Israel starts Gaza ground offensive

[clintl]

One thing Bloomberg didn't mention was that El Al planes have rocket defense systems onboard, and other airlines don't. So just because El Al thinks it's safe doesn't mean it's safe for any other airline. That was something that came up during the shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines plane.

 

[cornflake]

oh, i don't know... keep them under UN custody as evidence of the WAR CRIME (remember the term you guys love so much when it's leveled at israel) of storing munitions in a UN facility / school.

but we'll go ahead and put you down in the 'returning the weapons of terror to hamas' column.

I don't believe that's the job of the UN workers, especially the ones there - either to determine what may or may not be evidence of a war crime or to decide to collect such.

Also, if you're calling rockets weapons of terror, what's that make Israel?

I don't know how many carriers we have going to Israel, but it certainly upset Michael Bloomberg, so I may be on to something:

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/da...ael-tangles-wolf-blitzer-blog-entry-1.1877762

He doesn't like the idea of it being political, though .

Generally speaking, I think it was an obvious signal that there are economic ties to the world that Israel wouldn't like to see broken or sanctioned.

I think by actually putting through the ban, even just for 36 hours, we were sending that reminder. Kerry was over there negotiating at the time, so I bet there were some interesting discussions behind closed doors about the ban (and about lifting it).

Bloomberg is a teeny, tiny, ridiculous blowhard. It's economic ties of a few airlines though - and I've no idea, but I wouldn't think they're the preferred carriers for that route. When I fly internationally, I tend to find cheaper flights on airlines that are only stopping in the U.S., not originating, but may be me.

 

[William Haskins]

. . . And how do you propose that the UN do that? They don't have any armed units in there.

then just shoot em at the jews themselves and cut out the middle men.

 

[Xelebes]

then just shoot em at the jews themselves and cut out the middle men.

???

 

[William Haskins]

I don't believe that's the job of the UN workers, especially the ones there - either to determine what may or may not be evidence of a war crime or to decide to collect such.

Also, if you're calling rockets weapons of terror, what's that make Israel?

the IDF has done its share of abhorrent things, but the hamas rockets are solely used to shoot indiscriminately at civilians, which is the very definition of terror.

 

[backslashbaby]

...

Bloomberg is a teeny, tiny, ridiculous blowhard. It's economic ties of a few airlines though - and I've no idea, but I wouldn't think they're the preferred carriers for that route. When I fly internationally, I tend to find cheaper flights on airlines that are only stopping in the U.S., not originating, but may be me.

Well, that would be up to other countries to ban their flights there, yes. Given that we are known as Israel's best supporter, I bet they were surprised to see us do it first.

 

[kaitie]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/24/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html

Looks like Israel hit a school being used as a shelter by the UN, after it had been informed twice by the UN that it was being used as a shelter, and that they were attempting to arrange evacuations. 200 injured,16 killed, most people women and kids.

I think it's worth it to watch the video.

These weren't fighters. They were families and kids trying to find a safe place to go in an area that has been hit hard.

 

[benbradley]

Oh dear, rockets that have about as much chance of getting through Israeli's air defences as a one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest,

If they're so ineffective, why does Hamas keep firing them?

How much of a "disproportionate response" would Israel have to do to make Hamas stop?

(okay, sorry, those are impertinent questions...)

I decided to look up these "rockets" and Israel's defense system - Iron Dome has only been operational in the last three years, and is largely (okay, mostly) funded by the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome

This describes the rockets Hamas fires at Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grad_rocket

I'm wondering if these are solid-fuel or "ready to go," and if firing a gun at one of these (especially into the rocket engine where the bullet could hit the fuel) in a "hiding place" could make it and the rest of the stash fire off, resulting in some dramatic fireworks.

 

[William Haskins]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/24/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html

Looks like Israel hit a school being used as a shelter by the UN, after it had been informed twice by the UN that it was being used as a shelter, and that they were attempting to arrange evacuations. 200 injured,16 killed, most people women and kids.

