The 99Designs.com Thread

[Bookmama]

Hi,

I'm running an illustration contest over at 99designs.com and am looking for feedback on an illustration of a girl meeting Theodor Geisel (Dr. Seuss).

The polls is set up where you rate each illustration, as opposed to picking your favorite. I'm hoping that you can choose to rate fewer than the 8 finalists. Let me know if the number of illustrations is too cumbersome to work with and I'll try to narrow it down further.

Here is the link:

http://99designs.com/illustrations/vote-doab8s

Thanks in advance,
Anne

 

[Alessandra Kelley]

I cannot recommend the use of 99designs.com. It exploits artists in the most unethical way while giving clients the illusion that they are getting a bargain.

Please consider whether you wish to cooperate with a site that relies on desperate artists willing to work for slave wages.

 

[Bookmama]

Alessandra,

No one makes anyone sign up for 99Designs. And I don't suffer from any delusions as a client. This is my second contest I've held on 99Designs. The basic premise that makes sense to me for 99Designs is that often you don't know what you want in a drawing or design until you see it.

While I do feel badly for the folks who create an illustration or design where it doesn't get chosen and it's easy to think, "Oh, they did all that for nothing. A new illustrator can also use their entries to build a portfolio."

I totally don't get the term 'exploit' -- as a client, I see what $ in the design contest go to the winner and what $ go to 99designs and it seems like a fair division to me. In my prior contest I offered what I felt was more than reasonable payment for what I received. On this contest, I went a bit cheaper.

I'd be interested to hear why you view this company and concept in such a negative manner. Did you have a bad experience with them personally?

 

[Alessandra Kelley]

Please see this post on the Artist Bewares thread.

 

[Bookmama]

I still don't understand. Should I put my confusion in this thread or in the other one? The main thing I don't understand is there is no misrepresentation, that I am aware of, on the part of 99designs and there is no coercion to get people to create contests or enter them. As a contest creator I can choose to make the contest open where all designs are viewable or closed. And no design would be permitted to be stolen by anyone, only the winning design can be used and only by the contest owner. If an artist doesn't want to participate in an open contest and have their design viewable, then let them search on only closed contests and choose one of them to enter.

Yes, I understand absolutely why 99designs would be a website many artists would run away from. But I can also see artists for whom it makes sense. As I said, if you are just getting started and don't have many pieces in your portfolio, have the time and see a contest that intrigues you, why not?

I still don't understand your condemning all involved. To me a category such as "Writers Beware" or "Artists Beware" where you posted is warning about a situation that is different than it appears to be. From everything I've seen 99designs is what it says it is. And participation is voluntary.

In terms of the fees, if I create a contest for $199 winning design, the winner gets $199. I pay more than $199 since I pay an additional fee to 99designs when I create the contest. I do so willingly because they are providing me with a service.

Again, I do not understand your condemning the site or using it.

 

[Gale Haut]

None of them look any good anyway. So who really cares.

 

[Rhubix]

I'm also opposed to this website.

If 40 people spend 4 hours on a contest, that's 1600$ worth of work at minimum wage. (10$ an hour here), for the low-low price of 200$.

I cannot count the number of times people have asked me to work for free, or laughable amounts of money.
My best friend asked me to create a poster for a friend of hers (someone I have never met) and I told her 300$ (10 hours x 30$ an hour). She was disgusted - Why would it cost soooo much???
I asked her, How much do you get paid?
her answer, 28$ an hour....
and I should get paid less.... why?

Anyone using one of these sites tells me that they don't consider an artists time valuable at all. It's insulting.
Any artist using one of these sites tells me that they don't consider their own time valuable. They are hurting the art industry, and it's even worse then someone looking for a cheap deal.

If your on a budget, that's life. But there are plenty of emerging artists that are willing to work for modest wages, and ways to find them. 200$ can buy an art student a lot of instant noodles!
You can find a style that you like, and discuss what your looking for. I promise you could expect at least the same quality as the work I saw at the end of that link.

 

[Sharii]

I still don't understand. Should I put my confusion in this thread or in the other one? The main thing I don't understand is there is no misrepresentation, that I am aware of, on the part of 99designs and there is no coercion to get people to create contests or enter them. As a contest creator I can choose to make the contest open where all designs are viewable or closed. And no design would be permitted to be stolen by anyone, only the winning design can be used and only by the contest owner. If an artist doesn't want to participate in an open contest and have their design viewable, then let them search on only closed contests and choose one of them to enter.

Yes, I understand absolutely why 99designs would be a website many artists would run away from. But I can also see artists for whom it makes sense. As I said, if you are just getting started and don't have many pieces in your portfolio, have the time and see a contest that intrigues you, why not?

