Luna Brillante Publishing

The marketing plan verbiage is a sign that you should look for a higher class of publisher.

Well, back to polishing the short story for Baen Universe. Thanks for all the information everyone.

Here's, Cao, is where I'll respectfully disagree, although I'll agree that it's probably not 'most' publishers, but 'most' small publishers.

LBP is a small press. Use small press mentality. I happen to be in the midst of seeing first hand how an author who refuses to do their part can be detrimental to a small press.

I've seen authors who bust their humps - signings, internet, conventions, just putting their names in lots of places, on top of what their publisher is doing for them.

And I've seen other authors who refuse to even aid (I said aid) in putting together their media kit - by supplying quotes, a photo, an interview, etc... and don't do the signings, don't have the website, etc... and despite the same things being done by the publisher, do NOT have the numbers.

Why put your time and money - which you know is already lacking with small press - into product you won't be able to sell? No book is guaranteed, but if the author won't make the effort, why should they?

Small presses have a hard enough time staying afloat without people who

I'm NOT talking about PA tactics - flyers, bookmarks and the like. I'm talking getting an interview on a website, for example, or keeping up a website and blog. Nothing that involves money - because most places don't want you to spend money. They want you to be visible.

The other thing, remember, is that, unlike PA, most small presses, unless they are scams of PA's ilk, want to sell books to the public. They will do their part, they're only asking for help. They're NOT throwing the author out into the wilderness alone. Ack, no.

Remember, this is small press, we're not talking hundreds of thousands of copies. There's nothing wrong with small press, as long as you understand, it's small press.

They only have six slots. Reasonable for a first year, small press list. They have to use those six slots wisely, or risk not coming back for a second year. If it's a choice between two books of equal strength, and one author has a plan for how to put themselves out there, agrees wholeheartedly to do appearances and spread the word about their book, and the other doesn't, which would you pick? It's your business and you have to spend wisely, is all I'm saying.

Even LBP says they may not be for you, based on what they're asking. And they're not asking a lot.


I'm sorry if this seems like I'm bucking the "traditional" thinking. If you were talking about a large press with a huge marketing budget, I'd probably be on the same page.

These little presses need to survive, and they need books that are going to sell. I'm seeing more and more small press sites where 'marketing plans' - again, usually meaning websites, blogs, appearances, is what I've heard - are a part of the submissions package.


If you don't want small press, go for large press. Easy as that.

Ugh, my stupid computer is giving my trouble, not letting me edit.

Anyway, I don't know how the above applies to LBP - I don't know much about them except the commercial - subsidy - back to commercial thing.

I'm just saying, don't judge all small presses by asking for a plan. Ask them what they expect.

Hi Christine N. Thanks for the other view point. I think what threw me was the "marketing plan" as opposed to "helping to market". Certainly, I am game to discuss things further since, in a first email, communication can be a bit iffy and the editor may not have meant what I read.

I'm not saying go in blind. Also ask what THEY do. It's not out of line to ask if they submit to the chains, if they are in any brick and mortar, where they will send ARC's, etc...Are they making the effort? is the question you want to ask yourself.

The other is - will you be happy with a small press number of copies sold? Realistically.

Any publisher who can't give you straight answers is not someone you want to work with.

EngineerTiger said:

Hi Christine N. Thanks for the other view point. I think what threw me was the "marketing plan" as opposed to "helping to market".

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I agree with Jim. A publisher that asks for a marketing plan for fiction (it's pretty standard for nonfiction) is a publisher that intends to rely on its authors as an unpaid sales force. It's a strong hint that the publisher does not work with a distributor (as distinct from a wholesaler like Ingram) or maintain its own sales force. It also suggests that the publisher is not marketing-savvy in the way one wants publishers to be. If you've written a novel, you really, really want your publisher to know a whole lot more about marketing than you do.

The things that authors can do to affect sales are minimal, anyway, compared to what publishers can or should be able to do.

- Victoria

When a publisher says that the author will have some responsibilty with promoting thier book I just want to see distnction. I don't see things like showing up for signings and interviews as out of the ordinary simply becuase they are things that only you can do. What I want to know is how ordinary is it for the author to have to set up thier own interviews and signings? Is it the writer's job to go out and set these meetings up?

Having been there, again, I respectfully disagree. I have never felt like an unpaid sales force. I have never been asked to visit a bookstore, beg to have my title stocked, or asked to advertise. I have never been asked for it to be "my job" to promote my title. Only to be a help.

Do I have the names of local bookstores? Sure do - send 'em along to the publicist, names and phone numbers. Saves the teeny weeny publicity dept, who has only so many hours in the day, the time it would take to look up the stores near where I live. I don't mind, it's easy. She calls them and makes the arrangements, tells me, I show up. All I had to do was send the e-mail.

Can I help make a media kit? Sure can - I'll supply photo, bio, interview, make suggestions on which review quotes to use. Can I make and upkeep a website? Sure thing. MySpace? Gotcha. Maintain a blog? Okee dokee. Attend a con? I love going to them, especially if I'm a panelist and it's only costing me room and food. Do school visits? A-ok!
Do I have a list of suggested places to send the ARC? Sure as heck do!
Know an author who might like to give you a blurb? Give them a name, find some contact information.


(and Jenna's e-book "Book Promotion Ain't for Sissies" - I found the link here before, I think it's in the Rountable somewhere - says much of these things are not unusual. I have it on my computer, though if you can't find it, I'll e-mail it to you)

These are the things I'm talking about, not being a 'salesperson' and pounding the pavement to the bookstores. Uh-huh, I don't do that.

Again, I'd ask to see what they expect. If they expect you to put money out of pocket for ads or such, then no, I wouldn't consider publishing with them. Other stuff? Not so bad, and again, I see this more and more on legitimate fiction small press sites. Really. I've been looking over a lot of them, and it pops up more than you might think.

Christine N. : The things you have hilighted as accetable I don't see any problem with myself. I would be happy to do those things. A book signing and interview sound like fun to me

Recnetly people have been saying that it is the author's job to market and promote their book. When I ask them what they mean specifically they all give vague answers which I have taken to mean they think its thier job to pound the pavement. It's good to hear that that is not the case if you have a reptable publisher, small or large.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

, Cao, probably exactly right.

I really think it's just scale. Which usually equals money. Looking at a lot of small presses lately (research), they seem to run much the same way. There are standouts - those that are sort of between small and mid, that seem to be ahead of the curve. To be expected, sure.


And there are those on the opposite end, who haven't yet quite figured it out yet and possibly never will. I'm not including the scammers, who pretty much KNOW what they're doing, if you get my meaning.

I'd prefer a large house - I'd also prefer an agent and a million bucks too, but sometimes we gotta be realistic. Call it pragmatism within a dream.

If you've got talent but haven't quite got what the big houses want (yes, I've been told that more than once - 'good, but not what commercial houses want') then a reputable small press isn't the end of the world. Some do really well for themselves. Some, not so much. Spotting the difference takes some doing and a little digging.

I would never discourage people from seeking out the biggest, best house they could get. Just keep an open mind.

Grand Duchess - happy to help. I would also ask any small press some other things. Besides the marketing stuff, but how they do their business. Do they do print runs, even small ones, or are they strictly POD. POD is harder to get a signing, harder to make a name for. Not all small presses are POD, but some are.

ValenaGraham said:

I check out the link for Koen. The email and the place on site to contact them doesn't work. Emails bounce back. Are you sure they are still in business? It sounds like a interesting idea.

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Not sure. I haven't been back there in nearly four years. I can't believe it's been that long ago!

Sorry Silverhand that it didn't work out.

ETA: I check out Koen's page, it looks like they have doubled up with Levy, so that was probably why they were down.

Replying to Christine's posts --

I am not against marketing and supporting my book. I don't think anyone replying actually is. But that marketing plan comment combined with other statements is enough to raise a lot of flags.

