• Guest please check The Index before starting a thread.

Tate Publishing

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
With regards to GunsBigGuns, As a Tate author my books have always been in a store and or available to be placed there should the buyer choose the theme of my book. Unfortunately just because I’m in one Barnes & Noble that doesn’t mean the rest of the buyers will agree that it’s good for their area. That being said I decided to re-check the facts and I went directly to the source.
With all due respect, Leon, the Director of Marketing of Tate is hardly an unbiased "source". If they try very hard to place books in bookstores, why have they only managed to place yours in just one B&N? Did they, in fact, do it at all, or did you have them placed there? And how much did it cost you to have them published?

To quote Jim Macdonald above:
The way it works is the publisher offers you $4,000.
 

JulieB

I grow my own catnip
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
2,403
Reaction score
213
Location
Deep in the heart o' Texas
Welcome to AW, Leon.

It’s so easy to post negative things if you can be anonymous. So I say go straight to the source and ask Tate. Do research don’t rely on posts on the internet. Oh I wonder what would happen if we had to prove our statements?

Few of us are anonymous. We may use nicknames, but many of us link to our web sites and blogs. We post the covers of our books. That hardly makes us anonymous. (I use my first name and the first initial of my last name. There's a well-known editor who shares my name, and I don't want to create confusion. I don't post a picture of myself because I believe in keeping the Internet a beautiful place.;))

Having said that, I'll also mention that I was once a news director at a Christian radio station. Publishers sent us books in hopes we'd interview authors. This is how I know that there are many publishers - both Christian and mainstream, large and small - that publish inspirational books. This is like any other segment of the market: Why subsidy publish when you can go to a publisher that pays advances and royalties AND will get you on the shelves at bookstores all over the country?

Now there are reasons to self-publish or subsidy-publish. For example, if you make your money by selling books from the back of the room at speaking engagements, this may be a good option for you.

Otherwise, why pay to get published when there are publishers out there who will pay YOU? I'm not casting stones. I'm just asking.
 

Leon Mentzer

Registered
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
I used that remark of one store as an example, because many authors think that if you have a book in B & N, then they’re in all of them. This is not true. My books are in Walden’s, Lifeway Christian, Family Christian, Hastings and many other chains and stores. But not in ALL of their stores. That is a decision that the corporate buyer makes and some store don’t have the space to place all published titles.

B& N super stores carry up to 20,000 titles. They can have a larger Christian themed area then the smaller B&N in Springfield Ill. Who can stock only 10 to 12,000 titles.

Tate does all the marketing at this higher level. They set up all of the stores thru their distributors Ingram & Spring Arbor. NO I can’t even begin to try and place my books with these big companies. There isn’t enough time for me to learn how. They set up all my book signings and they provide me with the support I need to partner with them in marketing my book(s).

And as to unbiased source, before I enter a court of law I need to have both sides deposed so that I could present facts to establish a fairer case ruling. You might want to review the meaning of unbiased. The facts are that we have an alleged comment about a company. offered with no proof and then we have the company and a witness with proof. This is not biased, this is fact.

My first book I paid a fee. Right under $4,000.00. A partnership arrangement was enter in to. We call that a “meeting of the minds”.

I owned the rights to the book(s) at that time and still do. When I sold the screenplay rights for five one hour TV shows, I had to share with no one but my wife & the IRS.

When I sold 5000 books I received my fee back as per the contract. I do not have to pay anything for my second book or the 3rd etc. As long as my books sell the publisher is pleased to publish them. I have proven my book(s) sales ability. My investment and faith in Tate has paid off. Will all authors who use Tate have the same success? NO. I was lucky. The market wanted what I wrote. The public brought the book, encouraged the distributors and the publisher.

A first time author who sell 1,000 to 2,500 is considered a success by the top six companies:
• Random House, Inc.
• Penguin Putnam Inc.
• HarperCollins
• Holtzbrinck Publishing Holdings
• Time Warner
• Simon & Schuster, Inc.

Now that I’m published, my second book has been selling very well. It gets easier when you’re established. It’s the old entry level position opened…… but you need three year experience. As my sons would say DUH? It’s hard.

As to James D. Macdonald quote: I say this “Not so in the real world, not for first time authors”.

