Using a minor character for POV?

narselon · Aug 18, 2007

Currently my WIP in all its drafts is in the normal 3rd person limited with it only following my MC. At times I'm just bored with the narrative like its just going through the motions as required in between the much more interesting character interactions. I'm also having trouble with a few scenes later on where he is not present or is taking actions that turn him into the "bad guy" of the book. Like anyone else in this situation I'm rethinking how the story is presented and I think came across an interesting idea.

What if I told the story as a retelling by the MC's brother? What I mean by this is that he'll tell the story as a third person narrator while including his own character in descriptions and sarcastic asides. He only shows up three times with two being brief scenes and the other taking up the majority of a chapter midway through the book. In those scenes he'd refer to himself as I, possibly taking the form of what seems to be first person omniscient as he knows what both characters are thinking. This would also give me the liberty to use the scenes with only the supporting cast provided it makes sense he had an opportunity to talk and meet with them after the events of the story come to a conclusion.

Considering everything so far I think it works out perfectly. Still, I have some doubts. How would a reader react to such a strange POV? Are there any examples where this has been done? Would the scenes with the first person POV confuse the reader?

gp101 · Aug 19, 2007

To be honest, I'm confused by what you're trying to do. If you want to mix tenses, I advise against it. Sure, it's been done successfully, but it's tough, and a real tough sell for newbie novelists.

If you want multiple POV, go for it. It's done all the time, just make sure you create a new scene when you switch POVs. I have about six major characters, obviously only one MC whose POV is dominant, but I tell the story through most of them. I even use three minor characters for their POV in three separate scenes. But I made sure the real players were identified first, and these other POVs from smaller players occurred later in the book. Just my experience--not saying it's right or wrong.

narselon · Aug 19, 2007

Let me clarify. I want to use the brother as the sole POV. He is retelling the story of the MC, who in turn told everything to him before retreating into anonymous seclusion for the MC's safety. Technically this means it's all first person but you wouldn't notice it since he rarely shows up except for a few scenes.

My previous draft had multiple POVs, used mostly for either emotional impact or when the MC was not present, but it got a negative reaction when it branched out towards the end and came back with clashing POVs with several time skips in both directions.The current draft is strictly MC only which has helped me develop him more as a character instead of relying on the other main character to pick up the slack. But following him around makes things too dry and somber where his less serious brother's take on events would liven things up.

Doogs · Aug 19, 2007

narselon - You may want to check out Steven Pressfield's "Last of the Amazons". If I recall properly - it has been a few years since I read it - he uses a layered POV approach very similar to the one you are suggesting.

maestrowork · Aug 19, 2007

narselon said:
At times I'm just bored with the narrative like its just going through the motions as required in between the much more interesting character interactions.

That means you have picked the wrong MC. If other characters are more interesting than him and he's just going through the motion without a strong desire for something (love, revenge, saving the world, whatever), then it seems to me that maybe someone else really is the MC.

He only shows up three times with two being brief scenes and the other taking up the majority of a chapter midway through the book.

He's too minor but it doesn't mean he can't have a POV. Just that if you're only telling the story from his POV for convenience only (e.g because your MC is boring), then you have a bigger problem than POV.

first person omniscient as he knows what both characters are thinking.

I don't know how he can be 1st person omniscient -- can he read minds? How can he know what other characters are thinking?

He can SPECULATE what the other person is thinking, but there is no way he can know for sure. Even if the other characters tell them what they're thinking, they may be lying. There is no way a 1st person narrator can be omniscient unless he's god or some kind of person who can read minds.

~grace~ · Aug 19, 2007

personally I think it sounds like too many degrees of separation. let's see if I have this straight...

MC tells story to his brother (we will call him Jimbo), and then Jimbo is telling the story to us?

That's what's getting me. Basically the whole story would be Jimbo saying, "according to my brother, this is what happened." Yeah? You know this because he told you? How do you know he wasn't lying? Or wrong? How do I know the story hasn't been accidentally changed in two retellings?

I'm sure it can be done. I'm just dubious. Maybe if you could give Jimbo a larger role? Or do two POVs, his and the MC's? You could probably do him in close third-person and keep his lighter tone.

Shady Lane · Aug 19, 2007

My POVS are always secondary characters (usually the MC's brother, incidentally.)

That said, I think what you're trying to do is a bit more complicated, but could still work. The 1st omnisience bit gets to me...I get what you're saying, but he should really only know what he and his brother are thinking, not everyone around them. And technically he'd only know what the brother told him he was thinking.

Have you ever read the book My Father's Dragon? It's a kid's book, and the entire thing is the kid telling the story of what his father did when he was a kid. It's been ages since I read it, but I'm pretty sure we're inside the father's head the whole time.

narselon · Aug 19, 2007

My MC had some issues but I'm in the process of resolving him. He now has a solid motivation and does a lot more than in previous drafts. At times he seems boring because he's the one normal person in a cast of crazies. While the other characters are a bit more interesting and goofy it's not their story I'm telling.

