Space Marine and Dragonwrangler Bar & Grill

[amergina]

Hi all. Today is a day of cleaning, then eating (dinner w/ friends). But right now, the cats are passed out on me. This makes it hard to get coffee.

 

[Reservoir Angel]

Writing realistic characters tends to be one of the parts of the writing process that stumps me the most. I try, but most of the time they either end up as stereotypes or as shallow cardboard cut-outs to dumbly stumble their way through anything I decide I want to have happen.

*shrug* I'm just not all that good at what I do.

 

[CobraMisfit]

Writer Beware came to my rescue. Sketchy agent at a sketchy agency. I did not send the MS his way. This made me want to the Beware forum.

AW = awesomeness.

This.



Morning gang.

Whut up?

 

[maxmordon]

This is probably showing off my lack of writing talent or something, but I never get how this works. I hear people talking about how their characters surprise them... and I just look at them like they're crazy. It's not like you can't see characters' actions coming, you're the one writing them!

It just baffles me. Well, baffles me and makes me self-conscious because maybe that's what supposed to happen and I'm just not good enough for my own characters to do it.

Basically, it's like a jigsaw puzzle. You have laid down some basics, say the edges, and then while you develop the story you start seen which pieces fit. I was once surprised to find out a MC turned out to be a deeply-closeted gay man.

 

[CAMueller]

*shrug* I'm just not all that good at what I do.

Don't get discouraged. You're not expected to get it perfect the first time. Keep writing, keep editing, keep moving forward. The more you practice, the better you'll get at it.

 

[jallenecs]

*shrug* I'm just not all that good at what I do.

NONSENSE! You're just still learning. And I don't mean that in a "Oh, God, Angel's such a noob!" way. Every person on this thread (and anybody who has ever taken writing seriously) is still learning. I'm still learning. Tifferz and Hillz and Gina are still learning, for all they've been published. You show me a writer who says he knows it all, I'll show you a fool or a liar.

I struggled for years with characterization. I've always liked strongly plot-driven stories, so I never gave much thought to characters. But eventually I learned better, and worked on how I design my characters. And only in the last couple of years have I started giving as much attention to my villains as I did to my heroes, which probably explains why I tended to have "Snidely Whiplash Syndrome" in my writing.

Unfortunately, I can't tell you how to design a character. Everybody does it differently. Even I'm not sure how I do it. I can use the same tools to design two characters, but one will "click" with me and the other won't, and that unclicked character will never be more than words on a page.

Ask some of the others here. I'm sure they'd be more help.

 

[lilyWhite]

It's nice to read intelligent discussions about writing. =^_^=

I'll just sit over here because I really suck when it comes to saying anything smart about my writing process

 

[BigWords]

Write a character as if you know them. Then have them do something unexpected. That, pretty much, is character.

It can get more complicated than that, but... Really, that's all you need.

 

[hillaryjacques]

*shrug* I'm just not all that good at what I do.

Good writers don't simply pop into existence and crank out bestsellers. Like any skill, it takes practice to become a better writer. If it's worth it you will practice and study and get better. This is not a quick progression, and it doesn't mean that writing will ever feel easier. If you want easy or instant excellence, you need to look into another hobby.

 

[Raventongue]

Hey folks! Today I went to a human library. And... Made a life decision I've been flipflopping on for months even harder. Gah.

 

[Reservoir Angel]

Hey folks! Today I went to a human library. And... Made a life decision I've been flipflopping on for months even harder. Gah.

I have this mental image of the most middle-class escort service in the world right now.

"Hello madame, would you care to browse our... human library? I am sure madame will find something to pique her interest."

... that's not what it was, right?

 

[maxmordon]

I have this mental image of the most middle-class escort service in the world right now.

"Hello madame, would you care to browse our... human library? I am sure madame will find something to pique her interest."

... that's not what it was, right?

My thoughts exactly, like, you can pick a thick newfie redhead for the weekend...

Raven, have you seen a movie called Jacob's Ladder? I think you might like it.

