The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

tlblack said:

Welcome back to AW Barbara. I hope you'll stick around.

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Welcome back, and I hope you will stay as well.

ResearchGuy said:

I asked a friend of mine if the PA book she had ordered in response to one of those hundred-friends-and-family postcards had arrived. (The author is a mutual acquantance via a local writers club.) Here is my friend's reply:



There ya go . . . a real customer orders a book and sends payment and . . . nada.

Maybe PA waits for the check to clear before placing the order.

--Ken

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Members of my family, and some friends all ordered and never recieved books. They are checking through credit card statements to see if the deductions for the book are there.

Show Me The Money!

As tlblack pointed out (a well traveled rut in the printing world) from my experience (and I use that word with a great deal of authority) PublishAmerica taps into the ego, and pride emotions of the first-time author. It is my understanding that one of the co-owners of PublishAmerica has it all figured out. In addition, I hear-tell that he possesses a degree in psychology (I could have been given misinformation).

As a side note, I am getting dang tired of qualifying my statements. My recent posts have been put under the microscope as of late - and it is getting quite irritating.

Unfortunately, the majority of first-time authors don't have four cents to make a nickle to spend on print promotion (bookmarks, advertisements in local and national newspapers, magazines, etc). That is why PublishAmerica asks for a list of at least one hundred names and addresses of the author's friends, relatives, and acqaintances. My analysis is not "la-de-da" thinking, as one of this forum's esteemed poster's once pointed out (cough!).

How many times have we covered this situation? Too many. Yet, the first-time author doesn't do the research before submitting their manuscript. When I was researching PublishAmerica there was not that much written on the Web, and AW was in its infancy. Tracy was one of the first group of people who fell hook-line & sinker into PublishAmerica's very seductive trap.

Tracy & I met on the old PublishAmerica Public and Private boards. We became friends. When the timing fell into place - we hooked-up and I moved to South Dakota. The H.B. death hoax happened and PublishAmerica showed their true colours (I like the Brit way of spelling the word "color").

To this day, I can't comprehend the fact that the arbitration ruling against PublishAmerica - brought forth by Mr. Dolan didn't reverberate throughout the publishing realm. The Better Business Bureau is still trumpeting that printing joint, with the disclaimer that the books produced may or may not be shelved in bookstores.

Also, PublishAmerica has invited one of their author's to inspect their accounting books with regards to royalty payments. No, you can't bring an accountant with you - and you must show proof (receipts) of books purchased by people to compare to PublishAmerica's accounting books.

One day, an author - as irrational as it may appear, will take up PublishAmerica's invitation to squeeze out one or two dollars in royalty payments - and the author will foot the bill for plane fare (or gas / wear and tear money on their car), motel bill, meals, and pay them a visit.

In my very vivid imagination, I would perceive that the author will be strip-searched before entering the building (for security reasons), escorted to a room and be presented with one piece of paper indicating how many books were sold. Expanding on this scenario, the piece of paper will not indicate if the book was purchased through a brick & mortar bookstore, through a Web site, or PublishAmerica's own Web site.

Can you imagine a person going through all that trouble just to satisfy their own suspicions that PublishAmerica was "holding-out" on them? Not in my wild-less dreams would I go through that much trouble (unless someone or an organization ordered over two hundred books, and I found that I was "shorted" (perceived as a "satanic" word that scared the heck out of one of the employee's of PublishAmerica, as stated in a deposition in the Dolan case) royalty payments and I had proof.

I don't know - maybe it's me. Maybe, I just don't get it. The Media is not interested. The Government is not interested because the tie that bonds the author to PublishAmerica is a Business to Business relationship. Yet, slowly - very slowly, as the rank and file author's who sign on with PublishAmerica will figure out they have been robbed in broad daylight.

When Tracy first signed on with PublishAmerica, the contract stated that PublishAmerica had sole rights to her book for eighty-five years! To add insult to injury, they had first dib's on her second book. They have since revised the contract to seven years - which is to long to begin with!

Well, that is my story and I'm sticking to it!

