"Hi," John said -or- "Hi," said John?

[WannabeWriter]

I notice two ways of identifying speakers in dialogue.

1. "I ran out," Kevin said.
2. "I ran out," said Kevin.

Are there pros and cons of either usage?

[blacbird]

The latter sounds old-fashioned to me, generally, although there might be context in which it would work appropriately. But if it's a question that really bugs you, go to a library or bookstore and see what other authors do in books similar to yours.

caw

[ORION]

I agree - read more -- each has its use. You can also make attributions ahead of the sentence depending on what your intent is.

[megan_d]

The latter sounds old-fashioned to me

That's interesting, as it's the first that sounds old fashioned to me.

[reenkam]

Personally, I use both and switch back and forth depending on which flows better in the sentence.

[plunderpuss]

I'm with reenkam. It has to do with flow, so it's a choice every time I write it.

[JJ Cooper]

Disagree with a couple of posters here. I think you should select one and keep it consistent throughout your work. I advise against swapping back and forth, as it can be distracting.

Personally - Name said.

[seun]

Disagree with a couple of posters here. I think you should select one and keep it consistent throughout your work. I advise against swapping back and forth, as it can be distracting.

Personally - Name said.

Agreed on all points.

[Dana-Lynn]

Nowadays, it seems to be more modern to use Name said. I agree that the other one seems old fashioned. I've also read where it's taboo now to switch back and forth from Name said to said Name throughout a novel. It can take the reader out of the story and make them notice that they are reading, and that's the LAST thing you want to happen.
:gone:

Either way you prefer to use it, though, consistency is the KEY. Pick whichever of the two that you like the most, and stick with it throughout the entire novel. Your readers will thank you for it.

;)

[Marlys]

I disagree with the "pick one and stick to it" crowd. While I tend to use "Name said" most of the time, there are instances where for flow or emphasis "said Name" is the better choice. Consider:

"Poor lad," the man who hadn't wanted to help me earlier said.
"Poor lad," said the man who hadn't wanted to help me earlier. [too much going on between subject and verb in the first example]

"I think we're all peasants at heart," the King of France said.
"I think we're all peasants at heart," said the King of France. [the punchline effect is lost in the "Name said" example]

Just out of curiosity: taboo according to what source?

[The Scip]

Disagree with a couple of posters here. I think you should select one and keep it consistent throughout your work. I advise against swapping back and forth, as it can be distracting.

Personally - Name said.

I agree with this too.

[johnzakour]

I am with the "said <name>" is old more old fashion crowd. (Or perhaps younger sounding.)

I'm also with the mix it up a bit crowd. I usually use "<name> said" but on occasion when it fits I will change it around. Nothing is taboo if you do it right.

[scribbler1382]

Mix it up. But don't get hung up on stuff like this. For the most part, as long as you stay away from swifties, attributions are invisible to the reader.

[hammerklavier]

It seems 'Name said' is overwhelmingly what most people use in common speach.

[Charlie Horse]

This is like asking whether you should wear button fly or zip ups. I say whichever is more comfortable for you. I do agree that you should be somewhat consistent throughout, but even on that point I don't think you need to obsess about it.

[PenDragon]

Replace "Name" with "He" or "She" and to me "said he" or "said she" sounds antiquated, possibly a bit goofy too. I stick with "Name said."

[IceCreamEmpress]

I disagree with the "pick one and stick to it" crowd. While I tend to use "Name said" most of the time, there are instances where for flow or emphasis "said Name" is the better choice. Consider:

"Poor lad," the man who hadn't wanted to help me earlier said.
"Poor lad," said the man who hadn't wanted to help me earlier. [too much going on between subject and verb in the first example]

"I think we're all peasants at heart," the King of France said.
"I think we're all peasants at heart," said the King of France. [the punchline effect is lost in the "Name said" example]

Just out of curiosity: taboo according to what source?

This is the right answer, in my opinion.