Leon Mentzer

“JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU’RE ALL ALONE”
“A collection of five wonderful stories for the whole family”
BY: LEON MENTZER
Voted “Best New Christian Writer 2005”
Named one of the
“Top 100 Inspirational Writers” in the nation by Writer’s Digest.
Author “AMEN A Simple Guide to Self-Marketing Your Christian Book"
 

Momento Mori

Tired and Disillusioned
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
3,389
Reaction score
802
Location
Here and there
Hi, Leon and welcome to AW.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
My books are in Walden’s, Lifeway Christian, Family Christian, Hastings and many other chains and stores. But not in ALL of their stores.

When you say that your book is in those stores, are they the stores in your immediate area or do they include stores that are out of state? Do Tate give you precise figures on how many stores your book has been physically placed in?

Leon. R. Mentzer:
The facts are that we have an alleged comment about a company. offered with no proof and then we have the company and a witness with proof. This is not biased, this is fact.

I'm not sure what you call it in the USA, but in the UK it's for the judge or a jury to determine the facts of a case. Each side can only put forward their arguments and evidence in support of those arguments. :)

Leon. R. Mentzer:
My first book I paid a fee. Right under $4,000.00. A partnership arrangement was enter in to. We call that a “meeting of the minds”.

Can I ask what first led you to Tate? Had you been querying other Christian publishers before hand or agents with your book proposal? If so, what sort of response had you been getting to that?

Publishers (including specialist Christian publishers, which other posters will no doubt identify) don't require "partnership agreements" because they have the commercial experience to be able to judge whether or not to take a risk on a book. The principle is and should always be that "money flows to the author". As I think I said in an earlier post here, if a publisher is requiring you to put up $4,000 then there's v. little incentive for them to do any of the things that they're required to do, e.g. promote your book, ensure that it is placed in all book stores etc. Under this "partnership" structure, it's the author who is taking all of the risk that they won't get back their $4,000 and whilst I'm not doubting that you have had a good experience, I'd be interested to know how many people have lost that sum of money and the reasons for the same. The 'resources' that Tate is proffering to put up to match your $4,000 are the precise resources that they should have in place and be offering as a matter of course, which should mean that whatever risk they're taking on is completely manageable.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
When I sold 5000 books I received my fee back as per the contract. I do not have to pay anything for my second book or the 3rd etc. As long as my books sell the publisher is pleased to publish them. I have proven my book(s) sales ability. My investment and faith in Tate has paid off.

With those 5,000 books sold, did you make any royalties on those books (and if so, are you able to share the percentage)? If not, what percentage of royalties do you make on sales over 5,000 and how are those royalties calculated? Are you able to share a ballpark figure of the amount of money that you've received on your book sales to date (I'm not asking for an exact amount, just a rough estimate). How much does your book retail for?

Leon. R. Mentzer:
A first time author who sell 1,000 to 2,500 is considered a success by the top six companies:

I expect that one of the United States based posters will be able to come back on this, but to me that doesn't sound quite right (although I expect it depends on genre). I can certainly tell you that in the UK (which is a much smaller market), 1,000 - 2,500 wouldn't be considered a success for fiction sales, although it would be viewed as healthy for certain non-fiction markets (my father writes history books and the initial print run of his publisher is 500 copies).

Leon. R. Mentzer:
As to James D. Macdonald quote: I say this “Not so in the real world, not for first time authors”.

That's simply not true. Smaller publishers might not be able to afford to give you a large advance, but the reputable ones will pay you to publish rather than expecting authors to stump up cash and this is true even in non-fiction.

MM
 

Leon Mentzer

Registered
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
Hello JulieB,

By anonymous I meant never having to prove what one has stated.

With regards to self-publish or subsidy-publish. The problem is that there is another type of publishing called partnership publishing. While it acts similar to self-publish or subsidy-publish, it is not the same. There are very fine lines between the three. The courts have recognized this.

I know authors who have self-published or used a subsidy publisher and for the most part they're pleased. An author will almost do anything to get that first book in print.......I'm guilty of this. But it paid off. The publisher has a huge risk when they take on a first time author.
For example: here are some of the large advances for authors whose books have flopped. These authors were paid and some never had to return the advance.

• Journey to Justice By Johnnie Cochran, Ballantine paid a reported $3.5 million
• Behind The oval Office by Dick Morris, Random House paid an estimated $2.5 million
• Leading with my chin by Jay Leno, Harper Collins paid a reported $4 million.

I think that you get what you pay for. It’s like getting that first car, you want wheels! Now! And you’ll do want ever……….opps I should’ve waited like Mom & Dad said save some more $ and got one with a motor in it.

Lifeway Christian stores turned my book down………But when it came out they wanted it in all 126 stores and they wanted the next project. I guess they had to see it in the flesh and see sale reports or what ever to say that.