Gary Rogers

TracySutterer & GaryRogers said:

Unfortunately, the majority of first-time authors don't have four cents to make a nickle to spend on print promotion (bookmarks, advertisements in local and national newspapers, magazines, etc). That is why PublishAmerica asks for a list of at least one hundred names and addresses of the author's friends, relatives, and acqaintances. My analysis is not "la-de-da" thinking, as one of this forum's esteemed poster's once pointed out (cough!).

How many times have we covered this situation? Too many. Yet, the first-time author doesn't do the research before submitting their manuscript. When I was researching PublishAmerica there was not that much written on the Web, and AW was in its infancy. Tracy was one of the first group of people who fell hook-line & sinker into PublishAmerica's very seductive trap. <<snip>>

Also, PublishAmerica has invited one of their author's to inspect their accounting books with regards to royalty payments. No, you can't bring an accountant with you - and you must show proof (receipts) of books purchased by people to compare to PublishAmerica's accounting books.

One day, an author - as irrational as it may appear, will take up PublishAmerica's invitation to squeeze out one or two dollars in royalty payments - and the author will foot the bill for plane fare (or gas / wear and tear money on their car), motel bill, meals, and pay them a visit.

In my very vivid imagination, I would perceive that the author will be strip-searched before entering the building (for security reasons), escorted to a room and be presented with one piece of paper indicating how many books were sold. Expanding on this scenario, the piece of paper will not indicate if the book was purchased through a brick & mortar bookstore, through a Web site, or PublishAmerica's own Web site.

Can you imagine a person going through all that trouble just to satisfy their own suspicions that PublishAmerica was "holding-out" on them? Not in my wild-less dreams would I go through that much trouble (unless someone or an organization ordered over two hundred books, and I found that I was "shorted" (perceived as a "satanic" word that scared the heck out of one of the employee's of PublishAmerica, as stated in a deposition in the Dolan case) royalty payments and I had proof.

I don't know - maybe it's me. Maybe, I just don't get it. The Media is not interested. The Government is not interested because the tie that bonds the author to PublishAmerica is a Business to Business relationship. Yet, slowly - very slowly, as the rank and file author's who sign on with PublishAmerica will figure out they have been robbed in broad daylight.

Gary Rogers

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Gary,

Some good points.

Publish America banks oon the fact that their authors (as a whole) are ignorant of real publishing and have no money for promotion AND have no real comprehension about the industry as a whole.

PA knows that no author will be able to take time away from work, pay a CPA to accompany them to Fortress Frederick and put their ledgers under a microscope. In my line of work I've conducted many financial audits in both government and private industry; usually after the lawyers and feds have been hired.

Publish America will not volunteer any more data than they provide their author during an "Audit" session. Burden of proof is on the author. As Dave K has already proved along with Phil Dolan, PA is a scam, they continue to misrepresent royalties and sell books after contract termination.

PA does play to personal vanity, that's part of their game. The bottom line is; The formula works. We can minimize the casualties, but we, alone, will never be able to close them down. I think we all realize this. In my opinion it would take some sort of legal action with multiple authors filing valid greivances with an overwhelming amount of documentation to close those doors. The bottom line is that for most burned authors the loss of one PA book isn't worth the expenses or the aggrivation. PAvidians either fall away into the abyss or come here and become advocates against PA and work to inform others.

Not happy news or tidings but reality seldom is covered with roses and perfume. PA is a stinking cesspool, but sadly some are happy ti swim there, some don't know what they're swiming in until they run headlong into a pile of shi*. Sadly, there's nothin more we can do than what we're doing. We all have lives and jobs to contend with. By posting PA's activities here and keeping this forum alive and welcoming PA fallaways, like we were welcomed, we can help some not not all.

G, if you're going to make statments and tout them as 'fact', you better be prepared to have them examined.

That's all I'll say.

Nothing PA does revereberates through the publishing world, because PA isn't part of the publishing world. It should have revereberated with PA's authors though, which at the time I think it did, even if it was just a little.

bstevens said:

I can't figure out why I am on 10 websites and I did a 4000 email subscriber campaign and only received $8.

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Contrary to what you read on the PAMB, web listings and emails do not sell books. Bookstores sell books.

TracySutterer & GaryRogers said:

To this day, I can't comprehend the fact that the arbitration ruling against PublishAmerica - brought forth by Mr. Dolan didn't reverberate throughout the publishing realm. The Better Business Bureau is still trumpeting that printing joint, with the disclaimer that the books produced may or may not be shelved in bookstores.