I don't think "Said she" or "Said he" are useful except in a book that's trying to give the flavor of a bygone age.

But "...said the man behind the counter" is always useful.

[LilliCray]

I always use "Name said." Something about "said Name" jolts me as both a reader and a writer out of whatever piece I'm reading/working on. Not that I'm... y'know... weird or anything. *hides*

[PenDragon]

But "...said the man behind the counter" is always useful.

I agree, but I think the original poster was looking for specific guidance on "Kevin said" vs "said Kevin." type tags.

[johnzakour]

I always use "Name said." Something about "said Name" jolts me as both a reader and a writer out of whatever piece I'm reading/working on. Not that I'm... y'know... weird or anything. *hides*

There are times when a little jolt is good. Like I said, most of the time I do go with <Name> said... But on occasion when it seems right I will do a switch.

[reenkam]

I just picked up a couple books and 4 of the 5 used both "said Name" and "Name said". So, it seems, either my books are anomalies, people don't like reading the books I read, or people actually don't notice when an author makes the switch...which should actually be the case, in my opinion.

[IceCreamEmpress]

I agree, but I think the original poster was looking for specific guidance on "Kevin said" vs "said Kevin." type tags.

Oh, agreed.

It's just that some people take rules and guidelines to an extreme. After the various "you must NEVER use an adverb" and "you must NEVER use passive construction" comments I've seen, I would hate for someone to take away "you must NEVER use 'said {someone}'" from this thread.

[MerryDay]

Well, if you need one more counter-opinion, I'm in the said Kevin camp. I think the whole point of using said as a dialogue tag is so that it's "invisible" to the reader. Personally, when the construction is inversed to Kevin said it doesn't have the same effect on me - I notice it, it doesn't always flow right, technically this messes up the punctuation of the sentence, etc.

And I'm all for switching it up a few times, if you find your syntax getting a little redundant. However, whichever you choose, it's best to only switch it up when you want your dialogue tag not to be "invisible." For a jolt, as it were.

[Bufty]

If 'said X' is good enough for Philip Pullman it's good enough for me and I can honestly say I never cared a toss which way it was written in any book I can recall reading.

And I had to check Pullman's novels to be sure which version he used.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Well, if you need one more counter-opinion, I'm in the said Kevin camp. I think the whole point of using said as a dialogue tag is so that it's "invisible" to the reader. Personally, when the construction is inversed to Kevin said it doesn't have the same effect on me - I notice it

I think that your response is pretty unusual. Most people find "Kevin said" less noticeable than "said Kevin".

How about at the beginning of a sentence? "Said X" at the beginning of a sentence really sticks out to me, unless it's in an historical novel. (Or a poem :) )

[MerryDay]

I think that your response is pretty unusual. Most people find "Kevin said" less noticeable than "said Kevin".

How about at the beginning of a sentence? "Said X" at the beginning of a sentence really sticks out to me, unless it's in an historical novel. (Or a poem :) )

Well, the beginning of a sentence is a totally different case. Of course that doesn't sound right. It's just directly after a quote, which was the question of this thread, that it bothers me...and, you know, it's just an opinion. Chalk it up to reading too many historical novels or classic lit, I suppose. Neither is right or wrong, it's just the writer's own taste and style, after all.

[Dana-Lynn]

I just picked up a couple books and 4 of the 5 used both "said Name" and "Name said".
Were those books you looked in written recently, like say in the last 2 to 3 years?




Just out of curiosity: taboo according to what source?

It was stated in an online tutorial I read. I found that info while doing a search through google for "said bookisms".
;)

[job]

I think that your response is pretty unusual. Most people find "Kevin said" less noticeable than "said Kevin".

I agree with this. 'said Kevin' will often intrude upon the reader's consciousness.
Sometimes you want that.

JoB

[Bufty]

Sorry, guys, I still think this is a storm in a teacup and that nobody knows beyond their own personal preference what other folk think or if 'most' folk even notice the difference. Each version can work fine and be equally invisible in the appropriate circumstances in which it's used.