I think it's worth it to watch the video.

These weren't fighters. They were families and kids trying to find a safe place to go in an area that has been hit hard.

20:15 GMT: Regarding the deaths at the UNRWA school in Beit Hanoun, UNRWA Spokesman Chris Gunnes tells i24news: "We're not pointing the finger of blame at either side. We need a credible and timely investigation." Gunnes also tells i24news that no UNRWA employees were killed in the incident, although he does not know about injuries. This contradicts an earlier statement by UN chief Ban Ki-Moon who reportedly said: "Many have been killed -- including women and children, as well as UN staff." Gunnes also told i24news that the IDF had the precise coordinates of the school but that approval never came from the IDF to evacuate civilians. The IDF claims that it did offer a 4-hour window to evacuate.

....

15:27 GMT: Israel is blaming Hamas for the death toll at the UNRWA school in Beit Hanoun. "Israel Defense Forces told the Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA’s shelter in Beit Hanoun between the hours of 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. today. UNRWA and the Red Cross received the message," read a statement by IDF spokesperson's unit.

"Hamas prevented civilians from evacuating the area during the window that the IDF gave them."

Netanyahu's spokesman added that "​The IDF is examining the possibility that the UNRWA school in Beit Hanoun was hit by a rocket that was fired by Hamas in that area."

http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israe...61-140723-liveblog-no-gaza-ceasefire-in-sight

 

[William Haskins]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/24/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html

Looks like Israel hit a school being used as a shelter by the UN...

from your own link above:

It's unclear who was behind the strike. The Israeli military said it was "reviewing" the incident and told CNN that a rocket fired from Gaza could have been responsible. Sometimes, rockets from Gaza fall and explode, and that could have been the case here, the military said.

 

[William Haskins]

UNRWA also acknowledged on Thursday that Hamas fired into the Beit Hanoun area, where the agency’s school was hit, according to Israel’s Channel 2 News.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/2...chool-may-be-from-hamas-rocket-falling-short/

 

[Xelebes]

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/2...chool-may-be-from-hamas-rocket-falling-short/

The U.N. said the strike occurred as staff members were trying to arrange a humanitarian pause in the hostilities so they could evacuate the civilians from the compound in the northern town of Beit Hanoun. The Israeli military said it was reviewing the incident and suggested Hamas rockets may have been to blame, although it offered no proof.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...a-school-killing-at-least-15/article19737535/

 

[kaitie]

from your own link above:

Not in the original likn, so they must have changed it.

 

[robeiae]

Good to see the UN hasn't picked a side...

 

[nighttimer]

At this point when everyone on both sides is wading in blood and gore up to their knees, why does it matter so much which side is worse when all that matters is who will finally decide to stop the killing?

 

[kaitie]

Seriously.

 

[robjvargas]

At this point when everyone on both sides is wading in blood and gore up to their knees, why does it matter so much which side is worse when all that matters is who will finally decide to stop the killing?

Yes. It's time to find an answer that works. Figuring out who is to blame only begets more rockets. From both sides.

 

[Perks]

I have tried and tried to read up on the history of the religious-political issues behind the seemingly endless and hopeless violence in the region. I read and check sources and try to be rational and objective and it all gets scrambled with frustration, disgust, and incomprehension.

This is a tangle I'm not sure I'm willing to cultivate a firm opinion-comb for. I only feel terribly for all the people prevented from living a productive life, the generations pinned in by insurmountable hurdles to the pursuit of happiness.

Then I ran across this video today. Hmmmm.

http://vimeo.com/50531435

 

[raburrell]

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/2...chool-may-be-from-hamas-rocket-falling-short/

The IDFSpokesperson account says rockets have come from Hamas in that area in recent days (today included); it has not said rockets came from the area at that time.