I still don't understand your condemning all involved. To me a category such as "Writers Beware" or "Artists Beware" where you posted is warning about a situation that is different than it appears to be. From everything I've seen 99designs is what it says it is. And participation is voluntary.

In terms of the fees, if I create a contest for $199 winning design, the winner gets $199. I pay more than $199 since I pay an additional fee to 99designs when I create the contest. I do so willingly because they are providing me with a service.

Again, I do not understand your condemning the site or using it.

Because it is unethical, preying on inexperienced artists, and you're supporting unethical venue. It is akin to for-pay publisher courting new writers by lambasting 'traditional publishers' and 'gatekeepers'. Bewares forum is not only for those that intend to con writers outright, but also for publishers that may not know better, naive, or outright misinformed.

 

[Alessandra Kelley]

I still don't understand. Should I put my confusion in this thread or in the other one? The main thing I don't understand is there is no misrepresentation, that I am aware of, on the part of 99designs and there is no coercion to get people to create contests or enter them. As a contest creator I can choose to make the contest open where all designs are viewable or closed. And no design would be permitted to be stolen by anyone, only the winning design can be used and only by the contest owner. If an artist doesn't want to participate in an open contest and have their design viewable, then let them search on only closed contests and choose one of them to enter.

Yes, I understand absolutely why 99designs would be a website many artists would run away from. But I can also see artists for whom it makes sense. As I said, if you are just getting started and don't have many pieces in your portfolio, have the time and see a contest that intrigues you, why not?

I still don't understand your condemning all involved. To me a category such as "Writers Beware" or "Artists Beware" where you posted is warning about a situation that is different than it appears to be. From everything I've seen 99designs is what it says it is. And participation is voluntary.

In terms of the fees, if I create a contest for $199 winning design, the winner gets $199. I pay more than $199 since I pay an additional fee to 99designs when I create the contest. I do so willingly because they are providing me with a service.

Again, I do not understand your condemning the site or using it.

Bookmama, I'm not blaming you for using the site. It's just that there are some serious concerns with 99designs.com that may not be obvious to the general public.

Salesmanship can make lots of things look good, and artists, just like writers, don't always know about copyright and how to avoid sites that exploit them.

People need to be educated about sites like 99designs.com and why they're bad for both visual artists and for their clients.

I've put a longer response on the Artist Bewares, Recommends and Background Checks thread.

 

[EMaree]

I'm hoping that you can choose to rate fewer than the 8 finalists. Let me know if the number of illustrations is too cumbersome to work with and I'll try to narrow it down further.

Sorry, but I don't feel morally comfortable picking which artist gets paid when I know all of these artists are making far less than they deserve.

Crowdsourcing and spec work damages the art industry.

 

[Filigree]

A thousand times this.

 

[Gale Haut]

I apologize for being harsh above, and this was in no way intended as an insult to the artists who submitted their work. Under the circumstances, I would not have put much work into something I submitted either, knowing that it very well wouldn't pay off in the end.

I 100% agree that crowdsourcing is unethical and attempts to take advantage of artists. I don't believe that this is an example of it succeeding in that regard. This looks like a classic example of a tired old truism: you get what you pay for.

Bookmama, I suggest hiring an artist in the future if you anticipate consistent quality and wish to make strong professional connections for the future.

 

[Austin Wimberly]

I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, I understand the concern of professional designers who don't want downward pressure put on their fees or, worse, have their roles outsourced to the crowd.

On the other hand, I'm struggling to see how a 99design contest is any different from a short story contest or a novel contest or any other contest. Google is holding a contest as we speak for who can make the best Google App. The winners get paid. The losers get nothing.

Perhaps the issue is the scope? I mean it's one thing if there are occasional graphic design contests where winners get some pecuniary prize. It's another thing altogether when that becomes a business model.

But, in another light, that's capitalism, isn't it? One big contest for who can get the most cheese?

But rights for workers is a good thing.

I'm going to argue with myself about this for the rest of the day, I think.

 

[Gale Haut]

Austin, if a story contest ever requested you write a story based on a specific model that will only be publishable within the realm of winning the contest, you should not participate in such a contest. You couldn't re-sub your work to any other market.

Look at the examples in the OP's link. Most of those images look very similar for a reason. And, likely, none of those images can be re-used by the artists because they are too specific to the contest's requirements.

The person holding such a contest clearly has far more to gain than the those who enter work.

 

[Austin Wimberly]

And, likely, none of those images can be re-used by the artists because they are too specific to the contest's requirements.
.

Aaaah. The re-use issue. Right. Because it's "Work for hire" so the copyright is forfeited. Have I got that correct? Even the "losers" of the contest lose their copyright?

