Rough subject: Thank you for your comments, folks

Status
Not open for further replies.

kkbe

Huh.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
5,773
Reaction score
1,687
Location
Left of center
Website
kkelliewriteme.wordpress.com
I have a question. . .let me preface it. I wrote a novel, Cherry. I've posted some on SYW. The mc is a guy, not such a nice guy. He's twice-divorced, drinks, blah blah. He ends up picking up a kid one night (the "kid" is 18, fyi), a male prostitute, and winds up having sex, then he's enamored with the kid. He can't figure it out.

Anyway.

At one point, he rapes this person. This is how I handled it: He's drunk. It's after the fact. He recounts, in his journal, the events that led it up to it. He's pretty explicit about what he wanted to do, but the actual rape isn't described. He says, "And I. . .and then I. . .my God."

Later, he finds out the kid cried and cried, had to use laxatives for a week. . .

The guy really regrets what he did. The kid still loves him.

Anyway, here's the thing: I've had a few people read the novel and one comment is, Your mc is despicable and what he did is unforgiveable. He should die at the end. Kill the son-of-a-bitch. Or. . .take out the rape, totally. Take it out because "I know somebody who was raped," or "I was raped" (I understand the visceral responses) or "Agents won't touch that with a ten foot pole. . ." (Some, I’m sure; but all?)

I’m cognizant of how reading about a rape might really affect some people. I certainly don’t want to cause anybody pain. I did my best to handle it with restraint. . .

Still. . .

I think it’s important to keep it in my story. It defines the mc, it’s integral to the story and shaping the relationship between him and the kid.

So, my question is: what does the AW community think?
 
Last edited:

defcon6000

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
5,196
Reaction score
696
Location
My shed
Get new beta readers. :D

If the rape is integral to the story/character development, then keep it. Does it make the character unlikable? Yes, but I'm assuming he tries to redeem himself of this deed, am I correct?

But as for agents not touching the story? Pssh. Plenty of novels out there that contain rape, and in much more detail than what you have. It's a touchy subject, and obviously it won't be for everyone, but it's not that the sort thing that would prevent your novel from being published.
 

FalconMage

Rob J. Vargas
Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Messages
218
Reaction score
17
Location
Midwest, USA
I'm always reminded of Grifters. I think the movie made it even more so.

There isn't a likable character in the plot. All are running cons. In the end, the mother kills her son and takes his stash to get away.

I felt dirty at the end of the movie, but the characters were real for me, and their crooked lives mattered to the plot. So I thought it was well made, even if unenjoyable.

If you're going to "go there," you'd better bring your A-game. Because you're not going to stop hearing what you're hearing. I know of a lot of victim's advocates that automatically condemn a story where the victim reconciles with (or, in your case, continues to love) their rapist.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. But if you can... just make sure the pie is worth the wait.
 

Amadan

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
8,649
Reaction score
1,623
If you put rape in your novel, especially if the rapist is not portrayed as an inhuman monster, you're going to get flaming one-star reviews. If this bothers you, yes, take it out.

The Hand of Authorial Justice does not have to descend on every despicable protagonist to reassure readers that the author knows that he did a bad thing.

But, if your protagonist rapes, some people will think he's absolutely irredeemable and will be outraged if he doesn't come to a horrible end. It's not a particularly nuanced reaction, but you'd just better accept that someone who might see their own rapist still walking around today without ever having been punished or even censured is not going to appreciate your protagonist getting away with the same thing, even if your MC feels really, really guilty about it afterwards.

And if your book has a fluffy, happy ending with the man and the boy in love and having lots of hot sex, you probably will get a lot of people side-eying you and writing scathing reviews about how you think rape is romantic.

You're dealing with a rough subject, that means you'll be fair game for rough handling in reviews. I'm not saying don't do it or you shouldn't do it, just don't think you can touch this live wire in some magical delicate way that will offend no one.
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,213
Reaction score
15,825
Location
Australia.
You've written the novel. It's in there. I don't understand why you'd ask the question.