Leon Mentzer
 

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
6,704
Reaction score
1,314
Location
Far from the madding crowd
Website
www.victoriastrauss.com
Ingram, and its subsidiary Spring Arbor, are wholesalers, not distributors. The difference between the two has been discussed extensively elsewhere in this forum.

Writer Beware considers Tate deceptive about its fees. The sole reference on Tate's website to author payments occurs in small print at the bottom of this page (my bolding): "To learn more about royalties, author investments and production services and timelines, you can request more information to be e-mailed to you." This circumspect language might easily be misinterpreted by an inexperienced author. Indeed, many of the writers who contact Writer Beware with questions about Tate are surprised to find out they have to pay.

Nowhere on Tate's website is the actual payment amount revealed.

Publishers that get money from their authors upfront have little incentive to market books to readers. I don't question Mr. Mentzer's success, but I would guess that most Tate authors never come close to reaching that magic 5,000 sales figure--at least, for sales to the public. I've heard from Tate authors who received royalty checks for less than $30 for a quarterly payment period. In some cases, they received zero.

Of course, if Tate writers have the cash to spare, they can buy their own books at 60% off retail. According to Tate's contract, author purchases count toward the 5,000 sales threshhold. Even at 60% off, an author purchase of several thousand copies would generate way more money for Tate than the amount of the author "investment," so it's not much of a sacrifice to return it.

Writer Beware has corresponded with Tate about these issues. We've asked them to reveal the number of books they've published that have sold more than 5,000 copies to the public (rather than to the books' authors). To date, they haven't responded.

- Victoria

P.S. It's sad to say it, but a first-time author with a large publishing house who sells just 2,500 copies of her debut book is going to have a hard time getting her second book published.
 
Last edited:

AC Crispin

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
353
Reaction score
122
Location
Washington DC area
Website
www.accrispin.com
My name is Ann C. Crispin. I am the Chair of Writer Beware. Tate charges authors 4000 dollars to publish their books. That makes them a vanity press. I've checked and their books aren't carried on the shelves in any of the book and mortar Christian bookstores near me. (There are three.)

Tate doesn't deny charging authors to publish their books.

Now you have it from a non-anonymous source.

-Ann C. Crispin
 

Khazarkhum

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
725
Reaction score
100
Victoria, what are the average sales for a debut novel? In general terms, of course. I'm primarily interested in romance, but SF would do.
 

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
6,704
Reaction score
1,314
Location
Far from the madding crowd
Website
www.victoriastrauss.com
Khazarkhum, I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your question. I don't even know if anyone has ever credibly broken out debut novels as a sales category. You do see prognostications about this, especially on self-publishing websites, where there's an investment in convincing authors that commercial publishers aren't all that--but they never cite sources, so I remain unconvinced.

Given that sales vary widely by genre (low sales are probably pretty much the same anywhere, but the best-selling debut from a fantasy author will probably sell significantly fewer copies than the best-selling debut from a thriller author), I suspect it's something that you'd have to look at genre by genre. You'd also have to factor in the kind of marketing involved--debuts where a publisher decides to provide a major publicity push probably do a lot better, on average, than debuts that just get the basic backing. Another consideration: some debuts aren't actually debuts, but an experienced author's first novel under a new pen name.

My hunch is that whether or not a novel is a debut matters much less to sales than factors like genre and publicity. I don't have any hard evidence to back that up, though.

- Victoria
 
Last edited:

herdon

What's up?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
78
Website
ipad.about.com
You'd also have to qualify the type of publisher or lack thereof. I'm sure the average sales for all debut novels would be pretty low considering the sheer quantity of debut self-published novels in relation to debut novels published by the big guys.
 

Momento Mori

Tired and Disillusioned
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
3,389
Reaction score
802
Location
Here and there
Leon. R. Mentzer:
The problem is that there is another type of publishing called partnership publishing. While it acts similar to self-publish or subsidy-publish, it is not the same. There are very fine lines between the three. The courts have recognized this.

Can you give a citation for which case recognised "partnership publishing" (a term that I've never come across before but which one of the other posters here might be able to explain for me).

Leon. R. Mentzer:
An author will almost do anything to get that first book in print.......I'm guilty of this. But it paid off.

I agree that authors will do anything to get their first book in print and unfortunately there are a lot of shysters out there who are willing to take advantage of that desperation.