Because if that's the case, then that would seem to tip the scale toward "bad."

 

[EMaree]

Aaaah. The re-use issue. Right. Because it's "Work for hire" so the copyright is forfeited. Have I got that correct? Even the "losers" of the contest lose their copyright?

Because if that's the case, then that would seem to tip the scale toward "bad."

I think (sorry if this is incorrect) that the issue isn't that the artist loses copyright. The issue is that they're producing work to very exact, custom specifications for a special use. They can't sell this work to anyone else, because no one else will want it.

Using this thread as an example... there are going to be very few other uses for the images of a girl meeting Dr Seuss, so the artists who don't 'win' are left with time lost and no money gained. Some people will argue it's about 'the experience', but you can get experience while getting paid for your hard work.

 

[Bookmama]

I give up. You know I posted about this contest on 3 forums that I participate on regularly, one of the other two includes many writers and some artists and only here has the response been incredibly negative.

I followed the link to one of the blog posts referenced in the Artists Beware post about 99design and the blog post urged us to put ourselves in the artists' position, asking, can you imagine being asked to produce something that wasn't going to be able to be used.

YES, I CAN and DID. I entered a Highlights Magazine Writing Contest where the contest was to write 500 words or less and begin it with a specific sentence. I spent A LOT of time working on that story. I had it critiqued by my writing group. In the end I officially got nothing. But I have no animosity towards either Highlights Magazine, the winner of the contest of anyone else. No one coerced me into participating.

Forget it. If I can find where to close this thread I will. I'm not sure when I'll next be back to visit the Water Cooler.

 

[Gale Haut]

I see a discussion where several people brought their own perspective to the table and attempted to lay out why they feel the way they do in a level headed way. (Maybe you can't include me in that.)

I never intended to be hostile towards you. I was frustrated by seeing a site that exploits my profession linked in the Art forums on these boards. It's existence can refer people to use it, which affects many people here in a tremendous way.

YES, I CAN and DID. I entered a Highlights Magazine Writing Contest where the contest was to write 500 words or less and begin it with a specific sentence. I spent A LOT of time working on that story. I had it critiqued by my writing group. In the end I officially got nothing. But I have no animosity towards either Highlights Magazine, the winner of the contest of anyone else. No one coerced me into participating.

That's one contest. Crowdsourcing is something that is used by major corporations and businesses who can afford to pay professional rates, so that they won't have to pay professional rates. The Highlights Magazine Contest doesn't compare in the same way as it doesn't really threaten the publishing industry's overall structure.

Also, not all art contests are unethical. I participated in a few when starting out. It's the use of 99designs, founded on a business model that is unethical, which I disapprove of.

 

[EMaree]

I give up. You know I posted about this contest on 3 forums that I participate on regularly, one of the other two includes many writers and some artists and only here has the response been incredibly negative.

Without knowing which forums you mean, I strongly suspect that this is because a lot of members of Absolute Write are very familiar with the creative industries. Quite a few people replying to this thread are professional artists.

Everyone replied civilly and took their time explaining the reasons behind their opinions, so it's a shame that you consider our response 'extremely negative' without seeming to understand the reasons why it was negative.

Good luck with your future projects.

 

[mirandashell]

Can I, as a non-artist, request that the thread be left open? I for one learnt something today.

 

[Alessandra Kelley]

I think this thread is a helpful one to keep going and an interesting conversation on an important topic. In my opinion it has not reached the need for locking.

 

[mirandashell]

How many of these kinds of sites are there?

 

[Katallina]

I think this discussion is both interesting and important. I have a question, considering what we are discussing here.

One of the things I have been thinking of doing as part of my future promotion plan for my book is hosting art contests with a theme (valentines day, for instance) where artists would be encouraged to draw one of the couples from my novel and the readers of my author blog would be able to vote for their favorite.

My intention is to offer three prizes for the artists and to offer one reader a free book for casting their vote. (winner there chosen by random draw of some form). The kinds of things I would likely be giving away would be stuff like DA points, an Amazon gift card, etc.

My goals are to showcase some artists, to have a fun activity for those following my blog to participate in and to have more art related to my work made. (I admit I am addicted to this. I check people offering commissions on Deviant Art a lot and like hiring those whose styles I enjoy to bring parts of my world to life. There is a huge difference between seeing words and seeing images; it's a lot easier to make things up and write them down for me then it is to draw or color them.

I actually went through a phase where I thought of holding a contest to get my cover done but ultimately decided against that because cover art is extremely specific and it seemed more logical to pick a specific artist whose style I liked and work with them from start to finish. I'm pointing this out because I am not afraid to admit that I can make mistakes. What ultimately matters is whether someone who does this cares enough to learn from it and make better choices in the future.

