Wow, Ed, who would have thunk it? Pierette and Tracy duking it out. I am (seriously) amazed.
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Wow, Ed, who would have thunk it? Pierette and Tracy duking it out. I am (seriously) amazed.
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There's a real sense of doom-funk over there, and it's a bit sad to see. I wonder if PA may be approaching its time of critical mass; of course, I've wondered that before. But still, I've never seen so many folks so crabby at being aboard the "happy pirate ship". Curious.Ed Williams said:
And Sher, didn't we do away with this little guy? 
I could have sworn that was us having banana splits the other night.
(OMG, maybe they're...breeding??)
I could have sworn that was us having banana splits the other night.(OMG, maybe they're...breeding??)
Are they really?! I haven't read those boards in quite a while but I guess I'm going to have to suck it in, grab my barf bag, and go take a look. This, I gotta see.WhisperingBard said:Wow, Ed, who would have thunk it? Pierette and Tracy duking it out. I am (seriously) amazed.
Nah, we decided to let him live another day. That was a weaker, uglier banana we caught and split. I think his name was Larry. At least, that's what it sounded like he was squealing as he drowned in chocolate sauce.WhisperingBard said:And Sher, didn't we do away with this little guy?
(OMG, maybe they're...breeding??)
If these little suckers are breeding, we're going to have to call in The Termite Guy.
WhisperingBard said:Wow, Ed, who would have thunk it? ***** and ***** duking it out. I am (seriously) amazed.
There are always certain people over there who group themselves together in tight little groups - that they label friends.
Lord forbid someone should ask a question or make a suggestion on the PA boards. Not only does PA hate it, but so do most of the authors.
Funny how they can fight amongst themselves just for asking a freakin' question, but they do not question PA. How ironic.
I updated my webpage today and added Travis Tea to the list of people who have influenced me creatively. Just thought I'd share that.
Bear with me, I been working through all of the posts and issues that have been brought up over the past few days and I freely admit that I feel "conflicted" about this whole thing.
If you say the words "vanity" or "subsidy" publisher to me, my answer is a publisher where you pay to have your book published. We already know that a traditional publisher doesn't make the author pay to have the book published. We also know what a "self-published" book is. So in a court of law if I'm asked point blank if I paid to have my book published, my answer is "no, I did not." If I'm asked did I self-publish my book, my answer is "no, I did not." Therein lies the conflict. If PA is none of the above where do they fit? Apparently somewhere in the nether region in between.
I generally support the alleged stated purpose of what PA supposedly stands for- giving first time authors a chance at getting their work published. Where they've gone wrong is that PA has developed a business model to keep costs low which basically forces the author to become extremely creative in terms of trying to market the book. Someone brought up the other day that some of the PA authors were talking about setting up their own distribution in order to get their books in the stores. That was an idea I had thought about as a way to get around the no-return nonsense. But that involves a monetary investment and I'm simply not willing to do that.
Where they've also gone wrong is the whole assembly line process PA uses to publish the books. It's obvious that the people working in editing must work under some type of time quota because it's clear that the books aren't being properly edited. For example, my book had 73 screw ups- most of them chapter number mistakes- that a competent editor should have caught and corrected before my book was printed. Again, to their credit, after I proofread my copy of the book and raised the issue to them they did fix the mistakes so that any book that was sent out from there was correct. But it should never got to that point to begin with.
My mental picture of the three amigos you all keep talking about is the image of a bad used car salesman trying to pass off a 1974 Ford Pinto as state of the art. I get that these people are consummate spin artists. But I guess I'm having a hard time finding the "f-word" in this- fraud.
The editing problem is a work product issue. They are editing the book, just not very well. No difference from taking your car to the shop and having your tires rotated. You drive home and one of the tires fall off. Work product problem.
Are they being misleading about the books being stocked at a bookstore? I don't know. I guess it just depends on what the definition of "is" is.
In a perfect world where I ran PA or had my own publishing house, I would do much of what PA is doing with the exception of : 1.) I would significantly cut down the number of books produced per year, 2.) concentrate on promoting new authors and find a way to get them space in the stores, 3.) edit the hell out of the books. I think much of PA's stated purpose is noble. I also think that somewhere along the way that noble purpose has been grossly preverted.