Gary Rogers

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The BBB does nothing for business to business transactions. And that is what the author/printerpublisher relationship is considered.

Now those of you had books ordered that were never received, you can put in a claim with the BBB. But the problem is that if PA does send the book, the matter is considered resolved by the BBB.

bstevens said:

I can't figure out why I am on 10 websites and I did a 4000 email subscriber campaign and only received $8.

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because PA books are, for the most part, overpriced and unedited and impossible to sell.

you may have a good book but there's no way you can sell it when the price is out of the range for that genre and you can't get it into bookstores.

don't believe that PA idiot who keeps blathering that bookstores don't sell books - go down to your local bookstore and look around. Those people buy books. I've yet to see bookstores closing by the hundreds and everyone rushing to buy online.

get out of your contract with PA, write another book while waiting and move onwards and upwards!

Sparhawk said:

--snipped--

PA does play to personal vanity, that's part of their game. The bottom line is; The formula works. We can minimize the casualties, but we, alone, will never be able to close them down. I think we all realize this. In my opinion it would take some sort of legal action with multiple authors filing valid greivances with an overwhelming amount of documentation to close those doors. The bottom line is that for most burned authors the loss of one PA book isn't worth the expenses or the aggrivation. PAvidians either fall away into the abyss or come here and become advocates against PA and work to inform others.

Not happy news or tidings but reality seldom is covered with roses and perfume. PA is a stinking cesspool, but sadly some are happy ti swim there, some don't know what they're swiming in until they run headlong into a pile of shi*. Sadly, there's nothin more we can do than what we're doing. We all have lives and jobs to contend with. By posting PA's activities here and keeping this forum alive and welcoming PA fallaways, like we were welcomed, we can help some not not all.

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I think the only way to really hurt PA would be if a large group of authors sent in and had mss accepted by PA, got their two copies and did nothing. I believe (CMIIW) that Uncle Jim has said that PA spends $300 initially for the book. If 100 authors did as I suggested, then PA would be out $30,000. If enought people did this, it would cut into PA's profit, which is all they care about.

Ok, there are probably 100 flaws in my plan. But it would definitely cost them money, which is a fun thing to think about.

bstevens said:

I can't figure out why I am on 10 websites and I did a 4000 email subscriber campaign and only received $8.

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Well, to be honest with you, if I got an email advertising a book, I wouldn't buy it no matter how much it cost. I like to read books, or at least read the first few pages, before I buy them - which means that the books have to be in bookstores and libraries first.

Sheryl Nantus said:

get out of your contract with PA, write another book while waiting

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And then find a publisher who will market the book for you. A writer's main input should be writing the book, not selling it.

The only book I ever bought without perusing through it first was Caleb Carr's The Alienist. I'd read a review in the New York Times and went to buy it the next day. I might have looked at the inside flap, but I was buying it no matter what. But he was the exception to the rule and it was an NYT review - not some stranger sending me spam.

I'm in the process of reading the Newberry winners (and re-reading the ones I read as a kid). I buy them online. Otherwise, I go to the bookstore.

spike said:

I'm in the process of reading the Newberry winners (and re-reading the ones I read as a kid). I buy them online. Otherwise, I go to the bookstore.

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Ditto.

The only exceptions I make if its an author I know and I've read them before and its part of an series I love (LWE's Ethshar books are ordered online, sight unseen).

bstevens said:

I can't figure out why I am on 10 websites and I did a 4000 email subscriber campaign and only received $8.

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I have received a few unsolicited emails from people I don't know (or know only slightly from a message board or mail loop) asking me to buy the author's book. All have been vanity press/self-publish POD.

My answer always contains two things:

1. Please do not spam me again.
2. I will not buy your book because I don't support spam.

An ad in a newspaper or magazine, a review, a recommendation from someone I know -- those I trust. If someone pops up on a message board promoting their book, I might look. Putting junk in my mail box? That goes on the automatic "don't buy" list.

Last time I received one of those, a number of my friends (the addresses had been harvested from the same list) did as well. Most of them deleted the email without opening it. That's how effective email campaigns can be.