I'm more interested in the story than in whether the writer chose to say said X or X said. I still can't recall a single instance of reading a published novel and thinking - Oh dear, he said 'said X' instead of 'X said' or vice versa.

[Matera the Mad]

<name> said is always going to pass by most smoothly, but sometimes you want a bit of fanfare, something to set off a particular statement with a dramatic flair, said Matera, flaunting her attitude.

[WannabeWriter]

I can name two MODERN novels that each use these two methods of identifying speakers. So far, I cannot see which one is better, but I agree that consistency is the rule. Right now, I'm leaning towards <NAME> said because I've been writing my novel that way and am getting used to it.

[Birol]

It's not a matter of one being "better" than the other. It's about what works. You can use both in the same story if you want. It's about rhythm and variation. <NAME> said and said <NAME> have a slightly different rhythm to them. Too many of either in row, with no narrative to break things up, get repetitive.

[Bartholomew]

I notice two ways of identifying speakers in dialogue.

1. "I ran out," Kevin said.
2. "I ran out," said Kevin.

Are there pros and cons of either usage?

There's no difference between the two, as "to say" is one of the few invisible words in written English. People just won't notice. At least, I don't.

What does effect the style and impact of your quote is where you put the speaker tag.

Consider this: you want to end your chapter or article with a fantastic quote.

#

"And then the quote fell out of the sky and hit us," said Leroy.

This construction forces you to end with the speaker tag, which is just kind of ugly. Fine for normal instances, but pretty icky at the end of a segment.

#

Leroy said, "And then the quote fell out of the aardvark's nose and exploded!"

This construction allows you to end on the quote, but now you've moved the speaker tag to a very conspicuous place, and it isn't resting there easy. There are stylistic instances where having your speaker tag here would be best, but the end of a segment isn't one of them.

#

Leroy's eyes twinkled in the setting sun as he put his arm around Moneypenny.

"And then the quote burbled out of the depths, clawing at the air above it."

This construction attributes your quote, without making the attribution get in the way of a snappy closing quote.

#

So, speaker tags DO effect things, but it's where the tag sits more than the order of the verb and subject.

The structure we've blessed in English is "Subject, Verb, Object" -- Jill Ran, as opposed to Ran Jill, though we can make sense of both.

By that logic, you should use Leroy said -- but really, either one work, as there is zero room to misinterpret that particular combination of verb and subject.

[Bufty]

This thread is one that keeps cropping up and reminds me of those dreadful documentaries that promise to find the answer to some question but end up reaching no conclusions, proving nothing and leaving one exactly where one was at the beginning of the programme, which confirms that there isn't really an issue at all.

Select and place all tags carefully, and they will do their work quietly and effectively.

[jannawrites]

Personally, I use both and switch back and forth depending on which flows better in the sentence.

Ditto. :)

[Exir]

Well, pretty much ditto. What's the difference between "he said" and "said he" as a dialogue tag?

[Bufty]

Nothing at all. Use what works for you, fits the tone of the piece, and
place it wherever it works.

Check some of the books on your shelf - I bet all variants of the tag are used.


Well, pretty much ditto. What's the difference between "he said" and "said he" as a dialogue tag?

[storygirl]

I tend to use "he said" instead of "said he" because it just flows more naturally for me. Both are correct.

[Nakhlasmoke]

Whichever works better rhythmically in context.

Say the sentence out loud, it'll give you an idea of whether it's working or not.

[Julie Worth]

I almost alwasy use the "he said" construction. Occsaionally it sounds better the other way, as in "Hi," said Maria Teresa Ramírez de Arroyo.

[dpaterso]

There's an older thread with more views on this subject: "<NAME> said" or "said <NAME>" (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94113)

It's likely the two threads will be merged.

-Derek

[jst5150]

Nouns come before verbs. :)

"said NAME" would be fine if you're adding more expository after the phrase. (i.e., "blah blah blah," said John, keely aware of his circumstances.