DISCLAIMER: The following is me probably taking things too personally. It's the "stand up for the little guy, populist" side of me rearing it's ugly head. But part of writing is being able to express emotions and feelings and conveying them coherently.
I've read here, "sure I'll read your book when it gets released by a 'real' publisher" and for some reason that really bothers me. So does "we won't review your book because it's not from a "real" publisher. And I also have an issue with the Author's Guild.
First off, it seems as if the 16 months I spent working on this project is invalidated simply because PA says they are a traditional publisher, someone else says they're not.
Second, I strongly feel that my book should stand or fall on its own merits just like any other book from any other "real" publisher would- period. It shouldn't matter who's name is listed as the publisher. And if it does, I'll gladly put a sticker over the PA logo and white out any PA reference. Look, to me the story is the thing, the characters are what it's all about, and being able to weave the two together is the magic. Not two words that serve as a lightning rod. If my book sucks, it sucks because it sucks- not because it came from "x" publisher. And I can deal with that.
Third, I buy the book if it piques my curiousity- not because of who publishes it. Personally, I tend to gravitate towards to satirical, off-the-wall books such as "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" or this other book I've heard about called "Atlanta Nights." But that's just me.
Okay, I'm done. I apologize for going on so long. Part of it is nerves from getting married in four days; most of it is from geniunely trying to work through this in my mind. I understand that I'm probably overly idealistic here. Guys, I believe I am an independent thinking kind of guy- what am I missing here?
Bear with me, I been working through all of the posts and issues that have been brought up over the past few days and I freely admit that I feel "conflicted" about this whole thing.
If you say the words "vanity" or "subsidy" publisher to me, my answer is a publisher where you pay to have your book published. We already know that a traditional publisher doesn't make the author pay to have the book published. We also know what a "self-published" book is. So in a court of law if I'm asked point blank if I paid to have my book published, my answer is "no, I did not." If I'm asked did I self-publish my book, my answer is "no, I did not." Therein lies the conflict. If PA is none of the above where do they fit? Apparently somewhere in the nether region in between.
I generally support the alleged stated purpose of what PA supposedly stands for- giving first time authors a chance at getting their work published. Where they've gone wrong is that PA has developed a business model to keep costs low which basically forces the author to become extremely creative in terms of trying to market the book. Someone brought up the other day that some of the PA authors were talking about setting up their own distribution in order to get their books in the stores. That was an idea I had thought about as a way to get around the no-return nonsense. But that involves a monetary investment and I'm simply not willing to do that.
Where they've also gone wrong is the whole assembly line process PA uses to publish the books. It's obvious that the people working in editing must work under some type of time quota because it's clear that the books aren't being properly edited. For example, my book had 73 screw ups- most of them chapter number mistakes- that a competent editor should have caught and corrected before my book was printed. Again, to their credit, after I proofread my copy of the book and raised the issue to them they did fix the mistakes so that any book that was sent out from there was correct. But it should never got to that point to begin with.
My mental picture of the three amigos you all keep talking about is the image of a bad used car salesman trying to pass off a 1974 Ford Pinto as state of the art. I get that these people are consummate spin artists. But I guess I'm having a hard time finding the "f-word" in this- fraud.
The editing problem is a work product issue. They are editing the book, just not very well. No difference from taking your car to the shop and having your tires rotated. You drive home and one of the tires fall off. Work product problem.
Are they being misleading about the books being stocked at a bookstore? I don't know. I guess it just depends on what the definition of "is" is.
In a perfect world where I ran PA or had my own publishing house, I would do much of what PA is doing with the exception of : 1.) I would significantly cut down the number of books produced per year, 2.) concentrate on promoting new authors and find a way to get them space in the stores, 3.) edit the hell out of the books. I think much of PA's stated purpose is noble. I also think that somewhere along the way that noble purpose has been grossly preverted.
DISCLAIMER: The following is me probably taking things too personally. It's the "stand up for the little guy, populist" side of me rearing it's ugly head. But part of writing is being able to express emotions and feelings and conveying them coherently.
I've read here, "sure I'll read your book when it gets released by a 'real' publisher" and for some reason that really bothers me. So does "we won't review your book because it's not from a "real" publisher. And I also have an issue with the Author's Guild.