ETA: I didn't mean that to sound as dismissive as it does. I mean - if you've written the character, then surely you've done the thinking. You surely wouldn't have written such an egegious character and such an egregious act without considering the weight that would give to the book. So - assuming you've done the thinking already, you just have to stand by what you've done. It's no light thing, to be sure - but if you haven't treated it lightly, then there's no way you'll be able to just excise it without fundamentally destroying your theme. Hence my confusion.

If it is a light matter to pull it out of the book then I suspect it has no place being there...
 
Last edited:

leahzero

The colors! THE COLORS!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
2,190
Reaction score
377
Location
Chicago
Website
words.leahraeder.com
Rape is one of those crimes so heinous that it can taint someone forever. For many people it's easier to forgive--or at least empathize with--a murderer than a rapist, especially when the victim of rape is someone particularly vulnerable, like a young person. There is a lot of human psychology that goes into this, and I'm not going to get into it here.

If your MC is a rapist, then you have a HUGE burden of showing his guilt, repentance, and atonement if you want to make him sympathetic. Consider Humbert Humbert in Lolita: he is essentially a child rapist, yet it's possible to like and empathize with him, even while condemning his actions. Nabokov brilliantly showed the internal torment that drove HH, his futile attempts to suppress his pedophilia, and later his deep remorse and ultimate undoing. It also helps that the narrative is framed as a jailhouse confessional: when the going gets squicky, we have a sense that some kind of justice was eventually rendered.

If your story is about a rapist, then it's about a rapist. But it's such a huge, character-defining, game-changing thing that I think the story has to revolve around the rape and its repercussions and can't be treated lightly. Some people, constitutionally, will simply never tolerate it, and you have to accept that. There are plenty of people who can't stand reading about cruelty toward children or animals, either.

And I think yes, absolutely, having an MC who rapes someone inherently limits the commercial potential of the story. How much it's limited depends heavily on the execution. Is it a story of remorse and redemption? Then it would have broader appeal. We love tales of redemption. Is it a bleak, gritty story of him getting away with it, whether socially or psychologically? That's a harder sell. Feel-bad stories have less appeal.

If your readers are reacting so negatively to the MC, perhaps you're not portraying the material and psychological consequences adequately. I can handle a rapist MC; what I can't handle is rape treated without adequate gravitas. The impact it has on both victim and perpetrator is just way too significant. An author who treats it lightly clearly doesn't understand sexual abuse, and is probably not going to say anything interesting, edifying, or illuminating about it, IMO.
 

Amadan

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
8,649
Reaction score
1,623
If your story is about a rapist, then it's about a rapist. But it's such a huge, character-defining, game-changing thing that I think the story has to revolve around the rape and its repercussions and can't be treated lightly.

I disagree with this - the fact that the character commits rape doesn't mean the entire book has to revolve around it.

But yes, for some people that will be an absolute dealbreaker.
 

HoneyBadger

terribly loud, emotionally distant
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
1,175
Reaction score
351
Location
Fort Wayne, IN
Website
twitter.com
I'm more nervous about their continued relationship post-rape than the rape itself. Regardless of how well you handle it, there will *always* be people who think you're justifying rape/abuse.
 

kkbe

Huh.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
5,773
Reaction score
1,687
Location
Left of center
Website
kkelliewriteme.wordpress.com
Really thoughtful comments, thus far. So. . .
Defcon6000: Does it make the character unlikable? Yes, but I'm assuming he tries to redeem himself of this deed, am I correct?

But as for agents not touching the story? Pssh. Plenty of novels out there that contain rape. . .obviously it won't be for everyone, but it's not that the sort thing that would prevent your novel from being published.

Yes, he does attempt to redeem himself. As for considering it a dealbreaker, that is a concern but not my main concern, not by a long shot.

FalconMage: If you're going to "go there," you'd better bring your A-game. Because you're not going to stop hearing what you're hearing. I know of a lot of victim's advocates that automatically condemn a story where the victim reconciles with (or, in your case, continues to love) their rapist. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. But if you can... just make sure the pie is worth the wait.

I can take the heat. Hopefully, I've brought my A game.