You keep saying that Tate Publishing paid off for you, but I notice that you haven't answered any of the questions I raised in my previous post, which I've set out again below:

With those 5,000 books sold, did you make any royalties on those books (and if so, are you able to share the percentage)? If not, what percentage of royalties do you make on sales over 5,000 and how are those royalties calculated? Are you able to share a ballpark figure of the amount of money that you've received on your book sales to date (I'm not asking for an exact amount, just a rough estimate). How much does your book retail for?

Leon. R. Mentzer:
The publisher has a huge risk when they take on a first time author.

Yes they do, and the way that publishers manage that risk is by making sure they can get their product into bricks and mortar stores, which is where most people buy books.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
For example: here are some of the large advances for authors whose books have flopped. These authors were paid and some never had to return the advance.

• Journey to Justice By Johnnie Cochran, Ballantine paid a reported $3.5 million
• Behind The oval Office by Dick Morris, Random House paid an estimated $2.5 million
• Leading with my chin by Jay Leno, Harper Collins paid a reported $4 million.

I'm not sure what you think that these examples prove.

Certainly two out of those three people were all celebrities (apologies, but as a Brit I have no idea who Dick Morris is!). The unpalatable truth is that celebrities tend to get big advances for their memoirs (over here, the wife of the former Prime Minister, Cherie Blair reportedly got a £500,000 advance for her autobiography).

I can assure you that whilst other non-fiction authors won't get million dollar advances, they do nevertheless get advances and those advances are calculated on what kind of sales the publisher thinks they can achieve with the book in question. The problem with Tate Publishing (and it's one that I and others here keep banging on about) is that by making the author stump up cash, they are not assuming any risk. I would assume that the £4,000 represents their printing costs on an initial run (or at least, a significant proportion of those costs), so where is the incentive for them to try and achieve nationwide sales? Again, I notice that you have not answered my questions about this, which I have posted again below:

When you say that your book is in those stores, are they the stores in your immediate area or do they include stores that are out of state? Do Tate give you precise figures on how many stores your book has been physically placed in?

Leon. R. Mentzer:
Lifeway Christian stores turned my book down………But when it came out they wanted it in all 126 stores and they wanted the next project.

I'm not sure I understand what you think this shows. Did you ask Lifeway Christian stores to publish your book (because I checked out their website and don't see a printing arm listed).

In terms of stocking your book, surely Tate Publishing should have already negotiated their holding your book, given that you're writing about Christian subject matter? How come Lifeway Christian first turned down stocking your book and what changed their mind? How many books had you sold before they agreed to stock it and how had Tate Publishing achieved those sales?

MM
 

Leon Mentzer

Registered
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
Hello Momento Mori,
Your first question: yes they’re in stores all over the United States and over seas.
I never asked them for a list of every store my book is in because that is information that is not relevant to the bottom line. That is how many books get sold. When I travel for my speaking engagements I also have book signing events in those towns also.

The law is basically the same here. But we demand absolute proof, not just alleged comments or non- binding non- legal opinions. For example: in our courts stating that a publishing firm is a vanity or subsidy, one has to explain away other forms such as “partnership publishing“ and why it is not valid. Just because you have a bill and webbed feet doesn’t make you a duck. What about the platypuses.

My wife told me about Tate. Who is going to argue with that? Not me. LOL
I had an agent Janet Kay & Assoc. but she disappeared and as most of you know got in to trouble. Lifeway Christian Resources (stores) turned me down after the asked for my manuscript (they have their own publishing house) but one month after my book was published they order 1,200 copies and offered me a new contract. I declined.

As to publishers that can ensure that your book is going to be in ALL the stores. No way. Just an example: K Rowling, is not in all the stores. Just about all of them, but never the less not all.

When my firm published advertisements of any type to market or inform our clients / public of something, the costs were huge. Much more then $4,000.00. Try publishing a book and see what the cost is.

Tate publishing does give advances but those authors have star appeal, they have name recognition. For example: Shane Hamman, two time Olympian and currently the strongest man in the world. He rec’d a $20,000 advance. He has a lot more to offer success then my book.

Yes I make royalties. The break down was this: 15% if sold in a store, 40% if purchase from Tate’s web store and 60% if purchase from my web-site.
As to amount I make. That’s between me, the wife and the IRS. The sign on the back of my new 40’ diesel pusher motor home will say “pd4by books”. The fact is that even my royalties can’t pay for my life style, a wife, two homes, two sons in collage and two Bassett hounds. Not yet. Soon maybe. LOL

The first book is $16.95, the 2nd is $12.99. As for incentives for the publisher, there isn’t much because there‘re over 10 to 20,000 titles every month to pick from and then we come along with our first book. There’re lots of great books that don’t get to first base.