ETA: Something from Elmore Leonard to clear this up further: http://www.kabedford.com/archives/000013.html :)

jt

[Mumut]

If you do use "'xxx' said John" don't use it often and as Nakhlasmoke says, read it out loud and see if it sounds natural. It's most often used in poetry.

I've been told to stick to the "he said, she said" construct, but I like to vary it a bit. Sometimes people do "explain" or "shout" or "whisper". So do whatever sounds best.

[girlyswot]

For me, in that specific example, 'Hi,' John said sounds very clumsy. I'd either have: John said, 'Hi'; or 'Hi,' said John.

[Mayntz]

Also depends on what you're writing. With novels, I tend to see both options so I'd say pick what works better for you -- but remember you don't need a tag with every single line of dialogue! In nonfiction, though, generally it's "name said" with the name information is more vital and therefore belongs in a better place of priority. If you write for newspapers, this can be critical!

[Phaeal]

I prefer "John said," but "said John" doesn't bother me. "Said" is a hard-working, low-impact verb, almost invisible to the reader. I'd be more likely to break my reading stride over something like "screamed John" or "expostulated John."

[ChunkyC]

Well, pretty much ditto. What's the difference between "he said" and "said he" as a dialogue tag?
I've always felt that "said he" sounds a little more formal than "he said", which goes to the tone of the piece (as has been mentioned upthread).

[ishtar'sgate]

I hate tags so if I can find a way around them I will. I'd probably preface the greeting with action so I don't need the tag.
ie. John raised his hand and grinned. "Hi!" That's just me, though.
Linnea

[DoctorShade]

All things being equal I prefer "Hi" John said, because I think it makes it easier for the reader to ignore the repition of the word said.

In this "Hi" John said. The reader sees the John after it and automatically knows whose talking and can move on

With "Hi" said John. The reader is almost forced to read the 'said' first because it appears first.

ishtar'sgate- Don't most professionals belive it is amaturish to avoid tags? I saw a lot of people on this fourm hate it when someone uses chortled or chuckled or laughed because one cannot laugh a piece of dialouge.

[AncientEagle]

ishtar'sgate- Don't most professionals belive it is amaturish to avoid tags? I saw a lot of people on this fourm hate it when someone uses chortled or chuckled or laughed because one cannot laugh a piece of dialouge.

It isn't amateurish at all to avoid tags, as long as it's clear who's speaking. In fact, I'd say it's highly professional. What you're talking about is not avoiding tags, but using juvenile and unnecessarily descriptive tags.

[Bufty]

Doctor, you are splitting hairs to justify your own preference. There's nothing to justify.

The word 'said' is invisible and causes no upset no matter where you put it.

Using 'John said' will register exactly the same as 'said John'.

The only reason one uses one over the other is either one has a fixed preference or to the writer's ear one version 'sounds' better than the other in a particular sentence construction.

Of course the reader is forced to read the word 'said' before 'John' if that's where you put it - there is no almost. But there's no issue of what you call repetition - the eye and brain are perfectly capable of reading and absorbing two words ahead.

All things being equal I prefer "Hi" John said, because I think it makes it easier for the reader to ignore the repition of the word said.

In this "Hi" John said. The reader sees the John after it and automatically knows whose talking and can move on

With "Hi" said John. The reader is almost forced to read the 'said' first because it appears first.

[BlueLucario]

It makes no difference what order you write your tags in. I'm sort of used to said John

[dpaterso]

Just saying, the two similar threads have been merged, in case the sudden increased post count confuses anyone.