Amagan: And if your book has a fluffy, happy ending with the man and the boy in love and having lots of hot sex, you probably will get a lot of people side-eying you and writing scathing reviews about how you think rape is romantic.

You're dealing with a rough subject, that means you'll be fair game for rough handling in reviews. I'm not saying don't do it or you shouldn't do it, just don't think you can touch this live wire in some magical delicate way that will offend no one.

Agree with last part. I understand what you're saying. As for the first part: no, not fluffy. Not perfect. Not ridiculous. The guy contemplates suicide. I wouldn't cheapen or make lightly of it, no way.

mccardey: if you've written the character, then surely you've done the thinking. . .assuming you've done the thinking already, you just have to stand by what you've done. It's no light thing, to be sure - but if you haven't treated it lightly, then there's no way you'll be able to just excise it without fundamentally destroying your theme. Hence my confusion.

If it is a light matter to pull it out of the book then I suspect it has no place being there...

No, it's not put in there capriciosly. I asked the question because I wasn't sure if an mc who rapes an innocent--which is what Cherry is, pretty much, in spite of the fact that he sells himself for money--if the actions of such a person would be unforgiveable. Meaning, people would hate him, and not be able to reconcile the act, and by default, be a deal-breaker for the majority of readers.

leahzero: If your readers are reacting so negatively to the MC, perhaps you're not portraying the material and psychological consequences adequately. I can handle a rapist MC; what I can't handle is rape treated without adequate gravitas. The impact it has on both victim and perpetrator is just way too significant. An author who treats it lightly clearly doesn't understand sexual abuse, and is probably not going to say anything interesting, edifying, or illuminating about it, IMO.

Understood. I have not treated it lightly. Take my word on that. In that case, then, perhaps I'm getting my answer. . .

amadan: . . .the fact that the character commits rape doesn't mean the entire book has to revolve around it.

But yes, for some people that will be an absolute dealbreaker.

As for the first part of your comment: The rape is not the story, but it is integral to the. . .what do you guys call it? The arc of the character? He's imperfect. Not a nice guy, but he finds himself in the unique position of doing an altruistic deed. . .after such a unforgiveable one. He considers himself unloveable, does unloveable things, cruel things, but the kid loves him anyway. . .

I am getting this, some may not be able to get past the deed.

Honeybadger: I'm more nervous about their continued relationship post-rape than the rape itself. Regardless of how well you handle it, there will *always* be people who think you're justifying rape/abuse.

And that's the story, HoneyB. The relationship beyond that. You've reiterated the point, which is, some people will not be able or willing to look past that; they'll be angry because the guy doesn't get his ass kicked or die, right? Because, for some people, rapists deserve no less.
 

PPartisan

<><'ing for compliments
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
298
Reaction score
55
Location
UK
Website
werdpressed.wordpress.com
Whenever rape comes up in a novel I always think of J.M.Coetzee's Disgrace. The MC is a middle-aged white South African lecturer who has relations with a black prostitute, but times are changing...it's brilliantly subtle in the way his racism is conveyed actually. It's so subtle someone could miss it, it's very realistic. Anyway, I don't want to give too much away. There are two instances of rape in this novel. One is from the MC's perspective in regards to a black student, and he denies it was rape. He claims it was romantic and passionate, but the victim takes it to a tribunal. The second is more personal, and visceral, but isn't from his perspective.

I wont say anything else for fear of spoilers, even though I really want to! But any way, this book is grim from beginning to end. Not only is there rape, but racism and no warm fuzzy resolution. It deals with the aftermath and living with the after effects. The author won a Nobel Prize for Literature.

So...ignore them. Handling uncomfortable topics shouldn't be something an author should shy away from. If you find it difficult to write about something then I'd say you're doing something right. Although, if your objective is to sell plenty of books then it's a risky strategy. Then again, I love books I find challenging, so you may have a customer in me :D
 

HoneyBadger

terribly loud, emotionally distant
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
1,175
Reaction score
351
Location
Fort Wayne, IN
Website
twitter.com
Well, I don't know that rapists deserve to be brutalized or something, but I will tell you, as open-minded and loving of sick-ass fucked up shit as I am, I don't think rapists deserve love, particularly from their victim. I think rape is absolutely unforgivable, oh yeah for sure.