Queen of Swords said:

. . .And then find a publisher who will market the book for you. A writer's main input should be writing the book, not selling it.

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Selling is not the same as marketing.

Some here might find of interest Pam Brodowsky and Eric Neuhaus's Bulletproof Book Proposals (Writer's Digest Books, 2006), esp. chapter 6. Note third par. on p. 48 in particular. Also of related interest, chapter 22 of Michael Larsen's How to Get a Literary Agent (Sourcebooks, 2006). (Larsen is a long-established literary agent--Larsen/Pomada agency.) And, too: chapter 11 of Brian Hill and Dee Power's The Making of a Bestseller (Dearborn Trade Publishing, 2005).

Of course none of their advice is applicable to PA books/authors, as PA books are not marketable--not in any meaningful sense--no matter how good the book itself might be.

--Ken

Caro said:

I have received a few unsolicited emails from people I don't know (or know only slightly from a message board or mail loop) asking me to buy the author's book. All have been vanity press/self-publish POD.

My answer always contains two things:

1. Please do not spam me again.
2. I will not buy your book because I don't support spam.

An ad in a newspaper or magazine, a review, a recommendation from someone I know -- those I trust. If someone pops up on a message board promoting their book, I might look. Putting junk in my mail box? That goes on the automatic "don't buy" list.

Last time I received one of those, a number of my friends (the addresses had been harvested from the same list) did as well. Most of them deleted the email without opening it. That's how effective email campaigns can be.

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I, too, have received emails promoting a vanity press published book. It arrives in my junk mail and immediately goes to the trash bin.

I buy books at bookstores, swap meets, and thrift stores.

ResearchGuy said:

Selling is not the same as marketing.

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My bad. I didn't want to use the word "marketing" twice, but that was what I meant. Of course, it's up to the writer to get the book to a legitimate publisher, but then it's up to the publisher to get the book out to the readers.

bstevens said:

I can't figure out why I am on 10 websites and I did a 4000 email subscriber campaign and only received $8.

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Aw, bstevens, it's unfortunate that you had to learn the truth this way. You might want to compare your actual experience with your initial impressions that PA misled you to believe, which you talked about when you joined AW. Maybe you can join the growing number of people who are speaking out against PA's terrible business practices and the lies they tell authors. You are living proof.

Someone on page 2 of that thread wondered how your first royalty check might make you feel... please share your feelings with other authors, to prevent any more good people from being hurt by PA.

I hope you can get out of your contract and get your books sent to publishers who will work to sell them!

bstevens said:

I can't figure out why I am on 10 websites and I did a 4000 email subscriber campaign and only received $8.

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I am so sorry for what you're experiencing right now. I remember your first post and the joy and happiness you felt seeing your book. I take no joy in your pain having been EXACTLY where you are right now.

Your book should be in bookstores on a shelf published by a real, reputable publisher. Not by a sleazy printer. I don't know how many of your own books you self purchased, but you'll not see royalties on those. An E-mail campaign of 4000 won't get you all that much either. When I worked at Bank OF America (Formerly Fleet Bank) if they got a response of 2.6 percent on a direct mail campaign they considered the run a moderate success. Let's assume that you had the same result; and that many people read your e-mail and didn't simply trash it as spam, you had 104 people read your promotion. Maybe 2.6 percoent of these people bought your book. That would equate to 2.7 (round up) to three sales. Again, I'm assuming that your mail had no demographic research involved such as statistical samplings of the population you mailed to pertaining to thier liklihood to purchase books from an online venue, that are amenable to unknown authors, or even read recreationally enough to consider a book purchase or even read your genre, etc. There are a bunch of other demographics that come into play and I don't have time to cover them all here. 4000 E-mails may have generated 3 sales. I don't know what you paid for the mailing but if your book sold for $19.95 (a favorite PA pricing point) you made $4.78 in royalties assuming the books sold at that price and weren't discounted.

I guess we can assume that the other three dollars and change came from one or two copies sold on line.

I'm not saying this to be hurtful because I have a box of my own PA books in a shelf downstairs along with the Visa bill invoice that my wife was kind enough to circle and highlight bright yellow.