-Derek

[ishtar'sgate]

ishtar'sgate- Don't most professionals belive it is amaturish to avoid tags? I saw a lot of people on this fourm hate it when someone uses chortled or chuckled or laughed because one cannot laugh a piece of dialouge.
Ah, but I didn't say chuckled or chortled or laughed, I said grinned. Like this.:D Seriously, though, I've never heard tag avoidance called amateurish. Doesn't matter. I consider myself an amateur anyway as I've only sold one novel. Maybe when I've sold a dozen or so I'll consider myself a professional. In any case, it isn't that I never use tags, it's simply that I prefer for readers to see my characters acting as they would in real life. I know very few people who don't accompany words with actions or facial expressions so I like to put them in and let them do the work of tags when I can.
Linnea

[Constantine K]

I used "said Name" for my first book. Then I realized very few authors do this, so for the second draft I used "Name said." In the end, I don't think it matters as long as you stick with one or the other.

[Axelle]

Well, personally I use "Name said" most of the time, except when I want to relate Name to some other stuff like demonstrated previously in this thread ("I want to help you", said Name, who was just about to leave).

"Said Name" doesn't shock me at all, but then in my language it's always "said Name", never "Name said", so...

[CreativeDreamer]

I favor name said. But once I really get into a book and if the dialogue is well done, I don't really even notice the he said, she said. I'm there in the scene and I know who's speaking regardless!

[BlueLucario]

I use said X. I never once used the inverse version of it. And just now I realized that said x is not recommended. I know Rowling used it so that's kinda why I did it too. It's going to take me a while to get comfortable writing X Said.

[Birol]

Blue, you're going to have to start studying writers other than Rowlings. The woman knows how to weave a story and she's has tremendous success, but she's not the only author out there. You need to stop trying to model yourself and your storytelling style after her, expand your reading, and figure out how you, BlueLucario, write. It won't be like Rowlings. Only Rowlings can write like Rowlings.

As for the said x/x said, they are both perfectly acceptable. It's a matter of rhythm and flow.

There is a music to language. A beat. A harmony. A cadence. Listen for these things. Learn to hear them. They will help you determine whether to use "x said" or "said x," and so much more besides.

[dpaterso]

This thread had happily gone to sleep back in March, lordy knows why it's been bumped, there's no difference between said John and John said, use whichever your ear likes best or your fingers like typing.

Let's get some writing done! Hoo-ah!

-Derek

[Darzian]

"Blah blah blah," said Leon.

OR

"Blah Blah Blah," Leon said.


And also:


"Blah Blah Blah," exclaimed Leon, "Bli Bli Bli."

OR

"Blah Blah Blah," exclaimed Leon. "Bli Bli Bli."


And can someone tell me what you mean by 'period' ? I'm sure I know and use it but perhaps not by this term. It's mentioned frequently on this forum. Does it mean a full stop followed by a space or does it mean a new paragraph/line?

[Bufty]

Welcome,familiar thread, yet again.

A period is simply another name for a full stop. It appears at the end of every sentence.


"Blah blah blah," said Leon.

OR

"Blah Blah Blah," Leon said.

They both work. Sometimes one works better than the other, but try to be consistent.


And also:


"Blah Blah Blah," exclaimed Leon, "Bli Bli Bli."

OR

"Blah Blah Blah," exclaimed Leon. "Bli Bli Bli." This one is correct, the way you have done your blahs and blis.


And can someone tell me what you mean by 'period' ? I'm sure I know and use it but perhaps not by this term. It's mentioned frequently on this forum. Does it mean a full stop followed by a space or does it mean a new paragraph/line?

[Darzian]

Thank You! I don't mind if the mods delete the thread now.

Hmm. I'm supposed to be consistent? I usually alternate because sometimes one sounds better while in others the other sounds better.

Thanks

[Darzian]

I'm really sorry- this exact same questions is present on page 2 of this forum. I was in a rush and didn't check back. Sorry!!!!!!

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96915

[Bufty]

.:Hug2: I'm really sorry- this exact same questions is present on page 2 of this forum. I was in a rush and didn't check back. Sorry!!!!!!

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96915

[Telstar]

In general the subject-verb construction works best and it is my favourite style, also for longer sentences.

But in some cases the reverse can be better.