And with that, I'm off to enjoy a little light reading in re-reading The End of Alice, because that's the kind of shit I like to read for fun.

(And also the end of Lullabies for Little Criminals (which I enjoyed very much for a while there) got all mucky and preachy and on-the-nose and I stopped loving it so much, so don't write a fucked up book that gets all self-aware-ily redemptive at the end. Write a fucked up book that stays fucked up from the get-go and if it's well-written, interesting, and the characters have depth, you can make them rape little kids all day and people will still read your book.)
 

Literateparakeet

Nerdy Budgie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
1,386
Reaction score
226
Location
Seattle
Website
lesliesillusions.blogspot.com
Kkbe, based on the responses from your Betas, and what you wrote here...my guess is the problem is not that your book includes rape, but how you handle it.

It's possible that I have completely misunderstood based on too little information (I hope that is the case)...but from what you have given us here... It's little wonder the Betas were upset.

He says, "And I. . .and then I. . .my God."

Whoopie. Poor baby. Is this the sum of the creep's remorse?

Later, he finds out the kid cried and cried, had to use laxatives for a week. . .

Is THIS the sum of the the kid's reaction??? Because in real life it is going to be much more involved than that. You know that, right?

Let's talk PTSD, nightmares, psychosamatic pain...etc, etc...he's not going to get over it in a week with a good cry and a few laxatives. Not by a long shot.

The guy really regrets what he did. The kid still loves him.

Ok, this is a real touchy subject for me, so perhaps I shouldn't even post...but this absolutely disgusts me.

The rapist feels bad, poor baby, and the victim loves him. Disgusting.

As I said before, perhaps I don't have enough information to judge, but from the info you have given us, you seem to be justifying the rapist's behavior i.e., he's sorry and the boy loves him inspite of it. I find that revolting.

I am wondering if you understand enough about this topic to write about it...I think you should seriously consider the responses of your Betas...something is wrong. They might not be able to put their finger on it, but they are telling you something is really wrong here.
 
Last edited:

Lycoplax

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
353
Reaction score
32
Location
Yokosuka, Japan
A remorseful rapist can be a sympathetic character. I can get behind that. The part that seems to raise the most eyebrows is that the kid still loves his abuser. Sounds like a Stockholm Syndrome sort of thing to me. Or simply low self-esteem on the kid's part. A lot of abused people stay with their abusers (rape is an extreme, of course, but bear with me) because either they feel that they won't get anything better, or simple fear of rejection. Negative attention is still attention. And in the case of rape, there can be a very slippery angle. Some rapists may love the victim so much that they don't register that they're harming them. (A psychological fallacy, certainly) Some victims convince themselves that the rapist loves them to find some logical explanation for the abuse. (Also fallacious)

It sounds like you really need to define the kid's psychological position in order for people to make sense of a relationship they deem unbelievable. With such a controversial topic, you have an opportunity for great depth, but it takes work.

Hubby and I swore once that we'd never involve rape in our writing, as neither of us were comfortable with it. But a few years later we developed a pretty sociopathic antagonist, and we agreed it was within his character to do this, and it advanced the story appropriately. This guy wanted to break down a character psychologically, and rape is a pretty easy way to do that. So we took a deep breath, and trod with care.

Now, we made him clearly the bad guy, so it's pretty different from what you're doing. My point is, I have a little experience treading this subject in writing. Being a victim intensified the other character in our story. And while she is able to cope with her experience in time,(I feel the need to emphasize this part, as emotional recovery is generally a long and bumpy road) it is certainly not a 'happy ending' sort of recovery. She still bears a lot of physical and emotional scars that change her as a person.
 

Amadan

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
8,649
Reaction score
1,623
As I said before, perhaps I don't have enough information to judge, but from the info you have given us, you seem to be justifying the rapist's behavior i.e., he's sorry and the boy loves him inspite of it. I find that revolting.