 

[maxmordon]

And RA, don't feel bad. Writing is pretty much an excercise, the most you do it, the better you're at it.

 

[BigWords]

"Human Library" makes me think of The Braille Encyclopaedia by Grant Morrison. It's probably closer to horror than fantasy, but the concept of a "library" of people covered in braille tattoos of great works is soooo cool.

 

[eyeblink]

This is incidentally the absolute bane of my creativity. I want to write awesome things but the only live I've ever known is living in a small town in boring old England. And trust me when I say that nothing interesting happens here!

So for me, 'writing what I know' would be responsible for the creation of some of the most boring stories in the history of literature.

I don't agree. I live not very far from you, in Southern England, and I've lived in the same county (Hampshire) all my life. I even went to University (Southampton) in this county. Not wishing to boast, but I've sold stories set in this part of the world, in fictional versions of towns I've lived in, so maybe I haven't gone too far wrong.

Look around you. All human life is there. It's not the material but what you do with it that matters.

I don't know how other writers do it -- in the Cantina or otherwise -- but I try to really synch with my characters, know them very very well. Because, when it comes to write them,.... well, it's like playing chess with myself. I climb into this character's skin and write his part. Then I climb into the other character's skin and write HIS part. Like an acting exercise. And sometimes, when I get into his head, he's going a direction I didn't expect; but it's right for him, so I have to at least consider it.

Definitely agree with this - see my post earlier today about pantsing versus outlining.

Raven, have you seen a movie called Jacob's Ladder? I think you might like it.

Good one. The best thing Adrian Lyne ever directed (though compared to Nine 1/2 Weeks and Indecent Proposal, that's not saying a lot) based on a script which was regarded as one of Hollywood's best unfilmed scripts - before it was filmed, of course.

Folks, I'm exhausted. I've spent most of yesterday evening and most of today writing my four DVD reviews for Australia Day for The Digital Fix. All done and live on the site now. I now have 1000 reviews there, after just short of thirteen years contributing to them.

Time to chill out and watch TV for the rest of this evening. Full steam ahead on the SS story tomorrow. Oh, and a certain tennis final. And either Lincoln or Zero Dark Thirty if the tennis finishes in time.

See you later Cantina.

 

[Raventongue]

I have this mental image of the most middle-class escort service in the world right now.

"Hello madame, would you care to browse our... human library? I am sure madame will find something to pique her interest."

... that's not what it was, right?

Gods and goddesses no!

"Human Library" makes me think of The Braille Encyclopaedia by Grant Morrison. It's probably closer to horror than fantasy, but the concept of a "library" of people covered in braille tattoos of great works is soooo cool.

As awesome as it would be, that was not it either.

Okay, so a human library is when people with a lot of life experience and knowledge on a particular subject or range of subjects volunteer to become "human books" for the day. You go in and sign them out for a conversation a measured length of time long (in this case, 20 minutes) and just ask them questions and shizz about whatever it is they might know about that interests you.

So I spoke to three people, though only two were in any way coherent, the other rambled a lot but was at least amusing. The two coherent ones: Halifax's first and right now only female firefighter, who is awesome, and a naval officer with experience in like engineering and shizz, who uh... veered off script.

 

[CobraMisfit]

Good writers don't simply pop into existence and crank out bestsellers. Like any skill, it takes practice to become a better writer. If it's worth it you will practice and study and get better. This is not a quick progression, and it doesn't mean that writing will ever feel easier. If you want easy or instant excellence, you need to look into another hobby.

This.

Many times over.

 

[Kricket]

Okay, so a human library is when people with a lot of life experience and knowledge on a particular subject or range of subjects volunteer to become "human books" for the day. You go in and sign them out for a conversation a measured length of time long (in this case, 20 minutes) and just ask them questions and shizz about whatever it is they might know about that interests you.

So I spoke to three people, though only two were in any way coherent, the other rambled a lot but was at least amusing. The two coherent ones: Halifax's first and right now only female firefighter, who is awesome, and a naval officer with experience in like engineering and shizz, who uh... veered off script.

