The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Dolan · Feb 27, 2005

Bikrpreacher

Not to argue. But I don't think the newer PA authors know, at all, that he bought the books. If I didn't know from old posts, I would think he meant that the sales were through Amazon.com, etc.

Claims of book sales, in part, are a reason I'm a PA author.

Christine N. · Feb 27, 2005

Diana Hignutt said:
Christine,

I'm from South Jersey-Between Exit 2 and Exit 3. About fifteen minutes from Philly. Shhh-Quiet about the dumps, okay?

diana

Then you're not far from me, b/c I guess I'm about 20 mins from Philly. Gloucester County. That's so funny.

DaveKuzminski · Feb 27, 2005

I believe that when we see articles such as the one in The Olympian, each of us should write a courteous letter to the journalist asking that a followup article be written using more of the facts about PA as a favor to their readers.

As far as the thousand sales claimed by one author in the PA forum, I read that with some skepticism because I have seen PA use plants before within their forum. It takes only one such claim to energize a dozen writers out of their thousands in order to boost the sales for that month and keep PA in the black.

Know how to see a twinkle in Larry's eyes?

A - Shine a flashlight in one of his ears.

akaa1a · Feb 27, 2005

Sheesh! Don't ask the tough questions!

I'm thinking we will be seeing this author really soon. The response on this post was vaguely reminiscent of the "Don't take that tone with me" thing that is the PA battle cry.
So much for asking simple questions! :Ssh:

Sounds like he also doesn't want anyone else to ask any in the future.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11722.htm

Message:
So basically, it's 200 PA authors talking about their experiences being published only with PA.

I'm no expert, but it sounds a bit redundant to me.
Are you talking about authors writing about their personal stories of goals and rejections before being published with PA...or are you talking about them writing about the process of being published with PA.

If it's the latter, all of the stories will be really similar and might show PA as being a cookie cutter type of publisher.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here...and just wanting for people to understand what their writing prompt should be.

Also, who is the market for this book? Before everyone gets too excited about potential royalty issues, there should be a publically disclosed plan about who this book will be marketed to.

Will it be in bookstores with a return policy since future PA authors frequent bookstores and buy the "How to Write and Where to Submit" type of books. Without a return policy, there will be very little market for the book other than...well, frankly...PA authors.

I think it's important to really develop an idea and contingencies before barreling ahead half-baked.

Just my opinion...I could be wrong!

Message:

Larry,
you are certainly on my list but will check later if I have your content.

lbs,
I am quite confident that the authors that wish to be included in this book are well capable of deciding for themselves without any help from me or anyone else.

I will have 200 authors and they will all be pulling together, this will be a happy ship. If you cannot see any value for you personally then it is best for you that you do not participate and I respect that.

By all means email me on any issues you may have but it will not be possible for me to engage in more than one response on this post because it is for authors that want to be part of this book rather than those that don`t.

I am perfectly happy for you to have posted your remarks because that should prevent anyone else repeating what you have already said.

best wishes,
john

bikrpreacher · Feb 27, 2005

Dolan said:
Not to argue. But I don't think the newer PA authors know, at all, that he bought the books. If I didn't know from old posts, I would think he meant that the sales were through Amazon.com, etc.

Sorry Dolan, I didn't know that, see, assumed...that's interesting though, I didn't look at the message board before submitting so I didn't have that to think about.

It is still interesting too, how many say it's in the contract that you do all the marketing. I was over here arguing with Dave when I first signed, and I read all of the marketing into. here, and when I read the contract where they say you will make yourself available for book signings and such, I really thought AW was wrong, because it sounds like they do it, you just be AVAILABLE.

Didn't someone here make a post about how many were in the independence program, if I'm remembering right, it's a very small amount of books.
And to get in that program, you have to be in their 'Specially'

(PS...Miranda did say in that private yahoo group that books you buy yourself do count, but somewhere there is something from infocenter that says you should buy them through Amazon or something and not through PA - can't remember what the reasoning was, maybe the one's bought through their book store don't count, I can't remember, anyone interested would have to google).

bikrpreacher · Feb 27, 2005

eidted...that post is still there, I swear I couldn't find it...my poor eyes!

Dolan · Feb 27, 2005

Bikrpreacher

Before I signed with PA, I checked the Ind. program. I'm going by memory but I think that one had to sell 2,000 copies through a retail store or online.