I am wondering if you understand enough about this topic to write about it...I think you should seriously consider the responses of your Betas...something is wrong. They might not be able to put their finger on it, but they are telling you something is really wrong here.


I think it's kind of unfair to make assumptions about the author and the story based on two excerpted sentences. The fact that we've seen a single line of dialog does not mean that's the extent of the character's reaction.

But, Literateparakeet's reaction is one you will get from a fair number of readers.

I believe, both personally and in terms of literature, that anyone can, in theory, be redeemed. (By "redeemed" I mean made into a better person who is genuinely remorseful for what they've done and does their best to make amends.) I would not reject out of hand the idea of a rapist or a torturer or a child serial killer or a genocidal dictator seeking redemption and being the protagonist of a book.

But, many people will.

As I understand it, you have the boy remaining in a relationship with his rapist, and the story is a redemption arc for the rapist.

You can pull that off, but not for everyone. Some people will say, "No how, no way," and will absolutely refuse to accept a story where a rape victim has any kind of HEA or HFN with his rapist. If you can't accept that those readers are a lost cause for you, you'll have to change your ending. If you can, then you'll have to accept that you're going to have unpleasant things said about you and your book.
 

kkbe

Huh.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
5,773
Reaction score
1,687
Location
Left of center
Website
kkelliewriteme.wordpress.com
I think it's kind of unfair to make assumptions about the author and the story based on two excerpted sentences. The fact that we've seen a single line of dialog does not mean that's the extent of the character's reaction.

But, Literateparakeet's reaction is one you will get from a fair number of readers.

Yes and yes. I tried to be brief in my preface so I could get to my question. Perhaps, had I provided more information. . .

I've written a work of fiction which includes a heinous act and aftermath. My mc, David Brandt, isn't a wonderful guy, and he did a terrible thing.

The rape is important to the story for a number reasons: It is my mc at his worst, and it is the point in my story when he realizes he loves Cherry. That Cherry can ultimately forgive him speaks to the depth of love he feels for Dave, in spite of that heinous act, in spite of everything. Cherry's situation is unique in that he sells his body to men for money. For him, the worst, absolute worst part isn't the act of rape itself, but the betrayal he feels.

Cherry and Dave must to come to terms with that, as best they can, in their own, imperfect ways.

So.
 

HoneyBadger

terribly loud, emotionally distant
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
1,175
Reaction score
351
Location
Fort Wayne, IN
Website
twitter.com
It is my mc at his worst (1), and it is the point in my story when he realizes he loves Cherry (2). That Cherry can ultimately forgive him speaks to the depth of love (3) he feels for Dave, in spite of that heinous act, in spite of everything. Cherry's situation is unique in that he sells his body to men for money (4). For him, the worst, absolute worst part isn't the act of rape itself, but the betrayal he feels. (5)

A few issues, based *solely* on this:

1) MC at his worst. Okay, I'm with you.

2) After he rapes Cherry, he realizes he loves him? Nope. Cheats on him? sure. Hits him? Nope. We human beings do not treat people we love as being less than human, which is what abuse is, and have any expectation of "love." I mean, we do, but we're wrong when we expect that.

3) Love is not forgiving rape. Sure, Cherry's screwed up, but it doesn't mean he loves Dave that much; it means he's really fucked up.

4) This is bordering daaaaangerously close to "he was asking for it." I *know* you don't mean that at all, but I'd worry that a reader wouldn't.

5) I (thank Dawkins) don't have any personal experience in this arena, but I'm pretty sure rape in the context of a relationship is exactly that--a brutal assault (and if your gay hooker needs a week's worth of laxitives, it can only mean to me that it was a particularly brutal assault) and a betrayal. It's telling your "loved one" that you don't even see them as being a human being.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, a bad book, or even a bad premise, but it does make me very nervous that it's not going to be received well. Focusing on "love in spite of rape," I think is my issue.

Sorry, duder.
 

kkbe

Huh.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
5,773
Reaction score
1,687
Location
Left of center
Website
kkelliewriteme.wordpress.com
HoneyB., the physical assault was horrible.I said the worst part was the betrayal. The worst part.

I was unclear again. I said this is the point where Dave realizes he loves Cherry. I should have said, this was a pivotal point in the story. It is after this that Dave realizes he loves the kid. Not right after, but after.

I will accept your opinion that "Love is not forgiving rape." Will you accept mine, that "Love is forgiveness." Semantics. Albiet, important ones. Arguable, for sure. Perhaps another time?

Not to write my novel here, although doing so would probably answer a lot of questions. . .might I add that the act of rape was committed when Dave was out of control. Out of control. This is not an excuse, it is a fact. When he regains control, he realizes what the hell he's done. It's horrific.

Thanks for posting, everybody who has posted. I appreciate your comments very much. All right, I'm hitting the sack.
 

fireluxlou

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Messages
2,089
Reaction score
283
Yes and yes. I tried to be brief in my preface so I could get to my question. Perhaps, had I provided more information. . .

I've written a work of fiction which includes a heinous act and aftermath. My mc, David Brandt, isn't a wonderful guy, and he did a terrible thing.

The rape is important to the story for a number reasons: It is my mc at his worst, and it is the point in my story when he realizes he loves Cherry. That Cherry can ultimately forgive him speaks to the depth of love he feels for Dave, in spite of that heinous act, in spite of everything. Cherry's situation is unique in that he sells his body to men for money. For him, the worst, absolute worst part isn't the act of rape itself, but the betrayal he feels.

Cherry and Dave must to come to terms with that, as best they can, in their own, imperfect ways.

So.

I think HoneyBadger explained the issues with it better than I could. There is all kinds of problems with this (and I'm not saying that as a survivor just plot observations which HoneyBadger explained ever so well) it sounds like you want ever so badly for your MC to be seen as a loving awesome redeemable good guy who can sexually violate someone and be forgiven and go off into the sunset with his victim to live happily ever after, at the expense of his victim's pain and trauma.

There's an aura of victim blaming/slut shaming about this plot. And that you want to provide excuses that make it redeemable to rape for him to rape Cherry? Like you are turning the MC into the victim? I think some good advice is to do a lot of extensive research into rape survivors and communities and how they cope and react to situations and especially the sex industry & rape in the sex industry.
 

Amadan

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
8,649
Reaction score
1,623
I think HoneyBadger explained the issues with it better than I could. There is all kinds of problems with this (and I'm not saying that as a survivor just plot observations which HoneyBadger explained ever so well) it sounds like you want ever so badly for your MC to be seen as a loving awesome redeemable good guy who can sexually violate someone and be forgiven and go off into the sunset with his victim to live happily ever after, at the expense of his victim's pain and trauma.

Whoa, dude. That's an awful lot of inferences there.

I haven't read kkbe's story. I have no idea whether or not kkbe executes the redemption arc effectively, tastefully, or convincingly. It might be as fantastically faily as you're implying, but FWIW, I am not getting the sense that it's "Whee, rape followed by twu wuv!"

I think it's understandable that some people would reject the very idea of a rapist being redeemed, or a rape victim being reconciled to his rapist, but I think you're pushing it by suggesting that anyone who would even write such a story needs rape awareness education.
 

kkbe

Huh.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
5,773
Reaction score
1,687
Location
Left of center
Website
kkelliewriteme.wordpress.com
I'm getting a lot of opinions from my original question, for which I am grateful. They certainly run the gammot.

There have been a lot of assumptions made, too, and inferences, as Amadan noted. I want to tear through my novel, copying and pasting like a madwoman all manner of passages. . .

I shall restrain myself. I will say this, though: CHERRY is written as entries in my mc's journal over the course of one year. He writes about the rape and its aftermath as experienced from his perspective; filtered through his eyes. What Cherry experienced, he can only surmise.

Leahzero: If your story is about a rapist, then it's about a rapist.

Literateparakeet: Kkbe, based on the responses from your Betas, and what you wrote here...my guess is the problem is not that your book includes rape, but how you handle it.