But what I meant by going through the motions is more indicative of my writing ability. My descriptions exist because I need them. I just think the narrative would get some extra spice if I did this. I'm a lot more comfortable writing with a sly sarcastic tone that wouldn't exist without going to some form of first person POV.

And I said first person omniscient because he has extra insight about the scenes he's in than a normal limited narrator would, telling the story from his brother's perspective when he is one of the character's present. It's not exactly that but as I was jotting down this post it occurred to me how it resembled something like it.

Yeah, I get the feeling of separation but I think it works with the character who is more prone to embellishing than the MC. Unfortunately I can't include the brother in the story as the other major character must remain in the dark about his existence. The brother's development needs him to be separate from the MC's influence as well. He would also be prone to dying if he attempted to help out his brother any further.

JoniBGoode · Aug 19, 2007

narselon said:
What if I told the story as a retelling by the MC's brother? What I mean by this is that he'll tell the story as a third person narrator while including his own character in descriptions and sarcastic asides. He only shows up three times with two being brief scenes and the other taking up the majority of a chapter midway through the book.

Considering everything so far I think it works out perfectly. Still, I have some doubts. How would a reader react to such a strange POV? Are there any examples where this has been done? Would the scenes with the first person POV confuse the reader?

The Great Gatsby is told from the POV of a minor character, so I don't see that as a problem. However, in Gatsby that character is present for almost all of the crucial scenes.

The problem that you have now is that your POV character is not present for vital scenes. Sounds like you would have the same problem with the new POV character. I think maybe you just need the POV to shift between different characters. If you do it well, the brother's POV could be in first person and sarcastic (although 3rd person might be less confusing for the reader.)

The "1st person omniscient"...hum. As far as I know, this would be inventing a new POV technique, which might become a bit tricky to pull off. Maybe what you really want is a disembodied narrator who is slightly sarcastic?

mjlpsu · Aug 19, 2007

It is possible to do, but it's difficult to do well. I know I've read a few novels that do this, but I can't seem to think of the titles right now... And I'm pretty sure that most of those switched POV a bit (Nowhere Man by Aleksander Hemon comes to mind). I'd have to agree with some of the other posts here, you need to have the minor character almost always present in the situations to be able to tell it well.

job · Aug 19, 2007

narselon said:
Let me clarify. I want to use the brother as the sole POV. He is retelling the story of the MC, who in turn told everything to him before retreating into anonymous seclusion for the MC's safety. Technically this means it's all first person but you wouldn't notice it since he rarely shows up except for a few scenes..

I think a scene would be more' immediate' and exciting if it were told by a character who is in the scene, experiencing it.

There doesn't seem to be much benefit in moving the reader from right on the stage to sitting beside the storyteller up in the second balcony.

When we are in the head of the guy experiencing the action, we 'hear' the voice of the character, as well as the narration of events.
We become the character.

John stubbed his toe. Oh ouchouchouch. I'm such a klutz. I hate it when this happens. Nothing helped. He put ice on it ... and had a soppy mess of a sore toe leaking on the sofa. He stuck it in a bowl of hot water. Now I look like a klutz and a dork.

versus

Then John stubbed his toe on the breakfront. He hurt himself and felt really stupid. Neither ice nor a good soak in hot water helped.

narselon said:
My previous draft had multiple POVs, used mostly for either emotional impact or when the MC was not present, but it got a negative reaction when it branched out towards the end and came back with clashing POVs with several time skips in both directions...

This sounds like you had a negative reaction to some technical problems with your POV -- not that your critters were saying 'give us only one POV'.

Maybe the answer isn't to get rid of your multiple POVs. Maybe the answer is to get control of those clashing POVs with several time skips in both directions right at the ending.

narselon said:
The current draft is strictly MC only which has helped me develop him more as a character instead of relying on the other main character to pick up the slack....

Developing the MC persona is good. All your characters should be developed.

You can reveal characters both in their POV and out of it.
Some of the most telling POV development, in fact, goes on when you see the same situation through several characters' eyes.

narselon said:
But following him around makes things too dry and somber where his less serious brother's take on events would liven things up.

If you have a dry and somber MC, I can see that you might want some other POV.
I don't know this means you must necessarily fly in the direction of having only one POV that's not the MC.

wayndom · Aug 19, 2007

I got no problem with a minor character being narrator, and can think of several advantages:

A minor character can know stuff the MC doesn't, stuff that would make the MC follow a different (and less entertaining) course if she knew.

A minor character can comment on other characters as a disinterested third party who isn't affected by the outcome of the novel.

A minor character can be sarcastic and funny in places where it would make no sense for a major character to do the same.

Sounds like fun to me...

Berry · Aug 19, 2007

Isn't Sherlock Holmes written this way, with Watson ostensibly chronicling Holmes' adventures in first person narrative. Of course, large parts of the story wind up in third person as Watson writes "And then he took out the Persian slipper, filled his pipe and began to think...", but it's still technically a first person narrative since we get "Holmes turned to me and said 'come Watson! The game's afoot!' I grabbed my coat and hat and we set off."