I believed that I could do that, partially because of the 1,000 book sales claims. (This was before the PA author I referenced above but there were others.) I knew that PA books were not stocked in stores but PA claimed the Ind. books were stocked.

I thought, because of sales claims, that I would easily sell a 1,000 books so I felt that I was 1/2 way there. I spent a lot on advertising to sell that next batch of a 1,000 copies. If my book was stocked through the Ind. program I would have advertised even more. Without the Ind. program, I would not have asked PA to publish my work.

What happened? Well, my book didn't sell many copies, regardless of ads in three national magazines. One reason was that my book was quite often unavailable. PA blamed it on the printer and I had no control over that.

My point is that I was swayed by what some PA authors were claiming about sales and they were lies. I can not believe that I am the only one to bite the sales claims' bait of the braggers.

victoriastrauss · Feb 27, 2005

XThe NavigatorX said:
The Olympian published an article on self-publishing that mentions PA in passing.

I've rarely seen a decent article of this kind (and I've seen many) but this has to be one of the worst. From "So you've written a book. Someone has edited it" (so writers are routinely supposed to get outside editing?) to "If you want your book to sell, you have to sell your book" (don't know which to say first, duh! or huh?), this has to be one of the dumbest articles on this subject I've ever seen. I wouldn't even know where to start a response.

- Victoria

bikrpreacher · Feb 27, 2005

Dolan,
No, I doubt if you are the only one, just that I didn't think of it that way, I'm sure people are reading their messageboards, just that I didn't. I can sure see your point now that you brought it up. At the time I submitted my manuscript, I just wasn't able to be online as much as I am now. I can see where what they say on the boards will have a lot to do with rather someone submits a manuscript or not, after all, these are people who's books are out. I can only hope that people who read them realize that most of the ones on the board aren't of the older group, (some are I know), but mostly it's newer one's who haven't been 'out' long enough to really tell anyone how to market a book.

Sher2 · Feb 27, 2005

T42 said:
Yes, some are ignorant about publishing and did not do the homework. I would be one of them. Does that make me ignorant? I think not!

Right on, Mem. I don't consider myself particularly ignorant. I did fail to do my homework, granted. I was gullible enough to believe that if a company touted itself on a public Web site as a legitimate, royalty-paying publisher, it must be true. And let it be noted that the information which comes up today on a Google search of PA was not extant at the time I signed.

Susan Gable · Feb 27, 2005

Sassenach said:
If they're 'victims' of anything, it's their own naivete/ignorance about publishing. While the amount of info on PA and similar scams has increased dramatically in the last year, there's been plenty of info available about them for some time. It seems that many of the PA partisans didn't bother to do some basic research before submitting to PA. Bad things happen to those who fail to do their research!

I just wanted to offer a word of support to the brave person who posted this. Yes, doing your homework is important. People do research before they buy a car, before they decide on a career... They should do it before they publish a book.

Back when I first started writing, I attended a multi-genre conference. I went into a workshop with a multi-pubbed romance writer, and the first thing she said was, "I no longer do other people's homework for them. So, if that's what you expected, that's not happening."

I was offended. How dare she say that? But you know what? It didn't take long for me to understand what she meant. There are people out there who do things like: Ask their brother/SIL/mother to research agents for them because they "don't have the time to do it." There are people who, when offered the information that Markets Guide exists to help them, Agents Guide, etc. just say, "Well, can't you just send it to your agent with your recommendation?" (no matter that you haven't read the work, don't know if it's any good or not.)

So please, don't take offense at what's been said here. If you tried to research PA before signing with them, good for you. There's a lot more information out there NOW then there was earlier, so it's not your fault that you didn't find it when you looked.

If you didn't do your homework...well, I think you've probably learned something about that now, right? Therefore it was a lesson learned.

And that's always valuable. Usually it's the costly/painful lessons that teach us the most.

Blame the victims? No, that's not what we're doing. But we are saying do your homework. I can't help it - I'm a former elementary teacher, and I believe in doing homework. :Lecture:

(Hey, I get mad at people who pass on bogus emails, too, because it doesn't take much work to check those out before you panic and mail them out to your entire email addy list. <G> )

The whole point of this thread is to help PA authors - both those considering signing with them (PLEASE DON'T! <G>), and those who've already had an "unfortunate experience" - do their homework. To educate people. So, you've come to the right place.

Susan G.