I am highly suspicious of a publisher who offers me representation based ONLY on a query letter, short synopsis and first 3 chapters.

They are either fools or they are planning to make a lot of money on my hoped-for-gullibility. Neither one are a small publisher I want to go with.

My concerns were the offer of representation before seeing the finished product, the demand for a marketing plan before seeing the finished product, the fact that they apparently have no interest IN the finished product. Also, the services the publisher was offering were not what I'd expect a small publisher to provide -- some ads on the Internet and advanced copies are not, surely, the ONLY things a traditional small publisher does for its authors.

Luna Brillante is now saying they are back to being a traditional publisher. However, it seems like they are at best a POD publisher. It's one thing to say you're POD/vanity/etc. and let authors submit therefore. It's another to say that you're selective, a real traditional publisher, etc., and then not actually ask to see the entire product before saying you'll take the author on as long as said author has a good marketing plan.

Should those of us submitting to smaller presses expect to do some serious marketing? Sure. Should we also expect the publisher to actually provide publishing services? I truly think so.

First of all, they're not offering representation, they're offering to publish your book. Agents represent. Publishers publish. Vast difference.

That e-mail they sent to you says to me that you're through the first round of reads. You haven't yet been rejected, but you still could be. They want your whole book to read, plus the other materials to see how you stack up against the other competitors. Read anything you get from a publisher carefully. But I agree, it was kind of confusing. They do seem a little lost.

Most of my statments were very small-press generic. Your Mileage May Vary. Ask is always the best policy. Ask what they do, print runs v. POD, what they're marketing dept is going to do, etc...

Again, I've seen "marketing plan" or something similar being included in the submissions guidelines of MANY small, legitimate presses lately. They want it up front. Doesn't raise a flag for me. Things that raise a flag for me are more like reading fees, a super quick turnaround, an ACTUAL offer of publication on a partial, or unwillingness to answer simple questions.

This particular outfit's certainly not presenting themselves in the best light. Like I said, my advice was generic.

The whole arena of small press publishing has changed in the fact that it's leaning towards more author participation nowadays Now I can say this because my publishers, both mid-sized and small (18 years ago) did pretty much everything, lining up radio and TV interviews and signings, sending out review copies. But I did jump in and contact 330 newspaper review editors and offered them a free copy of the book through my publisher's hotlines. It certainly made a difference.

Just recently, my Canadian publishers sent me a huge author questionare and promotion package. The only thing that stuck out at me was their request for email and house addresses of relatives and friends. I told them, "Don't pull this PA crap with me." Then they explained that it was optional, and that they did this to announce my upcoming release, and also added a small catalog. Since they were footing the bill for envelopes and postage, I agreed, but I did ask them just how much advertizing, publicity and promotion they intended to do. I was totally satisfied with the answers.

Today the competition is fierce for book/author recognition. I'll go to the lengths neccessary to stand out and assist. I won't take the full burden. You've got to tell them that straight up, with no back and no ice.

In my opinion the faults of POD lie with inadequate distribution, or none at all. EVERYBODY and their mother has jumped on the POD wagon and called themselves publishers. Now they're fighting it out in the trenches. The second biggest problem is the price of POD books. Screw the returnability issue for right now--even if the books are in stores, I cringe because that store is loaded with MM paperbacks at half the price of my QTPB. Price IS an issue. Maybe the biggest one, for me anyway.

Do. Not. Be. Afraid to question your potential small press to get truthful answers to your nagging questions. My agent went after my publishers with a knife in one hand and a money bag in the other. Know what they did? They held a gun to his head. It was the worst Mexican standoff I've every seen. We got a little out of it--probably more than any other writer, I'm damn sure. But the point is, make small press fess up and lay it on the line. I'm glad it happened. I think they respect me now, and we sure let them know a few facts about what a real publisher is obligated to do.

Point is: It's damn tough out here, even for someone who has an agent.

Tri

Much of this is because of the advent of digital printing, IMO. New publishers pop up out of nowhere, it seems, because you can now DO a small print run that's affordable. The per unit cost may be a bit higher than offset, but you don't have to print as many at a time.