Does this sound like what you're trying to do, Narselon? f so it has a long tradition and can work well. Watson or your minor character is what's called a "foil", or a character whose narrative purpose is for the main character to explain things to, to comment on the action and so on. Mind you don't descend to "As you know, Bob" though!

narselon · Aug 19, 2007

Actually the Watson thing is more like the current version of my WIP except in third person centered on my MC with the other major character being the primary driving force of the story. He is completely foreign to the heretic culture most of the other characters belong to but I manage to avoid any info dump type explanation for the sake of the reader. instead the other characters try to explain and demonstrate why they became heretics to gradually win him over to their side. But a lot of people on this forum didn't like the idea of a mostly passive MC when the much more interesting character like Holmes is standing right next to him for most of the story. It came up a lot in chat that I chose the wrong guy to be my MC but that type of relationship is exactly what I was going for.

Currently the POV is not much of an issue except for the ending where I'll have to somehow present the MC as both sympathetic while at the same time someone you want to lose. Any scenes before that point aren't that essential and have been covered by him overhearing a vague conversation in code so he won't be able to process what they say. There's also one dream sequence I really want to do because it explains a sudden change of heart in a character's motivations but won't be able to because the other major character experiences it and he dies
in the finale.

Job, I actually did do a few scenes in the previous draft through the eyes of multiple characters. First I did an event where the MC has his break through moment and in the next chapter I told the stories of four lower tier characters witnessing the event on television and their reaction. I have since deleted it in favor of giving one of the characters a bigger role. Then in the finale the two main character face off and I initially followed one character up to the confrontation and then went back and followed the other character up to that point.

Wayndom, that's exactly what I was thinking. Right now I'm in the middle of adding a bunch of lighthearted scenes involving some of the more eccentric personalities mixed with some not so interesting speculative discussion between my few "know-it-all" characters so the idea is very tempting at the moment. I do have a few serious scenes I fear will be ruined by the brother's tone, but I'd suspect he'd be respectful enough when it comes to those moments. From a POV perspective these scenes will remain untouched.

job · Aug 20, 2007

narselon said:
But a lot of people on this forum didn't like the idea of a mostly passive MC .

Two thoughts on this.

1) Stop listening to what people on the Forum say. Do not rewrite your work to please them.

Writing is a lonely calling. Nobody can tell you what to do. Nobody, really, can help you with the important stuff.

2) Why have you chosen to write a story about somebody who doesn't do much?

narselon said:
Job, I actually did do a few scenes in the previous draft through the eyes of multiple characters..

I assume you mean you did one scene, or most of a scene, in the POV of Character X,
then wrote another scene in the POV of Character Y,
then the next in the POV of Character Z,
then skimmed back to the POV of Character X ...

... Rather than you wrote one scene with four POVs and hopped back and forth between the heads of Characters M, X, Y and Z .

narselon said:
First I did an event where the MC has his break through moment and in the next chapter I told the stories of four lower tier characters witnessing the event on television and their reaction...

... so you did a scene from, say, Character M's POV, and he looked at the reactions of four characters who were watching TV?

Or do you mean you had four POVs in one scene?

Four POVs in one scene would be technically difficult.

narselon said:
Then in the finale the two main character face off and I initially followed one character up to the confrontation and then went back and followed the other character up to that point. ..

I don't see this as a difficult problem, technically.
I mean, it sounds perfectly possible to write it.

An overall-plotting technique thingum occurs to me though --

One reason we stick to a single line of chronology throughout the ms (or maybe two parallel chronologies,) is that the reader finds this emotionally satisfying. She gets a sense of the progression of events. She falls into the story as it is unfolding. She lives in the timeline we've created.

When you break a time sequence, this is a bigger disturbance for the reader than just moving to a different place or into the head of a different POV character.

There is no reason you can't break your chronology. No reason you can't do this a dozen times, if you like.

But the jarring effect on the reader is a technical point to keep in mind.

Oh .... and see comment (1) above.

Raphee · Aug 22, 2007

narselon said:
Wayndom, that's exactly what I was thinking. Right now I'm in the middle of adding a bunch of lighthearted scenes involving some of the more eccentric personalities mixed with some not so interesting speculative discussion between my few "know-it-all" characters so the idea is very tempting at the moment. I do have a few serious scenes I fear will be ruined by the brother's tone, but I'd suspect he'd be respectful enough when it comes to those moments. From a POV perspective these scenes will remain untouched.

I have a similar problem to yours. I have my WIP narrated by a minor character because of the voice he brings. The MC narration is via her diary.

Now I am so unsure after having finished the first draft that I dont know if i should do this in third person or stick to the first.

Seems both of us have a similar problem.

Using a minor character for POV?

narselon

is based on a true story.

gp101

narselon

is based on a true story.

Doogs

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

~grace~

the good old days

Shady Lane

my name is hannah

narselon

is based on a true story.

JoniBGoode

mjlpsu

unidentifiable food tester

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

wayndom

Berry

narselon

is based on a true story.

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Raphee

In debt to AW