First off, it seems as if the 16 months I spent working on this project is invalidated simply because PA says they are a traditional publisher, someone else says they're not.
Second, I strongly feel that my book should stand or fall on its own merits just like any other book from any other "real" publisher would- period. It shouldn't matter who's name is listed as the publisher. And if it does, I'll gladly put a sticker over the PA logo and white out any PA reference. Look, to me the story is the thing, the characters are what it's all about, and being able to weave the two together is the magic. Not two words that serve as a lightning rod. If my book sucks, it sucks because it sucks- not because it came from "x" publisher. And I can deal with that.
Third, I buy the book if it piques my curiousity- not because of who publishes it. Personally, I tend to gravitate towards to satirical, off-the-wall books such as "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" or this other book I've heard about called "Atlanta Nights." But that's just me.
Okay, I'm done. I apologize for going on so long. Part of it is nerves from getting married in four days; most of it is from geniunely trying to work through this in my mind. I understand that I'm probably overly idealistic here. Guys, I believe I am an independent thinking kind of guy- what am I missing here?
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Maybe something good will come from this dispute...
...like maybe a new slogan for PublishAmerica, something like:
...like maybe a new slogan for PublishAmerica, something like:
"PA - the WWE of Traditional Publishing!"
Oh, man, I wish I were better at hacking! If I could get in there, the PA site would be a brave new world in the morning.Ed Williams said:...like maybe a new slogan for PublishAmerica, something like:
"PA - the WWE of Traditional Publishing!"
JDElder said:
Hi,
The issue over buying or reviewing a PA book isn't, I think, the principle of not buying a book from PA (I know that people on this thread have done so), but that the books are expensive, overpriced and poorly edited. And what's the point of reviewing a book that, if it's a truly remarkable book you'd want everyone to read, they would have difficulty obtaining it?
Nothing can invalidate your work and your achievements. PA has done an awful lot to limit and undermine them. It does not make you any less of a writer IMO. But the reason PA is not and cannot be a publishing credit is simply that there are no criteria for accepting manuscripts, as Atlanta Nights and the Purple Pony showed. They are a printer.
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Ed, as long as I can have my own valet, let the Smackdown begin! 
Amber- I totally agree with you in terms of how PA treats the authors. It doesn't make sense.
Amber- I totally agree with you in terms of how PA treats the authors. It doesn't make sense.
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Ed Williams said:...like maybe a new slogan for PublishAmerica, something like:
"PA - the WWE of Traditional Publishing!"
That's how I remember the old PA board days or is that daze? Anyhow, that's the problem with the PA board too many people take sides with "their friends," and nothing gets accomplished that helps to better PA..because none of them that stay will even question PA or seek for improvement. Gee, look how they turn on each other and then start choosing up sides. And Tracy was right on her post. See how they take sides and then start firing?
I added a bit, so I don't know if you will still agree. I do think that books should be judged by their merit and not by their publisher. But PA's practices mean that cannot happen. Statistically, there has to be some incredible books that PA has published. It's heartbreaking that those books will not have a chance to be judged on their merit.JDElder said:
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That's just a little bit of confusion (PA's stock in trade).Alphabeter said:
Copyright is $30. PA pays the author $1, then tells the author to copyright the book themselves. Thus, the author is out $29 before the book comes out, and the hole just gets deeper.
On PA's end, they pay out $1, plus the cost of printing and mailing the two author's copies. With their pricing, they probably earn that back if they sell 2 or three books, and most authors will do this just to have a few more to show their family.
okay, I'm confused.
what's a "spline"???
they keep babbling about it on the PA boards and I can't find it anywhere... is this actually the word "spine" and they've mangled yet another publishing concept?
thanks in advance...
what's a "spline"???
they keep babbling about it on the PA boards and I can't find it anywhere... is this actually the word "spine" and they've mangled yet another publishing concept?
thanks in advance...
JDElder
JD,
First let me tell you that I can understand fairly well where you're coming from. I used to have the same ideal when it came to PA's books. Many of the PA books I've read were outstanding in the storytelling aspect.