That sounds super cool.

 

[Raventongue]

PSYCHO!!!! *pounces* I missed youuuu!

Now get off my lawn!

Nevaaaaar.

I have come to the conclusion that I am thinking way too far ahead in this story. Time to draw it back a bit, I think.

I do that all the time. In life, too, but in writing, oh man.

I have a list of bullet points for each chapter (which I cheerfully ignore) and a file called 'Randomimity', which contains snatches of dialogue and description and things I can drop in at the appropriate moment, and another file called 'additions', which has little cool ideas or facts or things to add depth. I have other files to enable fact-checking as I write, so as to avoid continuity errors - a real problem in a war story that will, by the time it's done, be 800,000 words over three books!

This sounds pretty much exactly like what I do.

There needs to be a term for those of us who Pants some parts and Outline others.

There does!!

Damn annoying when I have a character talking, and no surrounding elements.

This happens to me often, or somtimes I will get two characters talking in a vacuum. Oi.

I ha tried lately to write based more in Venezuela than in my US-oriented constructed world, and it's amazing how smooth it feels.

I am very interested in reading this. I love seeing writing with a strong sense of place, and especially if that place is one I may not be familiar with.

'Tis part of why I write so much about like, nationality and Canadian national identity. My dream goal in that regard is to someday write something that people who have never been to Canada or so much as spoken to a Canadian can read and be like, "Wow, dude... I can totally relate."

Raven, have you seen a movie called Jacob's Ladder? I think you might like it.

I have! I in fact have a dystopian in a short story somewhat based on it.

Write a character as if you know them. Then have them do something unexpected. That, pretty much, is character.

It can get more complicated than that, but... Really, that's all you need.

Oh dewd! This means I am on the right track with characterization. Yey.

 

[Raventongue]

That sounds super cool.

'Twas super cool! Andrea, the firefighter, told me that she heard it's likely to become an annual thing, with a different selection of people each year, which would be downright epic.

That particular branch seems to have a lot more cool events than the other library branches in the city, they seem to have an especially good events coordinator or something.

 

[Reservoir Angel]

I don't agree. I live not very far from you, in Southern England, and I've lived in the same county (Hampshire) all my life. I even went to University (Southampton) in this county. Not wishing to boast, but I've sold stories set in this part of the world, in fictional versions of towns I've lived in, so maybe I haven't gone too far wrong.

Look around you. All human life is there. It's not the material but what you do with it that matters.

Okay, stuff may happen all the time in most peoples' lives that would make material for stories, but nothing happens in mine. Admittedly that's mostly my fault for being an anti-social shut-in who doesn't really get along with anyone who isn't at the other end of an internet connection, but still.

Also, now I'm slightly weirded out because I don't ever recall telling anyone here where I lived... I've said south of England but that covers quite a bit of possible ground.

*checks house for spy and recon smibbles*

 

[Andelana]

That sounds super cool.

This!

 

[Raventongue]

On character names: until I have one I'm happy with, I just grab whatever sticks so I can move forward with the story faster. The MC of this novella that's been frustrating me so much is a good example- now he's James, but for three months before that he was Derpwad. He's not actually a derpwad at all, I was just mad that I didn't have a better name picked out

It would be really, really embarassing to send it to an agent or something without having changed the names over first, but for awful brain-meltingly rough first drafts that only I am going to see, it gets the job done.

 

[Raventongue]

*checks house for spy and recon smibbles*

*steeples fingers villainously* It's not the smibbles you need to worry about... Bwahahahahaha...

 

[Kricket]

A halfway between pantsing and outlining...?

...shortsing?

That works.

I am proud to consider myself a pantyliner.


Waaaaait a minute...

And as far as character names I have this big ol' character name book that I use all the time. It's helped me come up with pretty good/original names. Like the four main characters of Dragons are: Sonya, Tal (Talina), Alvin and Jelani.

Although, after reading that article BW linked to I have to admit that I'm guilty of using Katherine as a MC's name. The character is Irish, so I thought it fit. :shrug: