Alienating male (or female) readers? (sexism in YA reading habits)

[totopink]

Does anyone else worry that when you write your work is very heavily written towards one sex without meaning it to be?

In the new project I'm working on I am writing it in 1st person and the MC is a female and although I'm not writing overly gushy teen girl romance or anything like that I can't help but feel that those two things alone will alienate the average male reader.
I feel like the plot itself is very unisex but I can't think of any YA books I've read that have featured a female MC and are written in 1st person that aren't typically seen as 'books for girls'. (Also if anyone can recommend me some YA books that aren't this way I'd really appreciate the suggestion)

 

[Sage]

Unfortunately, it is difficult to sell books featuring female MCs to teen boys. That's just the way it tends to be. Girls are more likely to pick up books featuring male MCs than the other way around.

 

[veinglory]

I guess Stephanie Meyer didn't let that stop her. I mean, finding an audience is the key--I am not sure how much it matters which audience so long as it isn't limited to a tiny niche.

 

[jmlee]

To be frank, it's hard to sell me a grown-up book featuring a woman my age as a MC, much less something on a YA shelf. I'm just not interested. I don't relate, but worse than that, most of the time I just don't care. A female character has to have a certain level of overlap with my reality for me to even be able to understand what's so interesting about what she's going through.

That said, I'm trying to think of books (not just YA) with female MCs that I got behind. I followed Anita Blake (Hamilton) for a long time until it got so caught up in the love triangle and less about other stuff that I wanted to barf (doesn't help that I thought both of the main dudes were lame... Team Death, I guess). I am interested in a few, but not many, of the female leads in SoIaF. Hunger Games was tolerable. Silence of the Lambs? Girl with the Dragon Tattoo?

I don't consider myself an unromantic person, but it takes a LOT for me to get invested in a fictional relationship from a female MC's perspective, and a lot of times I feel like books with female MCs are centric around a relationship. I'm okay with being in a female MC's head when she is in love with whoever, but when it overwhelms the plot I get bored. There has to be something else going on.

Behold. My rambling, unhelpful post. Sorry.

ETA: I re-read my post and I'm worried about coming off as a douche. It's not that I'm not interested in female characters unless they're kicking ass in some espionage catsuit wearing 6" heels or something. I'm just not into books that are centered around a romance or a relationship. The romance has to be accompanied by a non-romantic plot of equal plot value. And I just find that in many books featuring female MCs, the romance part is 80% or more of the plot and the rest of it is just "details."

ETA2: I wish I hadn't written this post. I wish I had just said nothing. I misphrased in an attempt to be honest and I apologize to everyone. Since it's been quoted there's no point deleting it, but the disclaimer remains here. That's all. I've since lost a night's sleep and embarrassed myself and now I'm just going to go away and read 20 million books.

 

[TikaaniM]

To be frank, it's hard to sell me a grown-up book featuring a woman my age as a MC, much less something on a YA shelf. I'm just not interested. I don't relate, but worse than that, most of the time I just don't care. A female character has to have a certain level of overlap with my reality for me to even be able to understand what's so interesting about what she's going through.

That said, I'm trying to think of books (not just YA) with female MCs that I got behind. I followed Anita Blake (Hamilton) for a long time until it got so caught up in the love triangle and less about other stuff that I wanted to barf (doesn't help that I thought both of the main dudes were lame... Team Death, I guess). I am interested in a few, but not many, of the female leads in SoIaF. Hunger Games was tolerable. Silence of the Lambs? Girl with the Dragon Tattoo?

I don't consider myself an unromantic person, but it takes a LOT for me to get invested in a fictional relationship from a female MC's perspective, and a lot of times I feel like books with female MCs are centric around a relationship. I'm okay with being in a female MC's head when she is in love with whoever, but when it overwhelms the plot I get bored. There has to be something else going on.

Behold. My rambling, unhelpful post. Sorry.

I agree with this which is why I avoid books with female MCs. I think they do not stick to the plots, or if it's suppose to be action or something, they stray too much from the fighting and mission. In my own work that's why I prefer to have a male MC. I really do not like mixing the genders neither, like a group or something there is a female unless she's like that chick from Resident Evil.

 

[missesdash]

This thread smells like patriarchy tbh

 

[suki]

I can completely understand where jmlee and TikanniM are coming from.

It is so very special and different to be a man. So special that a female character really could have nothing, absolutely nothing of value to offer. Any female character. Men are just that complicated and special and complex...they really can pretty much only read about men. Yup.

(And people wonder why some teen boys shy away from reading books by and about girls. And why they grow into men who are likewise myopic).

News flash, boys, you not all that special.

(And if anyone wants to slap my wrist for this post, knock yourself out. I'll take it like a woman).

~suki

 

[Niiicola]

This topic fascinates/frustrates me to no end. How come women watch movies and read books about men but men just aren't interested in stuff concerning women? People made a big fuss about Bridesmaids finally crossing the divide, but I still doubt it's going to revolutionize the film industry.

There are a few male authors that really put me off as being too man-ego-ish, like Will Self and Michel Houellebecq and to some extent, Hemingway. But that's really more about the tone/themes than the characters being guys.

Jmlee (and any other guys reading), if you were sure that a book about a girl wasn't centered around relationships or too feelingsy, would you still want to read it? What else about makes you not want to read, or is it just a general assumption that chicks aren't that interesting?

 

[kuwisdelu]

I guess Stephanie Meyer didn't let that stop her. I mean, finding an audience is the key--I am not sure how much it matters which audience so long as it isn't limited to a tiny niche.

Yep. And middle-aged housewives are a pretty-good-sized audience.

Sorry, sorry, couldn't help it.

This thread smells like patriarchy tbh

I agree, but I feel unqualified to speak for what teens are into these days.

 

[suki]

And for the OP's original question, you can't write a book that will appeal to everyone. Write your story. Once you start trying not to alienate anyone, you've lost your way.

~suki

 

[Niiicola]

This thread smells like patriarchy tbh

*sniffsniff* I was wondering what that was.

 

[scottprotege]

This thread smells like patriarchy tbh

I agree.

I've got no problem with female MC's. I rather enjoyed Hunger Games. The relationship aspect was a bit much in the second two books in the series though, it pulled away from the story for me. Maybe I have just not read enough of these types of books to really know.

My first WIP is 1st person with a female MC and I plan to keep the lovey dubby to a minimum. I don't foresee having any problems keeping the story unisex, sticking to the plot, and staying on track with the mission. Only time will tell though.

 

[veinglory]

Yep. And middle-aged housewives are a pretty-good-sized audience.

Sorry, sorry, couldn't help it.

Apart from the fact she has a friggin' huge audience clearly not that limited--you have an issue with home-makers why?

This whole thread is heading into dank pits of misogyny, it seems.

Me, if I had to pick a gender to appeal to, I would pick females. They buy more books. And that's not a gendered assumption but an empirical fact.

 

[kuwisdelu]

In general, I prefer love stories to action. I did in my later teens, too.

However, most of my favorite authors and novels seem to have male narrators.

I think it's just a coincidence, since I sure don't mind female narrators, and I'm fine with relationships, as long as it isn't a (genre) romance.

ETA: I was almost going to say one of my favorite novels as a teen was Wuthering Heights until I remembered it was narrated by a man...

 

[suki]

This whole thread is heading into dank pits of misogyny, it seems.

Me, if I had to pick a gender to appeal to, I would pick females. They buy more books. And that's not a gendered assumption but an empirical fact.

QFT. On both points.

~suki

 

[jmlee]

Look, I felt like totopink was asking an honest question about whether or not a dude is going to feel alienated by a female MC. And I'm trying to answer the question honestly, from my personal experience, without feeling like I have to worry about being judged for saying... no, I'm not really terribly engaged by most books featuring a female MC. With reasons why. Personal opinion.

Ohhhh well, too late.

Jmlee (and any other guys reading), if you were sure that a book about a girl wasn't centered around relationships or too feelingsy, would you still want to read it? What else about makes you not want to read, or is it just a general assumption that chicks aren't that interesting?

Of course I'd read it. I think chicks are totally interesting. I will start to read any book, whether it's got a female MC or a male MC or a whatever MC. If it looks good, I'll read it. If the plot is neat or the character has a great voice, I will try it out.

For me, it's when things start to be overwhelmingly relationship/romance-oriented - and this TENDS but IS NOT ALWAYS to be with female MC books - I get bored. It's not even that I'm like "ew gross." I'm just not interested in romance. It's not my thing.

And I don't even have a problem with touchy-feely feelings. Hell, my favorite book is DEMIAN by Hermann Hesse and it's all about feelings.

AND I don't even hate all romances. Missesdash might think I smell like patriarchy, but I was 100% invested in the relationship in her book, which has a first person female MC.

Sooo I'm not saying it's an automatic shut-cover, I'm just generalizing.

There, I said it!

If we want to go book by book and I'll say yes or no, let's do this.

I'll go sit in the corner and cry now.

 

[kuwisdelu]

Apart from the fact she has a friggin' huge audience clearly not that limited--you have an issue with home-makers why?

What makes you think I have an issue with homemakers?

Perhaps I misinterpreted your post. I thought you meant "having a female narrator didn't stop her from appealing to males." The OP was concerned about alienating male readers. And I was under the impression Meyer's biggest periphery demographic didn't come from an unexpectedly large male audience. I could be wrong about that. But based on that, I thought it was a weird and amusing, or rather ironic, example.

 

[suki]

Look, you can revise your post, and now state more clearly that "Oh, it's that there's romance, it's the romance that is the problem" but that's not what you posted.

You posted:

To be frank, it's hard to sell me a grown-up book featuring a woman my age as a MC, much less something on a YA shelf. I'm just not interested. I don't relate, but worse than that, most of the time I just don't care. A female character has to have a certain level of overlap with my reality for me to even be able to understand what's so interesting about what she's going through.