And I understand completely the idea of a book standing on its own merits. I don't think you'll find much of an argument against that here. I think rather that the argument against PA here -- and her books -- is the way PA authors are treated by the Publisher. The rudeness of Infocenter and the Support Team toward people who have a legitimate gripe cannot be overstated on any board. The editing problems -- I thought in finding eleven mistakes in a book that had just been 'professionally edited' was a good thing. I've since learned that that simply is not a good thing. This flies in the face of professionalism and treats, in my opinion, an author's work like so much trash. We've worked hard and long on our books; to be given a quick spell-check and that's it isn't, in my own opinion, really treasuring an author's hard work.
One thing you said, which I definitely agree with you about, is that the stated purpose of PA is a noble thing. The problem, though, is that historically what PA states and what PA does are two completely different things. I think that one of the main reasons I went with PA for my first book was the fact that I liked their stated purpose. It made sense.
But the reason I gave up on PA is the fact that what they stated is not what they did. My book belongs to them now, thanks to Par. 24 of my contract. They stated on their website that my book still belongs to me. But what the contract says is that my copyrighted book is now their property, because of a single word surgically inserted into a paragraph having to do with book printing materials and buying them back from PA. That word: Copyrights.
Now I hope you understand I believe in just about all the ideals you've stated. But PA's ideals are the issue on this thread, not mine or yours. The fact that PA has swindled several thousand people out of their own hard work... well, that's enough to PO anybody. That swindling -- that dishonesty on PA's part -- is for me, anyway, the main reason this thread is here, and the main reason people don't care for PA or its books. If you or I or any PA author were done through a 'real' publisher, our books would be of superior physical quality to those done for us by PA; they would be far better edited; and finally we would have been given a contract that is honest and easy to understand, one that doesn't surgically insert words that don't belong in any particular paragraph for the purpose of swindling us out of our precious creations.
I don't think anybody here thinks any less of you personally, for having published through PA. I've noticed they don't think any less of me; in fact, I've been reassured several times over the last few days that my being swindled by PA is the fault of a slick-talking con man, and not of my own self. I hope those words will encourage you to some extent. You're among friends here. I want you to know that.
I wish you the best with your writing, JD.
JDElder said:
JD,
First let me tell you that I can understand fairly well where you're coming from. I used to have the same ideal when it came to PA's books. Many of the PA books I've read were outstanding in the storytelling aspect.
And I understand completely the idea of a book standing on its own merits. I don't think you'll find much of an argument against that here. I think rather that the argument against PA here -- and her books -- is the way PA authors are treated by the Publisher. The rudeness of Infocenter and the Support Team toward people who have a legitimate gripe cannot be overstated on any board. The editing problems -- I thought in finding eleven mistakes in a book that had just been 'professionally edited' was a good thing. I've since learned that that simply is not a good thing. This flies in the face of professionalism and treats, in my opinion, an author's work like so much trash. We've worked hard and long on our books; to be given a quick spell-check and that's it isn't, in my own opinion, really treasuring an author's hard work.
One thing you said, which I definitely agree with you about, is that the stated purpose of PA is a noble thing. The problem, though, is that historically what PA states and what PA does are two completely different things. I think that one of the main reasons I went with PA for my first book was the fact that I liked their stated purpose. It made sense.
But the reason I gave up on PA is the fact that what they stated is not what they did. My book belongs to them now, thanks to Par. 24 of my contract. They stated on their website that my book still belongs to me. But what the contract says is that my copyrighted book is now their property, because of a single word surgically inserted into a paragraph having to do with book printing materials and buying them back from PA. That word: Copyrights.
Now I hope you understand I believe in just about all the ideals you've stated. But PA's ideals are the issue on this thread, not mine or yours. The fact that PA has swindled several thousand people out of their own hard work... well, that's enough to PO anybody. That swindling -- that dishonesty on PA's part -- is for me, anyway, the main reason this thread is here, and the main reason people don't care for PA or its books. If you or I or any PA author were done through a 'real' publisher, our books would be of superior physical quality to those done for us by PA; they would be far better edited; and finally we would have been given a contract that is honest and easy to understand, one that doesn't surgically insert words that don't belong in any particular paragraph for the purpose of swindling us out of our precious creations.
I don't think anybody here thinks any less of you personally, for having published through PA. I've noticed they don't think any less of me; in fact, I've been reassured several times over the last few days that my being swindled by PA is the fault of a slick-talking con man, and not of my own self. I hope those words will encourage you to some extent. You're among friends here. I want you to know that.