In this day and age of selling books one has to not over stock. The book store get to send your book back for credit and this credit is charged back to an author. So 500 books is more the norm if you are a small publishing company. Supply and demand.

The bottom line is this you’re not forced to pay for anything to anyone.
Even if you signed a contract.
It’s not against the law to charge fees.
But it’s against the law to state that certain practices are a scam with out providing proof. The laws are changing and one has to start being very careful in stating one opinion as if it were law. As for the court’s opinion on deciding a case involving a differents of opinions, the courts tend to look at over kill as unnecessary. So I question the professionalism of anyone who tends to overstate their opinion to the point of obsession.
One cannot enter in to a contract with Tate without reading the fine print. If an author signs it and then complaints about it there is no relief for stupidity.

I believe that both Ann & Victoria were asked if they’d like to visit the Tate Publishing Corporate offices and they never responded. As to them asking about company sales figures, that will never happen with any publisher unless there’s a court order. Those kind of remarks are just red herrings.

What my book(s) do in sales has NOTHING to do with other authors books and their success or failures. Your book must stand on its own no matter who publishes it.

As to extra cash buy and sell your own books, red herring remark, someone has to pay the band. There is no free lunches there ‘re no free books. If you want to sell them yourself you have to pay for them.

I‘ve talked to Victoria, she wanted to talk to me about my experience with Tate, she insisted on the questions and answers to be by e-mail not by phone. I responded to her request. But I also asked her for the proof that she allegedly had on Tate and other companies that I was looking at. She never responded. I guess my experience wasn’t what she was looking for.

What she does is great for authors, but sometimes Victoria steps over the line with her opinions and her non- responsiveness to requests from those who have a different opinion.

As for Ann, ok three stores out of how many others? What’s your point here? There’re thousands of stores. Not all of them carry Tate titles. But many do and this is a fact that can be proven. How many stores carry your book(s)? There are 12 near me and there is no Ann in them. That doesn’t mean that I can’t get them does it?

Leon Mentzer
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
The law is basically the same here. But we demand absolute proof, not just alleged comments or non- binding non- legal opinions. For example: in our courts stating that a publishing firm is a vanity or subsidy, one has to explain away other forms such as “partnership publishing“ and why it is not valid. Just because you have a bill and webbed feet doesn’t make you a duck. What about the platypuses.

...

But it’s against the law to state that certain practices are a scam with out providing proof. The laws are changing and one has to start being very careful in stating one opinion as if it were law.
First of all, AW is not a court of law. It is a place where writers come to share ideas and opinions.

Secondly, "vanity press" is a standard industry term that does not need definition to explicitly exclude "partnership publishing", which is not. Vanity press means that the author has paid to have the book published. You paid to have the book published, so by definition, Tate is a vanity press, regardless of the nuance you want to put on it.

Thirdly, NO ONE on this thread has called Tate a "scam". In fact, Victoria explicitly said so. If you're going to cast aspersions, you better do your research. What HAS been pointed out are the number of things Tate has in common with other vanity or "subsidy" publishers. People are free to make up their own minds.
 

JulieB

I grow my own catnip
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
2,403
Reaction score
213
Location
Deep in the heart o' Texas
Ann writes under A. C. Crispin. Her books are in all Borders stores in my area. Yours are available for order, as are those of a Tate author who lives in my city. The big Christian chain in my area is Family Christian Stores, and I can't find your books on their site. In fact, I can't find any Tate books on their site. The other big chain around here is Lifeway. I do see your books on their site, but I might check the shelves of the new one that opened up in my neighborhood, just to see if they happen to be there.

Would you be willing to state whether or not you made your investment back, or expect to make it back? Oops. I see you noted that already. Apologies.

But to get back to my original point:
Otherwise, why pay to get published when there are publishers out there who will pay YOU? I'm not casting stones. I'm just asking.

The books you mentioned may have bombed, but the point is that the authors didn't have to pay a dime to get them in print. And don't pull the "famous" card. New authors get signed all the time by major publishers. A first-time author probably won't get much of an advance, but that's a risk that the publisher is willing to take. In return, that first-time authors books get stocked on bookstore shelves all over the country. The author doesn't have to do a thing to make that happen.

I'm not saying that Tate is a scam, and I suspect you went into the deal with your eyes open, which is perfectly fine. But why go this route without having at least tried to sub your manuscript to the big houses? I'm curious.
 