There's a good summary of the relevant tweets here: http://www.vox.com/2014/7/24/5933819/gaza-un-school

The Times and other reporters in Gaza have been unable to independently verify any claims of responsibility for the destruction at the school. However, witnesses suggest that the UN facility was struck by shells, possibly from a tank (which would imply Israeli responsibility):

https://twitter.com/kristenchick/statuses/492362196546908160

IDF has implied a Hamas rocket may have misfired and hit school at Beit Hanoun. Witnesses described multiple explosions from tank shelling

Latest information says they are focusing on a 109mm shell, which would also imply Israeli fire.

But all that aside, basically, what nighttimer said.

 

[Prozyan]

Its sad to say, but the only way this will end is when one side annihilates the other or when a third power greater than either conquers both and imposes forced peace.

History has shown neither group is willing to live with nor tolerate the other.

 

[Torgo]

Yes. It's time to find an answer that works. Figuring out who is to blame only begets more rockets. From both sides.

*slaps forehead* Of course!

Look, I just deleted 800 words here, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Synonym]

After wading through the Hamas Covenant I had to rethink a few things. My first misconception was that Hamas had somehow 'taken over' the people of Gaza. Not so much, it seems, as they are the self-proclaimed, hard-line, 'militant arm' of the people of Gaza, and Palestinians in general.

Now I see them as something resembling an insidious, opportunistic organism that slowly drains the vitality from it's host (country or group of people), moving on to infect the next victim as the first expires. As these organisms have no care for human life, (beyond the ability to feed and multiply from the hosts), I can only agree with that earlier assessment. They are crazy.

Egypt proved to be too resistant to the strain that attempted to infiltrate their country. I wonder if they know how close they came to watching their society collapse under this insanity?

I see no desire for peace, or the hope for any concessions that will satisfy them, until every last Jew is dead. Do you?

 

[Xelebes]

End the utility of Hamas and a more moderate government will form.

Arab Spring largely arose from rising food prices in the MENA. Egypt's population is precipitiously large, and is very sensitive to prices in food. Ousting Mubarak and replacing thim with the Muslim Brotherhood was largely an appeal to Allah to make the harvests more plentiful. Harvests rebounded in the region and the army, backed by some means the US, kicked them out.

Density on arable land:

Egypt = 2967
Japan = 2887
Israel = 2409
Jordan = 2229
Indonesia = 1170
UK = 1128
China = 953
India = 777
Germany = 682
Iraq = 587
Nigeria = 569
Syria = 464
Iran = 376
France = 353
Turkey = 335
USA = 180
Canada = 68

 

[TheMathematician]

I think the people who push back against the Israel defenders fully realize that Hamas is a terrorist organization who does terrible things, but the seemingly blind, unquestioning support for Israel and the incessant defending and rationalization of their also terrible actions leads people to argue from the other side, without intending to defend the actions of Hamas.

Speaking on a more personal level, if you want to measure yourself against Hamas to feel more righteous you're going to look pretty silly. Israel has done a lot of awful things throughout this conflict, and Hamas doing even worse things doesn't justify it.

 

[Lillith1991]

I think the people who push back against the Israel defenders fully realize that Hamas is a terrorist organization who does terrible things, but the seemingly blind, unquestioning support for Israel and the incessant defending and rationalization of their also terrible actions leads people to argue from the other side, without intending to defend the actions of Hamas.

Speaking on a more personal level, if you want to measure yourself against Hamas to feel more righteous you're going to look pretty silly. Israel has done a lot of awful things throughout this conflict, and Hamas doing even worse things doesn't justify it.

Nothing can justify the killing of innocents, by either side. The fact remains that if Hamas didn't hide munitions in schools, moseques, and hospitals, Israel would have not even a semi legit reason to target them. And that is what gets me, Israel is using a proven military tactic. If you can you try to wipe out any enemy weapons stores you know of, and that is what they do buy bombing such places. I don't defend they're killing the innocents they have, but to speak out against what they're attempting to do in reality feels disingenuinous to me. The killing hurts my heart, and I can't help but think the deaths are just as much the fault of Hamas as they are the fault of Israel.