Amadan: As I understand it, you have the boy remaining in a relationship with his rapist, and the story is a redemption arc for the rapist.

Fireluxlou: . . .it sounds like you want ever so badly for your MC to be seen as a loving awesome redeemable good guy who can sexually violate someone and be forgiven and go off into the sunset with his victim to live happily ever after, at the expense of his victim's pain and trauma.

I didn't say CHERRY was about a rapist. Nor did I say that David Brandt and Cherry ride off merrily together. Nor did I say that David Brandt is redeemed. Nor did I say that all people who read CHERRY found it unsatisfying because the rapist doesn't die.

Here's what I said:
I've written a work of fiction which includes a heinous act and aftermath. My mc, David Brandt, isn't a wonderful guy, and he did a terrible thing.

Yes, he does attempt to redeem himself.

The guy contemplates suicide. I wouldn't cheapen or make lightly of it, no way.

At one point, he rapes this person. The guy really regrets what he did. The kid still loves him. . .I've had a few people read the novel and one comment is, Your mc is despicable and what he did is unforgiveable. He should die at the end. Kill the son-of-a-bitch. Or. . .take out the rape, totally. Take it out because "I know somebody who was raped," or "I was raped" (I understand the visceral responses) or "Agents won't touch that with a ten foot pole. . ." (Some, I’m sure; but all?)

I’m cognizant of how reading about a rape might really affect some people. I certainly don’t want to cause anybody pain. I did my best to handle it with restraint. . .

Still. . .

I think it’s important to keep it in my story. It defines the mc, it’s integral to the story and shaping the relationship between him and the kid.

So, my question is: what does the AW community think?

Now, I know.
 
Last edited:

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,213
Reaction score
15,825
Location
Australia.
So, my question is: what does the AW community think?

Now, I know.

Well, no. Now you know what some in the AW community think, based on the information you gave them, filtered - as it has to be when it's stuff about the book, rather than the book itself - through their understanding of how you're likely to have treated it in the writing.

You asked an unanswerable question: what does the AW community think about whether this incident has a place in a book they haven't read?

We'd need to read the book to be able to form an opinion. And, again - if we didn't like it, would you take it out? Then - take it out. Or not. Your book, your choice.
 
Last edited:

Lycoplax

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
353
Reaction score
32
Location
Yokosuka, Japan
I think it's pretty much assured that since the topic of rape is so sensitive, there are people who will never see past the fact that it is there. I imagine a lot of people are going to infer what isn't there, simply out of their own strong feelings on the matter. (Not that I don't have strong feelings about it, myself, but there's having feelings and then there's getting incensed)

kkbe, If this story is really important to you, you can shrug off the feedback that isn't of any use to you, and carry on making it the best it can be.

I believe that you are capable of getting this story the way it should be. As mccardey says, we haven't read the book. As you've said, there are passages you'd like to copy and paste. Your story tells something that we can't see here.
 

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
460
Location
United States
Do the MC and Cherry end up together in the end? Is it portrayed as a positive relationship?

For me, the issue with Cherry forgiving the MC is less that he forgives and more that just because you forgive someone for hurting you, that doesn't always make it a good idea to stay with them. I think it would be very difficult for me, as a reader, to see a continued sexual relationship between these two as healthy.

This is obviously a sensitive subject, and I think it's one that deserves to be handled carefully. I do think it can be done well. I don't think there's anything wrong with writing about a character who's a rapist. But it is worth being careful and deliberate about your choices, because while I don't think your story is necessarily victim blaming or justifying the rape, this is the sort of plot that will make people worried about that.
 

kkbe

Huh.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
5,773
Reaction score
1,687
Location
Left of center
Website
kkelliewriteme.wordpress.com
I knew when I wrote "Now, I know," I knew, I knew, I knew that that generalization was gonna turn around and bite me in the ass, as well it should have.

Without having read my book, one can only surmise. That's right.

Rape is a sensitive issue, no doubt about that. In my novel, it is not presented lightly. I took great care to give it the import that it demands. I certainly didn't trivialize it. At the same time, I had to be true to my characters. It's a double-edged sword.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.