But, getting back to the point, is what I am proposing the same type of problem we are discussing here (As in: No! Don't do that.) or is this an apples to oranges comparison? Whether writing, film, paints, or anything else... Art deserves to be valued. My medium may be different then someone who is drawing, but I still would not want my work to be associated with something that demeans the overall importance of art or creativity as a whole.

My apologies if this should have been a separate thread; I really wasn't sure. I just started thinking about it when I was reading the comments and thought I might as well bring it up.

Thanks for your time.

 

[EMaree]

I think this discussion is both interesting and important. I have a question, considering what we are discussing here.

One of the things I have been thinking of doing as part of my future promotion plan for my book is hosting art contests with a theme (valentines day, for instance) where artists would be encouraged to draw one of the couples from my novel and the readers of my author blog would be able to vote for their favorite.

My intention is to offer three prizes for the artists and to offer one reader a free book for casting their vote. (winner there chosen by random draw of some form). The kinds of things I would likely be giving away would be stuff like DA points, an Amazon gift card, etc.

My goals are to showcase some artists, to have a fun activity for those following my blog to participate in and to have more art related to my work made. (I admit I am addicted to this. I check people offering commissions on Deviant Art a lot and like hiring those whose styles I enjoy to bring parts of my world to life. There is a huge difference between seeing words and seeing images; it's a lot easier to make things up and write them down for me then it is to draw or color them.

I actually went through a phase where I thought of holding a contest to get my cover done but ultimately decided against that because cover art is extremely specific and it seemed more logical to pick a specific artist whose style I liked and work with them from start to finish. I'm pointing this out because I am not afraid to admit that I can make mistakes. What ultimately matters is whether someone who does this cares enough to learn from it and make better choices in the future.

Interesting post, though I do think it might deserve it's own thread. Maybe a kind mod will split it?

Most people do fanart out of love of the work (I know I do).

So, imagining a future where you're a bestseller with loads of lovely fans and regular site visitors: If you have a fandom who enjoy producing art of your stuff, encouraging more of it with a competition and prizes is a nice extra bonus. (And the reputation boost by being 'showcased' on your site would be nice.)

Alternatively, if you have specific art you would like and some talented fans, you could just talk to them about commissioning work.

In this scenario, it's definitely an apples to oranges. The artists will do the fanart regardless, for their own enjoyment, you're just giving them recognition for their hard work. I'm also assuming the artists ownership of their own work if it isn't picked as the winner.

But in a situation where you've got a smaller fanbase, or if you're aiming for artwork by artists who aren't familiar with your work, you'd still need to pay commission rates. And even when you're huge with a generous fanbase, it's still good to buy commissions and help support the artist community.

Hope this makes sense, it's a little late at night. As always, this is just my opinion on things.

 

[Bookmama]

I'm glad if others found this thread helpful, I definitely did not. People seem a bit surprised at my reaction.

First, I have in the past, both before my first 99designs contest, between my first and current 99designs contest and will in the future hire artists using the traditional model of choosing an illustrator and paying them their requested fee. So for those who felt they needed to instruct me to go that route, I have gone that route and will again.

Basically, in response for me requesting feedback on a project that I have invested quite a bit of time and money in, and care a lot about, the only response I received were comments about 99designs, the contests people run on 99designs, or the illustrations produced on 99designs and that they were...

unethical

exploits

desperate artists willing to work for slave wages

None of them look any good anyway. So who really cares
--- "ha ha" true

you're supporting unethical venue

(and yes, I realize that the "None of them..." line was apologized for -- but it remains in the thread and was seconded by another poster)

99designs has not taken over even the majority of the art work/graphic designs that I pay people to do. I would say that two contests in the last 2 or 3 years probably represent maybe 10 - 20% of what I have paid people for. I really question people's impression that 99designs will somehow have a huge impact on the industry. Does anyone who feels this is the case have any data that indicates 99design contests represent any sizeable percent of illustration/graphic design work being done? Most people I know have never heard of it.

I use 99designs for one specific purpose, for a case where I am unsure exactly what kind of design I want and where I would like to get feedback from others before making a final decision. I do think that most of the people entering my contest are generally unestablished (perhaps not quite the right word) and relatively inexperienced. That doesn't mean that they are incapable, hacks and should be written off. I always write individual feedback to each artist who participates in my contest to thank them for the time they have spent and for entering the contest. I show them respect and appreciation.

And now, I really shall depart and let any further debate about the evils of 99designs continue without me. I simply stopped back to
- explain my reaction
- clarify that I do not use 99designs for the majority of my graphics/illustration work but for a specific condition
- explain why I don't view my relationship to those who enter my contest as being exploitive or a bad thing for either them or me