AnneMarble · Feb 27, 2005

victoriastrauss said:
...this has to be one of the dumbest articles on this subject I've ever seen. I wouldn't even know where to start a response.

How about starting with "Dear Doofus"?

Did you see the quote from the guy who said "If they have a best seller, they also have the ability to sell." Huh? Oh, yeah, that Patrick O'Brian, he went from store to store and did lots of booksignings and appeared on talk shows and... Oh, wait. No, he didn't.

And then there's Thomas Harris, no stranger to the best-seller list, who has done few, if any, interviews.

WhisperingBard · Feb 27, 2005

I just wanted to offer a word of support to the brave person who posted this. Yes, doing your homework is important. People do research before they buy a car, before they decide on a career... They should do it before they publish a book.

Sometimes, when people enter situations for which they have no background, they don't know enough, don't have enough information, to ask the right questions.

Sure, perhaps some - maybe even many - PA authors didn't do their homework. But shouldn't we focus on PA, who set up a company to deliberately con, confuse, and mislead authors, rather than telling them, "hey, too bad, you should have done your homework"?

All I'm saying is, why rub salt in the wound? What purpose does it serve?

Literary Lola · Feb 27, 2005

Gotta love that LBS on the PA thread

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11722.htm

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11722.htm
Dear LBS:

This book has been going full steam ahead with everyone's approval and satisfaction
for some time now John CK and Sherry Moore have gone out of their ways to put this all together with an awful lot of work..that was approved by P.A.
I doubt that anyone will be making much money out of this, since it is hard enough to collect royalties even on our single books.. but the whole idea is that we will all be featured and thus it will give us more exposure. I'm happy with that.
Now you want to join in, that is fine, but stop already with the criticism, and inquiries ad nauseum, no one asked you to join and if you decide not to, that will be fine as well!

Pierrette.

I'll give LBS about five seconds to loose her password or be forced to apologize for taking such a tone. This Pierette lady strikes me as one who has imbibed too much Koolaide. Anyone who tells someone else to button up for asking intelligent questions is a PAvidian. I'm sorry if this term is now un-PC, but I'm hanged if I can come up with anything else that fits.

As to this lady's comment about how no one will make much money on this "project," I beg to disagree. Methinks the Unholy Trinity will see plenty from this boondoggle. After all, why agree to the "project?" Duhhh.

Go LBS.

T42 · Feb 27, 2005

Susan Gable said:
I just wanted to offer a word of support to the brave person who posted this. Yes, doing your homework is important. People do research before they buy a car, before they decide on a career... They should do it before they publish a book.

please, don't take offense at what's been said here. If you tried to research PA before signing with them, good for you. There's a lot more information out there NOW then there was earlier, so it's not your fault that you didn't find it when you looked.

Susan G.

Facts are, even though I may be ignorant about publishing a book I did do some homework.
I sent them many letters questioning them about stuff. Emailed other authors with questions and had no one tell me any different. I did browse to see info on PA and at the time didn’t find any other then a couple of comments by people who had bad language and sounded like perverts so I didn’t concern myself with there comments about PA. So, what some consider doing homework and what I consider doing homework can be two different things.

I did not find out how much my book was going to sale for until it was out. I did not know that they lied about B&N and other things because I could not get any response from anyone at the local B&N stores. I did not know that my book would not be to my satisfaction until I got it in the mail.

Many of us are naïve about publishing because it is our first attempt at it. For many reasons we get hooked up with the wrong people but to what degree a person is ignorant about it is anyone’s guess so there you have it!

As a part of my editing this post I took out a story that I wouldn't want lurkers to get ahold of. I wouldn't want to give PA any type of satisfaction!

Kevin Yarbrough · Feb 27, 2005

CaoPaux said:
CJ, as much as I sympathize with your difficulties in being "welcomed" back, you dug a very deep hole for yourself, and not everyone was willing to throw you a rope after you flung dirt on them. The longer you can resist further digs, the greater chance your previous behavior will be forgotten.

So, "PAvidian" is too disparaging a term to describe the rabid supporters, who against all reason spout misinformation and hatred against critics? Then we’ll need a term that is relevant, yet without immediate negative connotation.

These are probably out…

PArasite
PAriah
PAranoid
PAtsy

How about one of these?