There's also the POD route, which isn't as good (also IMO) but is do-able with the advent of digital printing.


Tri's right, the competiton for the reader's dollar is really, really tough. I'd even say inside the bookstore it's high - lots of titles out there on the shelf.

And I'll go back to Jeanne and say that the e-mail you received WAS worded terribly. They said they were 'interested' in producing your book, but they didn't actually make an offer. Being interested after a few chapters isn't unusual, but they seemed to have stepped all over themselves trying to tell you what they wanted to happen next.

I usually tell authors who have stuff I want to read something like this... "I enjoyed the chapters you send and would like to read the whole manuscript. Please send to..." They way they said it, you really had to read it carefully to get it. That's kinda weird.

Right, Christine, it was that, the fact that they seemed to be moving far too quickly, that made all my flags go up.

I'm in no way opposed to nor shocked by the idea that I'll have to market myself and my book/s regardless of which publisher/s I end up with. It just felt far too early to be discussing marketing plans when they don't even know if the book ends well...if it ends at all. I expected a request for a full MS if they wanted to move forward, not a leap into all of my potential responsibilities and the urging to answer quickly as slots were filling up.

Greetings all,

Well - if anything Luna Brillante Publishing definitely generates talk. I only wish it would be in more positive vibe.

Basically, I sent the following to an author who has a question as to why we sent out the "2nd round" form letters. I think my answer to him applies to here -
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Someone else brought up distribution. We have distribution through Lightning Source and they also take care of our fulfillment needs - but they do not offer a sales force that will go out and peddle our wears. Believe me, I wished they did.

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So, you don't have distribution.
Honestly. We're talking about honesty. Lighning Source is a printer. They print. You order, they ship. They fulfill orders.

Ingrams and B&T are wholesalers. They get books from publishers and wholesale them to retailers.

You want a distributor? One with a sales force and all that? Really?

Go HERE These guys are distributors. But you'd need more than POD to get in with them; first you need a total of ten titles, and have to be able to deliver large quantity orders, because these guys work with bookstores directly.

So, I get that you've got the best of intentions, that you're not out to hurt anyone, but you've just shown that you really don't know much about book publishing. I don't have a problem with small press authors developing a game plan for their books. I get that most small presses have small staffs and limited time and resources. Doesn't bother me. What does bother me is your obvious lack of knowledge.

And you're only doing POD? While I understand the savings, you won't be able to get your books into the chain stores, or most likely even considered. I've seen their small press submission requirements - they state in no uncertain terms that they won't consider POD titles for nationwide stocking.

So now you're left with online venues. And I hope you've got a good discount in place and returnabliltiy in place for stores, because otherwise your authors are going to have a hard time booking signings.

And that first e-mail? I have to say, you could have worded it a bit better. It was obviously confusing to the author you sent it to.

Flags get raised when we think authors aren't getting a fair shake. When we think they can do better. Right now, I probably wouldn't submit to you - because I know I can do better.

That's all. Nothing against you or what you're trying to do.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm telling you what I see.

Christine, thanks, I appreciate your sticking up for us...or I guess in general small publishers - in your previous posts.

As you said, many of the distributors will not do POD - but some we found will - we just have to have our 10 titles.

We do offer returns and 40% wholesale discount. Through our association with Lightning Source and Ingram, our books are available on all of the typical online outlets.

We've always been upfront with all of our authors about their expectations for being in stores. We've actually had some of our titles carried by some independent stores, but no - no Chain stores.

I'd also like to mention that we're one of the few (that I know of) POD publishers that will produce ARCs. We send ARCs to Publishers Weekly, Library Journal, Foreward Magazine, gene specific zines and sites, as well as many other industry review places.

No one with LBP has ever stated they've been in the publishing business for 50 years. We know we're young, we're stupid, we're making mistakes.

I know there are some authors out there who look at LBP and say, "Hey, its amateur hour."