The bottom line (in my opinion) is simply that if you want to sell books, you need to have a reputable publisher that will actually edit your manuscript, have established credibility in the publishing industry and be able to get your book on bookstore sheves across the fruited plain and from sea to shining sea. Christine Norris can elaborate further here, her knowledge of the entire publishing process far exceeds my own.

But in order to sell a product, that product has to have several key things;

1. A demand by a consumer base
2. Easy accessibilty to make the purchase
3. A price that doesn't exceed competitors pricing points
4. A distribution node capable of ordering/ delivering said prodict in an efficint and timely manner.

With all respects, Publish America has none of these. There is no demand for PA books beyond your family and friends. Bookstores will not accept or stock PA books. PA books are overpriced, and they cannot handle large bulk orders efficiently. There are other variables in the above equation, I just picked four for the sake of this discussion.

Having considered all the above; Did Publish America really give your book the chance it deserved? I know my book didn't get that chance.

Again, I am sincerely sorry for what you're experiencing. Nobody should have to go through it.

Let me caveat that I made many assumptions in my model based on a single sentence that you posted. You may have had a great statistical sample for your e-mailing campaign and the electronic e-mail response rates may be greater than snail mail. The web traffic on your chosen sited may be higher than the norm. I simply tried to offer some rationale as to why you didn't get the large volume you were anticipating.

I hope your next check is higher and that your book is the success you want it to be.

Very respectfully,

-Sparhawk

spike said:

I think the only way to really hurt PA would be if a large group of authors sent in and had mss accepted by PA, got their two copies and did nothing. I believe (CMIIW) that Uncle Jim has said that PA spends $300 initially for the book. If 100 authors did as I suggested, then PA would be out $30,000. If enought people did this, it would cut into PA's profit, which is all they care about.

Ok, there are probably 100 flaws in my plan. But it would definitely cost them money, which is a fun thing to think about.

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I suspect that the best way to prove that PA can't sell good books no matter what is for an established, major writer to have a book published through them, and then for the writer to only participate in the publicity the publisher arranged for that book--just as they would when published through a commercial publisher. Sadly, I don't know of any established writers who can/would do this, but if anyone would, I bet we'd see sales of a few tens, maybe into the hundreds, compared with sales in the thousands if the book had been published with a real publisher. Now, THAT would show everyone what's what in the "traditionally published" world.

Old Hack said:

I suspect that the best way to prove that PA can't sell good books no matter what is for an established, major writer to have a book published through them, and then for the writer to only participate in the publicity the publisher arranged for that book--just as they would when published through a commercial publisher. Sadly, I don't know of any established writers who can/would do this, but if anyone would, I bet we'd see sales of a few tens, maybe into the hundreds, compared with sales in the thousands if the book had been published with a real publisher. Now, THAT would show everyone what's what in the "traditionally published" world.

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Another experiment that I'd love to see (to test the claim that PA does as much/more for first-time authors than major publishers) would be a first time author with a real publisher submitting a book to PA as well and comparing the two experiences.

Old Hack said:

I suspect that the best way to prove that PA can't sell good books no matter what is for an established, major writer to have a book published through them, and then for the writer to only participate in the publicity the publisher arranged for that book--just as they would when published through a commercial publisher. Sadly, I don't know of any established writers who can/would do this, but if anyone would, I bet we'd see sales of a few tens, maybe into the hundreds, compared with sales in the thousands if the book had been published with a real publisher. Now, THAT would show everyone what's what in the "traditionally published" world.

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The problem is that many of those authors will look at all the evidence against PA and say, "But MY book is different. My book is GREAT. If only it was in print, my book would SELL."

There is an old saying that the cream always rises to the top. But at PA, they've soured the milk so there will be no visible cream.

If a big name author published with PA, don't you think they'd trumpet it all over the place? It would be "validation" of they have said to the media through the years.

zizban said:

If a big name author published with PA, don't you think they'd trumpet it all over the place? It would be "validation" of they have said to the media through the years.

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No successful author could or should waste his or her time and effort with a vanity press--PA or any other. If such an author wants to try something off on a tangent plenty of legitimate publishers (big or small) would be interested and could do the job right.

Even to prove a point it would be a waste of time and only counterproductive (indeed, "validation," or at least a lot of free publicity for the vanity press).

--Ken

I wonder how many books Jamie Farr sold??