PArtisan
PAtriot
PAcifier
PAntomime
PAtron

This one is my personal favorite:

PAlliator (one who covers with excuses and apologies)

How about PApologist? Since they all "defend of attempt to justify a doctrine, faith, or action" and PA can fall into all three of those categories.

astonwest · Feb 27, 2005

Royalties?

Pierrette said:
since it is hard enough to collect royalties even on our single books.

I'm surprised that slipped through...

T42 · Feb 27, 2005

Thanks Sherry and Bard for the support. I think it is true that we as PA suckers should have done more homework but as I said, we did what we could and what we thought we should. I'm not saying that everyone did because I don't know anyone's situation but mine and to be made to feel like more of an idiot then we already do is not what I came on this board for. I came to find help stopping PA from doing this to more people like myself. We all know the facts, I'm here for solutions.

akaa1a · Feb 27, 2005

Message:
Dear people,

I think the point that LBS is trying to make, is that what we are talking about creating here is a P.A. author catalogue. This is something that all traditional publishers put out each year FOR FREE! It lists all their authors, talks about their books, and has pictures included.

I agree with LBS. What is your target market for this book? Bookstores and libraries are not going to buy something that they get for FREE from other publishers.

Sorry for your nauseum pierotte, you can take some tums for that. I think some people have very valid points here, and to insult or get accused of being critical for merely stating the obvious is ridiculous.

********

RE: PA Accepts 200 AUTHORS

Message:
Forgive me, Pierrette, for throwing up all over your post with my inquiry. I have never been accused of having any "ad Nauseum" bones in my body! Quite the contrary!

The organizers of this project DID ask me to join the 200 Book along with the 10,000 other PA authors you call family.
Is this a project only open to the "A" list of PA posters or can we all join.
If the answer is yes, then don't be afraid to waste your time answering easy questions.

Thanks ******, for understanding. I'm off to throw up now!

Tis a sad day in PA land!
Throwing up, gnashing of teeth, and refusal to answer questions from authors?
I forgot, that's just another day at the office for PA.
No one here is afraid to answer the tough questions or belittles anyone for using a few brain cells!

victoriastrauss · Feb 27, 2005

Research

I completely, totally agree about research, and about the peculiar aversion to it many aspiring writers show. A smart writer does his/her homework, but many writers seem to want to skip this step.

However, in fairness to a lot of the PA folks, until fairly recently it was very difficult to find any negative mentions of PA. Angry PA authors weren't writing articles or giving interviews. The first authors' message board started up by disgruntled PA people was closed down by PA. The second, which is still going strong, somehow never gets picked up by search engines. Apart from P&E's "not recommended" and, starting in 2003, the comments on this thread, anyone googling PA would come up with page after page of happy websites, author interviews, and press releases.

- Victoria

JennaGlatzer · Feb 27, 2005

Wow, there are some great responses on those two PA threads today. I think we're about to have some more writing buddies. Way to go to those who were brave enough to ask questions.

You're absolutely right: the "200 author" project is a catalog, it's what real publishers send to bookstores free, and neither bookstores nor readers will have any incentive to buy it. I'm not even touching on how the royalty money will be spent; I'm just saying that this is not a well-thought-out plan and will do no good for the authors involved.

(Dolan, you were actually pointing out something good there: the PA authors who were asking great questions. I'd never have a problem with that! That just means it's time to roll out the welcome mat for Sooty, LBS, etc. :Thumbs:

)

Kevin Yarbrough · Feb 27, 2005

JennaGlatzer said:
Dolan, please don't negate what I just said by making fun of a PA poster.

Ed, there's a reason I put the e-mail there in the first place. It's not the first time someone has e-mailed me with similar sentiments.

We have an important "mission" here, but if we alienate the very same people we're trying to help, we lose.

We're not fighting PA for the hell of it. We're fighting to help its authors understand what the real publishing world is like, what they should be able to expect from a publisher, what's wrong with PA's business model and why it will hurt them if they want to start a writing career, etc.

The problem comes when someone begins to see the light, then comes over here and gets the wrong impression because they haven't read all the back posts and don't understand where our characterizations come from. I do not want to think that someone who could really use a safe place to land when having their "awakening" (like the girl who cried at the bookstore) might come here, see terms like "PAvidian" and posts like the one Dolan just made, and think we're just out to make fun of them and we think they're fools.