We're learning as we go - there's definitely been bumps in the road and some real learning experiences.

It's been a rough go of it the last year or so.

Still, I believe we have our place - and I believe we'll continue to grow.

We do want to leave POD and move toward pre-press - that's are ultimate goal - but we're far from that.

I don't believe we've ever pretended to be more than what we are.

I believe there are authors out there who can see the potential of the company and our passion for the art. As more authors join LBP, our list grows, our reputation for putting out great books increases, we can become what we envision ourselves being.

This has just been another bump in the road.

Our goal was never to get rich off this endeavor. We want to create great works of Speculative Fiction. We want readers clamoring for our books. We want our authors to become well known and do well. If we can at least break even on every book we create, then we're doing just fine.

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I find this paragraph more than a little scary. A potential author wants his publisher to be thinking, "hell yes, we're in this for the long haul, and we're going to make it happen." What they don't want to hear is, "oh well, um, gee, we just want everyone to do well. We don't care if we make any money."

If you don't care about making money, then believe me, you won't, and neither will your authors. This paragraph makes you sound like a hobbyist rather than a serious publisher. A serious publisher NEEDS a profit to stay in business. Breaking even on every book isn't enough to keep you in business. I say this not to be snarky, but to offer some advice from someone who is enjoying the knee-scraping, bumpy ride to success.

We know we're young, we're stupid, we're making mistakes.

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Again, this is just plain scary. You can't be talking like this with someone's hard work. It's irresponsible.

priceless1 said:

I find this paragraph more than a little scary. A potential author wants his publisher to be thinking, "hell yes, we're in this for the long haul, and we're going to make it happen." What they don't want to hear is, "oh well, um, gee, we just want everyone to do well. We don't care if we make any money."

If you don't care about making money, then believe me, you won't, and neither will your authors. This paragraph makes you sound like a hobbyist rather than a serious publisher. A serious publisher NEEDS a profit to stay in business. Breaking even on every book isn't enough to keep you in business. I say this not to be snarky, but to offer some advice from someone who is enjoying the knee-scraping, bumpy ride to success.


Again, this is just plain scary. You can't be talking like this with someone's hard work. It's irresponsible.

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Scary, yeah, I can see that. We're also honest. How can I sit there and say, "Hell no, we know what we're doing! Ignore that man behind the curtain who looks like he has no idea what he's doing - he's not important - but we absolutely know what we're doing!"

I think our track record has proven otherwise. I think its better to come out in say it, be honest about it - and not try to hide our inexperience.

As I said, the authors who have worked with us are pleased with their experience with us. As long as they are happy, we're happy. If we make 10 million or just enough to keep the lights on - we're happy as long as our authors and are readers are.

When we select a book - we know its a person's hard work, blood, sweat and tears. They become part of us, part of the family and we want to nuture that book and bring it to its potential.

Now, maybe that's not how most publishers do it...and maybe it is "hobbyist-ish". The bottom line for us is can we afford to do this, are we staying true to the dream and are we being honest.

jcdelatorre said:

Now, maybe that's not how most publishers do it...and maybe it is "hobbyist-ish". The bottom line for us is can we afford to do this, are we staying true to the dream and are we being honest.

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The publishing industry isn't for hobbyists. It's a full time, 24/7 endeavor. Among a gazillion other things, it takes money, lots of it. Look, I wish you nothing but the best. I've said that before. My concern lies with your authors. If being a hobby is all you can afford, then how can you do the best by your authors?

You're the captain of your ship, and if you're telling potential authors that, well, gee, you have no idea about how something works, does that bode well for your company's reputation? Being honest is admirable, but that characteristic doesn't equate success.

Yeah, I have to agree with Lynn; it sounds kind of like you're throwing a bunch of stuff against a wall and see what sticks.

Sorry, dude. I hope you make it, I really do, but I wish you'd get your game plan together before asking for anyone else's.

Sure, be honest, but reading your replies doesn't give me much confidence. As an author, I'd need to have confidence in my publisher.