I wish you the best with your writing, JD.
JD, a big part of the problem is that PA books can't be considered professional publications, by any stretch of the imagination. Authors are notoriously bad at catching all the problems in their own works, simply because after you've seen the darn thing a few thousand times, it all starts to look the same. Therefore, a good editor is a must. And you don't get one at PA.
PA's "editors" don't edit; they proofread. (And they don't even do that very well.) There is no editing of any kind going on with those books.
When I got my proof from PA, there was very little done to it. Very little. Except my editor had decided for some strange reason to turn my formatting for a special narrative (a story within a story kind of thing) into regular text. When I asked about it, the editor said, "Oh, I guess you were right. Change it back on your copy, will you?"
Yep, a fine editor there.
A couple more corrections on typos I had missed, and that was the bulk of the editing on my book. My editor even thanked me because h/she didn't have to do much to my book!
Now, JD, my friend, I may think I'm a mighty fine writer, but I'm not *that* good, lol. Trust me, that book could have used professional editing...and it didn't get it.
*That's* why people say that PA books aren't a credit to their authors. Because they aren't the professional quality books that they should have been, and many of us believed they would have been...*if* PA had lived up to their claims.
We may have written wonderful books, but the problem is they weren't professionally edited and published. And that's why it matters whose name is listed on our books as publisher.
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Ed Williams said:
Watch your keyboard Ed! I'm a fan of Smackdown (for reasons I choose not to go into) and I will sic JBL on you!
Hmm, maybe I should consider getting John to publish with PA. I see the banner now:
John Bradshaw Layfield taking PA to WWE Smackdown!
"Got the books this morning and they look fabulous. The cover will really show up wonderfully when the tv camera photographs it from the ring with me holding it up...
Thank you again." - John
Susan Gable said:Wasn't that the title of Ed's Bug Romance Novel?
I thought it was The ICEE tour of Maryland: How Stooges can Hide in Plain Sight.
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lindylou45 said:
Hell no, PublishAmerica is in the business of making money no matter how they get it and no matter who they have to step on, step over or step through to get to the wallet.
Jenn
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Chat Rooms and Boxing Matches
Actually, PA had a chatroom on their site long long ago.
Between folks hardly being able to get in on a regular basis (or perhaps, too many people were spreading information that wasn't approved for PA author consumption...I remember talking with authors on there about the high price of books, and how it was obvious to me that they were counting on those friends and family orders, this even before I knew about the existence of places like Mindsight and AW), I believe the whole chatroom idea (at least within the confines of the PA site) died a quick death...
I should really just stay away from those PA links...it's like watching a soap opera, what with the catfights and attempts at macho-ism running rampant. Sigh.
Ed Williams said:
Actually, PA had a chatroom on their site long long ago.
Between folks hardly being able to get in on a regular basis (or perhaps, too many people were spreading information that wasn't approved for PA author consumption...I remember talking with authors on there about the high price of books, and how it was obvious to me that they were counting on those friends and family orders, this even before I knew about the existence of places like Mindsight and AW), I believe the whole chatroom idea (at least within the confines of the PA site) died a quick death...
I should really just stay away from those PA links...it's like watching a soap opera, what with the catfights and attempts at macho-ism running rampant. Sigh.
No, no, no, I have to reveal this...
....I did break down a couple of years ago and write a PA book. It was entitled:
"I Like To Write Stuff, Honey, I Just Ain't Makin No *** Money!"
P.S. Susan, if you want to read a true tale of romance, something that resonates, just go right here:
http://www.ed-williams.com/sally.html
....I did break down a couple of years ago and write a PA book. It was entitled:
"I Like To Write Stuff, Honey, I Just Ain't Makin No *** Money!"
P.S. Susan, if you want to read a true tale of romance, something that resonates, just go right here:
http://www.ed-williams.com/sally.html
robeiae said:The question is: when will we see it actually be criminal?
Rob
Well... the more we push, prod, and pressure them with evidence of their lies, the more likely they'll screw up someday, hopefully soon, and step over that very thin line onto the wrong side.
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Alphabeter said:
They're probably counting the time (part of an afternoon maybe?) it would take for staff members to run spell check and grammar check on those manuscripts, and the time (what, half an hour on a good day?) it takes another staff member to pick a cover from their clipart files.
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