I'm not prohibiting the term; I'm not that much of a control freak. I'm just saying that our mission becomes much more effective if we take care to ensure that the people we want to help don't believe we're laughing at them. When they first come here, they don't know who you consider a PAvidian. It can sound like a sweeping term for any PA author. I do think there's a cult-like atmosphere. I do think that whether or not a "category 4" as Nicole defined it exists, there are a few PA boosters who darn well should be ashamed of themselves for being so selfish as to keep others "in line" just so they can preserve their own self-esteem. You know who those people are, I know who those people are, but new people who show up here don't yet know those distinctions, and I don't want anyone thinking we mean to paint all PAers with the same brush.

That's important to me, and it's why I think this discussion is relevant-- I still think we do a good job, but we can always do better, especially when we're getting feedback from the exact kind of people who we WANT TO ENCOURAGE to come on over here and who are on the fence about what we stand for.

Bottom line for me: We're here to help PA authors. Their publisher lied to them. We won't. And we need to make them understand that this is a safe place and they can trust us.

I agree with Jenna, PAvidian is a word that not many people understand. Many PA authors will think it is a broad sweep of anybody that has not "seen the light and switched sides". I like the term, but I know what it means. How to fix this? Easy enough, if Jenna will allow it. At the top of the Bewares Board put up a locked page that explains the term, who it applies to, and who not. Add some other tid bit of info that the author who thinks they are being scammed can look at, dechipher, and come to terms with what they want to do. This thread is 360 pages long, it takes a long time to read through. If there was a page that no one could post on, that just pointed out certain things, it might make it easier for PA authors to see the truth. But, that's just me, and I may be wrong.

Now, Ed, don't worry bro, if you get kicked off I will leave as well. We can go have a few beers, talk about what the board will be missing with us gone and laugh about it. I will then go home, sleep off the hangover and get back on the board. Hey, didn't say how long I would leave right?

Sher2 · Feb 27, 2005

T42 said:
Thanks Sherry and Bard for the support. I think it is true that we as PA suckers should have done more homework but as I said, we did what we could and what we thought we should. I'm not saying that everyone did because I don't know anyone's situation but mine and to be made to feel like more of an idiot then we already do is not what I came on this board for. I came to find help stopping PA from doing this to more people like myself. We all know the facts, I'm here for solutions.

Trust me, Mem -- we're not idiots. We did what research was available at the time. It wasn't enough; the tell-tale info. didn't come to light until after I'd already signed the contract. I definitely don't feel like an idiot here, though, where the same thing happened to a number of people. We are now much better informed consumers and better educated writers. We won't get burned again.

Kevin Yarbrough · Feb 27, 2005

Jonathon Michaels said:
No, you're probably in the right spot. I've offered space on exactly the same page as the review.

I know that he came to the site, looked at a few other pages, and then looked at the review. That's the last I've seen him. I've received no reply to the email nor has he posted on the boards to my knowledge.

It's interesting that nobody's picked this up yet, and we've got a lot of PA authors on both sides of the tracks that frequent or occasionally visit our site. There (to my knowledge) have been no posts on either the public or private boards on the PA site. Even stranger, we've received no email at all. None. Usually someone is so blatantly in on the "conspiracy against PA" and something is said. Oh well, I ramble, we just found that curious. We didn't expect them to stop what they were doing, but we were braced for a couple of snide remarks and an email or two. Must be too busy covering their behinds on other issues to notice.

Chris, if he offers a public rebuttal I'll email you and put something on this board when it happens. I'll also update everyone if we hear back from them concerning our issues with the book being published as-is.

Jonathon

Jonothan, you will probably get a letter from their attorney in a few months stating what you did was fraud, or slander, and how what you said has hurt their chance at getting new authors. They will send the letter to the FBI and your local cop shop.

Now, as for a fourth category in the PA cycle? Yeah, I think there is. There might only be enough people I can cont on my hands, but I think there is one. They are the ones that can make you an enemy if you post something wrong on the PA board. We know who they are, so I'm not saying...Marcus...names.

Dolan · Feb 27, 2005

Jenna

So how come I don't get a reputation point?

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

haz a shiny new book cover

Preditors & Editors

Giggle Collector

Writer Beware Goddess

Auroraless ExPAtriate

Dreamer of dreams, teller of tales

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Wary...and weary

Herb Lady

Will write for peace of mind

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment

Herb Lady

Giggle Collector

Writer Beware Goddess

wishes you happiness

Will write for peace of mind

Auroraless ExPAtriate

Will write for peace of mind