That, for me, is an issue.


~suki

 

[Niiicola]

Don't cry -- I ask because I truly am curious.

I think this is culturally ingrained in a lot of ways. I asked my husband about it once, like why this kind of thinking seems to start in childhood. You know, like "no girls allowed" and "girls are stupid" or whatever, and he said it was something along the lines of how girls can't run as fast and don't want to do cool shit like boys. I played with mostly boys as a kid and definitely ran faster than some, but my general reaction was "Well, fuck." It kind of still feels that way as a grownup.

I think I might be way off-topic right now.

 

[kuwisdelu]

I think this is culturally ingrained in a lot of ways. I asked my husband about it once, like why this kind of thinking seems to start in childhood. You know, like "no girls allowed" and "girls are stupid" or whatever, and he said it was something along the lines of how girls can't run as fast and don't want to do cool shit like boys. I played with mostly boys as a kid and definitely ran faster than some, but my general reaction was "Well, fuck." It kind of still feels that way as a grownup.

Well, at that age, isn't it equally as common for girls to say "no boys allowed" or that "boys are icky"?

I never much understood the sentiment on either side.

 

[Niiicola]

And I don't mean to come down on you, but seriously - this makes me nuts. We as a culture have a serious problem with fundamental, inbred, misogyny.

So here's my thing. If somebody truly isn't interested, what can you do? Are a lot of women-written books (including my WIP) more emotional about relationships? Yes. Are a lot of them playing to an expected audience of women? Yes. So you can't fault somebody for being wary of that. I can only hope that some day kids will be raised with fewer gender stereotypes and this will become a non-issue.

 

[Niiicola]

Well, at that age, isn't it equally as common for girls to say "no boys allowed" or that "boys are icky"?

I never much understood the sentiment on either side.

No, me neither, but in my experience, girls tended to be less exclusive and if a boy wanted to play with us, we would typically let him in as kind of a mascot.

 

[missesdash]

Look, I felt like totopink was asking an honest question about whether or not a dude is going to feel alienated by a female MC. And I'm trying to answer the question honestly, from my personal experience, without feeling like I have to worry about being judged for saying... no, I'm not really terribly engaged by most books featuring a female MC. With reasons why. Personal opinion.

Ohhhh well, too late.

I honestly think it was your phrasing. I know you're not a misogynist prick. But I can't not bring up sexism when someone who agrees with your points also thinks women in books should be like "that chick from resident evil."

I don't really like overwhelming romances, to be honest (I just write them, hey, shut up!) But if it's well written, I can read it from a male or female POV.

So it's not like "wow, shame on you." It's more than the viewpoints you expressed are usually rooted in something that needs to be addressed. So that other dudes whose intent we/I can't judge would be forced to examine why they feel the way they do.

Er, we made an example out of you.

 

[jmlee]

Look, you can revise your post, and now state more clearly that "Oh, it's that there's romance, it's the romance that is the problem" but that's not what you posted.

You posted:


That, for me, is an issue.

Sorry, I don't know how to quote my quote within yours, it's not omitted because I'm trying to be sneaky.

I don't know how to reconcile my own opinion of what type of entertainment interests me and the issues of an entire society. I was trying to casually answer a question, as if someone had just asked me "Hey, would you read this?" and I would check it out and say yes or no. I wasn't trying to get up on a box and tell people to stop writing chick-lit because men don't give a shit.

You mentioned inbred misogyny in your post before you edited it, and I guess I'm a little struck by the fact that I thought we were in a forum where I can say "No, that book isn't interesting to me, I don't really care about topic X" and not get nailed with the m-word. Some people don't like science fiction. Some people don't like high fantasy. They just don't care about elves or space travel. Maybe using the "care" word is what's muddling my phrasing. But I guess there aren't any real-life elves or aliens to tell me I'm an elf-hater or a xenophobe because I wouldn't normally pick up a book about them while browsing.

I have to care about what's going on in a book if I am going to finish it. There are plenty of books where I care, and there are plenty of books where I don't. Just because I don't tend to care about the majority of books with female MCs doesn't mean I don't care about women. But I also don't hang out with my fiancee and all her girlfriends when they're talking about biking and iPhone aps because... I don't know anything about biking and iPhone aps. Not because I hate women.

And when I need/want to learn more about the female experience, I guess fiction - and especially YA - is not usually my go-to.

I guess besides this I don't know what else I can really say. I can keep trying. I guess.

 

[missesdash]

Well, at that age, isn't it equally as common for girls to say "no boys allowed" or that "boys are icky"?

I never much understood the sentiment on either side.

Okay first: you look EXACTLY like one of my best friends and it's driving me nuts. I keep wanting to speak with you like we've known each other for years, but you are a total stranger. Just a friggin doppelganger.

Anyway, I wonder if it's because boys that age do tend to be icky. As in, snot nosed, "I'm hitting you because I like you" and covered in a fine layer of grime.

But then again, kids are gross in general. I work in a preschool. I swear I catch the plague once a month.