Last edited:

Momento Mori

Tired and Disillusioned
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
3,389
Reaction score
802
Location
Here and there
Leon - many thanks for your response, I just wanted to pick up on a few things:

Leon. R. Mentzer:
yes they’re in stores all over the United States and over seas.

Is it Tate who have published them overseas? Does Tate have the right to publish your books in all territories or just the USA? Do you know which countries your books are being sold in? It's just that this surprises me a little. Those people I know who have published overseas have done so because foreign publishers have picked up territory rights. When you say that they're sold overseas, do you mean that they are being physically printed and stocked in other countries, or are they available to order by stores based in other countries?

Leon. R. Mentzer:
I never asked them for a list of every store my book is in because that is information that is not relevant to the bottom line.

Well, with all due respect the number of stores carrying your book is highly pertinent to your bottom line. The majority of people buy books from bookstores, so the more bookstores that carry your book, the higher your potential is for making sales. I wouldn't necessarily want to know the exact number, but I'd certainly want a ballpark idea of the stores where the book's been physically placed (even allowing for the fact that books are usually sold on a returns basis).

Leon. R. Mentzer:
But we demand absolute proof, not just alleged comments or non- binding non- legal opinions. For example: in our courts stating that a publishing firm is a vanity or subsidy, one has to explain away other forms such as “partnership publishing“ and why it is not valid. Just because you have a bill and webbed feet doesn’t make you a duck. What about the platypuses.

Every court case involves two sets of facts and assertions - there may be common ground between the parties, but the whole idea of a legal dispute is that there's something that the parties don't agree on. The judge and/or jury take a look at the evidence being offered by the parties and decide which is the most convincing.

However, jurisprudential discussions aside, you originally stated that there had been a court case that specifically recognised the concept of partnership publishing as being different to subsidy or self-publishing. Are you able to give a citation for that particular case? In addition, is this a case that Tate was involved in (i.e. has there been a case where Tate has specifically been held not to be a vanity publisher?)

Leon. R. Mentzer:
I had an agent Janet Kay & Assoc. but she disappeared and as most of you know got in to trouble.

Unfortunately, from the discussion here http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=976 Janet Kay was never a legitimate agent, given that she charged fees and was subject to a criminal investigation. I'm sorry you got caught up with her.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
As to publishers that can ensure that your book is going to be in ALL the stores.

I don't think I ever said that a publisher ensures that your book is in all stores. I said only that publishers ensure your book can get into bricks and mortar stores.

J.K. Rowling isn't really a relevant example because her success is pretty much lightning in a bottle.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
When my firm published advertisements of any type to market or inform our clients / public of something, the costs were huge. Much more then $4,000.00. Try publishing a book and see what the cost is.

Again, I'm not sure that this works as a comparison.

Depending on what your initial print run was (and I'm assuming that there was an initial print-run, but please correct me if I'm wrong), I would suspect that $4,000 would go a long way to meeting the costs of materials and labour. Perhaps one of the other posters can jump in here with their experience. In any event, I think one of the earlier posters in this discussion worked out that from Tate Publishing's claims that they're taking on up to 70 authors per year - 70 authors, each paying $4,000 comes to $280,000, which is a lot of stake money, particularly if Tate isn't committing to large initial print runs.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
Yes I make royalties. The break down was this: 15% if sold in a store, 40% if purchase from Tate’s web store and 60% if purchase from my web-site.

With apologies for repeating the question, but did you make royalties on the first 5,000 book sales (which I understand is what triggered the return of your $4,000)? I'm not able to comment on the royalty figures of 40% and 60%, although they do seem quite high to me - the 15% is equivalent to what the UK non-fiction writers I know get from sales.

Are you able to say how those royalties are calculated, i.e. are they calculated on the cover price of the book or the price paid after discounts?

Leon. R. Mentzer:
As to amount I make. That’s between me, the wife and the IRS.

Okay, are you able to tell us how many copies of each of your books have been sold to the date of your last royalty statement (again, a ball park figure, rather than an exact amount). In addition, are you able to tell us what the breakdown of those sales are - i.e. how many are through stores, how many through Tate's website and how many through your website?

Leon. R. Mentzer:
As for incentives for the publisher, there isn’t much because there‘re over 10 to 20,000 titles every month to pick from and then we come along with our first book. There’re lots of great books that don’t get to first base.

I'm not sure that I understand this comment. Publishers are incentivised to pick and sell books that they think they can make a profit on. Almost every publisher has a slush pile, but a publisher should only be picking up the books they think are worthwhile and if they've picked up a book, then they go through the usual processes associated with getting it into bricks and mortar stores and promoting it.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
It’s not against the law to charge fees.

You're right. Unfortunately it's not illegal to charge fees where those have been disclosed in advance, although it can potentially be illegal to make false promises or representations with the intention of inducing someone into suffering a financial loss. However, I don't see how it can ever be to the advantage of an author to pay the fees being asked for, particularly an amount as significant as $4,000.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
But it’s against the law to state that certain practices are a scam with out providing proof. The laws are changing and one has to start being very careful in stating one opinion as if it were law. As for the court’s opinion on deciding a case involving a differents of opinions, the courts tend to look at over kill as unnecessary. So I question the professionalism of anyone who tends to overstate their opinion to the point of obsession.

I'm not sure that anyone has said that Tate Publishing is a scam - in fact, I think that Victoria deliberately said that it wasn't a scam.

What is being said is that Tate Publishing is little better than a vanity press, one that charges a lot of money for the privilege of being published. What is also being pointed out is that authors could do a lot better by going to other publishers with their work, preferably to those that have distribution into physical bookstores and which pay authors an advance.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
One cannot enter in to a contract with Tate without reading the fine print. If an author signs it and then complaints about it there is no relief for stupidity.

With all due respect, if Tate is so proud of its "partnership model" then the fee language shouldn't be in the fine print and it should be something that is specifically drawn to the attention of an author so that everyone signing with them knows exactly what the consequences of the deal are likely to be and Tate should be advising authors who are uncertain about what the contract says to seek independent advice.

The sad truth is that there are people who sign up to things without understanding how they work and I don't think that authors should be censured for their naivety. Are you saying that you deserve to be pilloried as an idiot for having signed with Janet Kay because you didn't do your research on her?

Leon. R. Mentzer:
I believe that both Ann & Victoria were asked if they’d like to visit the Tate Publishing Corporate offices and they never responded. As to them asking about company sales figures, that will never happen with any publisher unless there’s a court order. Those kind of remarks are just red herrings.

Huh? Sales figures on books are extremely pertinent to a publisher and most publishers are only too happy to give an indication of how books are doing. Certainly over here, an author's sales figures are available via a number of databases and are used by publishers to determine whether they'll take the risk of another book with a particular author. If you open the Sunday Times, you'll see that book sales figures are displayed next to the listings.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
If you want to sell them yourself you have to pay for them.

Are you saying that you are buying copies of your book in order to sell them?

MM
 
Last edited:

Bubastes

bananaed
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
7,394
Reaction score
2,250
Website
www.gracewen.com
Can you give a citation for which case recognised "partnership publishing" (a term that I've never come across before but which one of the other posters here might be able to explain for me).

I did a quick Lexis/Nexis search for any federal or state court decision containing the term "partnership publishing" or "partnership publisher." I did not find any cases.
 

herdon

What's up?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,129
Reaction score
78
Website
ipad.about.com
Okay, are you able to tell us how many copies of each of your books have been sold to the date of your last royalty statement (again, a ball park figure, rather than an exact amount). In addition, are you able to tell us what the breakdown of those sales are - i.e. how many are through stores, how many through Tate's website and how many through your website?


Discounting sales directly from the publisher's website (or any other sales that wouldn't go through Ingrams), he's sold 90 copies of his latest book which was released in the last month or two, and he hasn't sold any copies of his 2005 book in the last two years (noting that it was released early 2005).
 

Momento Mori

Tired and Disillusioned
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
3,389
Reaction score
802
Location
Here and there
MeowGirl:
I did a quick Lexis/Nexis search for any federal or state court decision containing the term "partnership publishing" or "partnership publisher." I did not find any cases.

Cheers for that. I'm not surprised by the [lack of] result.

Havlen:
Discounting sales directly from the publisher's website (or any other sales that wouldn't go through Ingrams), he's sold 90 copies of his latest book which was released in the last month or two, and he hasn't sold any copies of his 2005 book in the last two years (noting that it was released early 2005).

See, now I'm a little confused because Leon said:

When I sold 5000 books I received my fee back as per the contract.

Either he sold 4,900 books in stores during the early part of 2005 (which is possible), or those 4,900 sales came via the Tate website or his own website (which is again possible, but without a platform to make people go to those sites, I'd be interested to know how it was done). I'm definitely having problems understanding how he made the sales to make back the fee, let alone earn royalties on top of that without a considerable store presence.

I'm not knocking the fact that 90 sales have been achieved, but in publishing terms that isn't a significant volume. In fact, isn't it estimated that most PA authors end up making around 100 sales?

I did go back and look at the email that Leon shared from Mike Mingle, Tate's Marketing Director:

Mike Mingle (BOLDING MINE):
Tate Publishing works hard every day to make sure our authors’ books appear on shelves at brick and mortar stores. Our marketing staff works directly with buyers and managers from all major bookstore chains, including Barnes and Noble, Borders, Family Christian, Hastings, and Mardel. We take orders every day from these and other stores, and these chains all host our authors for book signings and events across the country. I would invite you to view the online events calendar on our website to see the stores that host our authors and that we regularly supply with books.

Nowhere in the email does Mike actually say: "Yes, your books are on bookshelves and Tate Publishing has put them there". Basically "works hard every day to make sure our authors’ books appear on shelves at brick and mortar stores" doesn't mean anything - it turns on the results and if the result is that the books aren't on the shelves, then it doesn't matter how hard you've worked at it.

We take orders every day from these and other stores, and these chains all host our authors for book signings and events across the country.

I would suggest that Tate Publishing books are in fact only available to order in the vast majority of stores, rather than physically present in stores for purchase. Where books are physically placed, I would not be surprised if the books are only physically present in specialist stores or stores near the author's home.

I wonder if Tate's actually operating as a POD, only publishing to fulfil actual orders rather than doing print runs for shipping but I'm dipping into speculation there.

MM
 
Last edited:

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
6,704
Reaction score
1,314
Location
Far from the madding crowd
Website
www.victoriastrauss.com
I believe that both Ann & Victoria were asked if they’d like to visit the Tate Publishing Corporate offices and they never responded.
Both Ann and I have corresponded a number of times with people from Tate. We were indeed invited to visit their offices, and if Tate were in driving distance for either of us, we might have accepted the invitation (if our lawyer approved). But Ann lives in Maryland and I live in Massachusetts, and a trip to Oklahoma on our dime would set us back a fair amount. SFWA covers basic expenses for Writer Beware, such as paying for our domain name, but I doubt it would agree to reimburse us for airfare and hotel rooms to go visit a vanity publisher.
I‘ve talked to Victoria, she wanted to talk to me about my experience with Tate, she insisted on the questions and answers to be by e-mail not by phone. I responded to her request. But I also asked her for the proof that she allegedly had on Tate and other companies that I was looking at. She never responded. I guess my experience wasn’t what she was looking for.
I keep my Writer Beware contacts in writing where at all possible. This is what's advised by Writer Beware's attorney, and given the frequency with which Ann and I are threatened with legal action (whether those threats are veiled, as in Mr. Mentzer's posts, or overt), it just make sense to have a paper trail. Keeping my contact with Mr. Mentzer in email also allowed me to cc Ryan Tate to keep him in the loop--as I explained in my response.

"I asked her to provide proof and she didn't respond" is (to use Mr. Mentzer's phrase) a red herring. People who contact Writer Beware do so in the assurance of confidentiality. We don't share their names or contact information, and we don't provide copies of the documentation they send us except to law enforcement officials. In response to requests for information, we DO clearly describe the information and documentation we have on hand. Any statements we make about a publisher, literary agent, or anyone else is either directly supported by documentation in our possession, or identified as opinion.

Also, as to proof...Mr. Mentzer himself has confirmed Tate's $4,000 fee, and a search of Tate's website will confirm the fact that the amount isn't disclosed anywhere on the site, and the fee is mentioned--in evasive language--only on one page of the site.

No doubt there are still a few genuine subsidy publishers, which are honest in their claim of sharing costs and revenue with their authors. But "partnership publishing" is much more likely to be a euphemism for vanity publishing. I can't say for sure whether or not there are court cases recognizing differences between "partnership publishing" and any other kind, but I have to say I doubt it.

- Victoria
 

III

rockin the suburbs
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 21, 2006
Messages
4,672
Reaction score
3,566
Location
Spurs Country
Website
www.jayyoungweb.com
Either he sold 4,900 books in stores during the early part of 2005 (which is possible), or those 4,900 sales came via the Tate website or his own website (which is again possible, but without a platform to make people go to those sites, I'd be interested to know how it was done). I'm definitely having problems understanding how he made the sales to make back the fee, let alone earn royalties on top of that without a considerable store presence.

I wonder if author purchases are included in the 5,000 total.