Leon - many thanks for your response, I just wanted to pick up on a few things:
Leon. R. Mentzer:
yes they’re in stores all over the United States and over seas.
Is it Tate who have published them overseas? Does Tate have the right to publish your books in all territories or just the USA? Do you know which countries your books are being sold in? It's just that this surprises me a little. Those people I know who have published overseas have done so because foreign publishers have picked up territory rights. When you say that they're sold overseas, do you mean that they are being
physically printed and stocked in other countries, or are they available to
order by stores based in other countries?
Leon. R. Mentzer:
I never asked them for a list of every store my book is in because that is information that is not relevant to the bottom line.
Well, with all due respect the number of stores carrying your book is highly pertinent to your bottom line. The majority of people buy books from bookstores, so the more bookstores that carry your book, the higher your potential is for making sales. I wouldn't necessarily want to know the exact number, but I'd certainly want a ballpark idea of the stores where the book's been physically placed (even allowing for the fact that books are usually sold on a returns basis).
Leon. R. Mentzer:
But we demand absolute proof, not just alleged comments or non- binding non- legal opinions. For example: in our courts stating that a publishing firm is a vanity or subsidy, one has to explain away other forms such as “partnership publishing“ and why it is not valid. Just because you have a bill and webbed feet doesn’t make you a duck. What about the platypuses.
Every court case involves two sets of facts and assertions - there may be common ground between the parties, but the whole idea of a legal dispute is that there's something that the parties don't agree on. The judge and/or jury take a look at the evidence being offered by the parties and decide which is the most convincing.
However, jurisprudential discussions aside, you originally stated that there had been a court case that specifically recognised the concept of partnership publishing as being different to subsidy or self-publishing. Are you able to give a citation for that particular case? In addition, is this a case that Tate was involved in (i.e. has there been a case where Tate has specifically been held not to be a vanity publisher?)
Leon. R. Mentzer:
I had an agent Janet Kay & Assoc. but she disappeared and as most of you know got in to trouble.
Unfortunately, from the discussion here
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=976 Janet Kay was never a legitimate agent, given that she charged fees and was subject to a criminal investigation. I'm sorry you got caught up with her.
Leon. R. Mentzer:
As to publishers that can ensure that your book is going to be in ALL the stores.
I don't think I ever said that a publisher ensures that your book is in all stores. I said only that publishers ensure your book can get into bricks and mortar stores.
J.K. Rowling isn't really a relevant example because her success is pretty much lightning in a bottle.
Leon. R. Mentzer:
When my firm published advertisements of any type to market or inform our clients / public of something, the costs were huge. Much more then $4,000.00. Try publishing a book and see what the cost is.
Again, I'm not sure that this works as a comparison.
Depending on what your initial print run was (and I'm assuming that there was an initial print-run, but please correct me if I'm wrong), I would suspect that $4,000 would go a long way to meeting the costs of materials and labour. Perhaps one of the other posters can jump in here with their experience. In any event, I think one of the earlier posters in this discussion worked out that from Tate Publishing's claims that they're taking on up to 70 authors per year - 70 authors, each paying $4,000 comes to $280,000, which is a lot of stake money, particularly if Tate isn't committing to large initial print runs.
Leon. R. Mentzer:
Yes I make royalties. The break down was this: 15% if sold in a store, 40% if purchase from Tate’s web store and 60% if purchase from my web-site.
With apologies for repeating the question, but did you make royalties on the first 5,000 book sales (which I understand is what triggered the return of your $4,000)? I'm not able to comment on the royalty figures of 40% and 60%, although they do seem quite high to me - the 15% is equivalent to what the UK non-fiction writers I know get from sales.
Are you able to say how those royalties are calculated, i.e. are they calculated on the cover price of the book or the price paid after discounts?
Leon. R. Mentzer:
As to amount I make. That’s between me, the wife and the IRS.
Okay, are you able to tell us how many copies of each of your books have been sold to the date of your last royalty statement (again, a ball park figure, rather than an exact amount). In addition, are you able to tell us what the breakdown of those sales are - i.e. how many are through stores, how many through Tate's website and how many through your website?
Leon. R. Mentzer:
As for incentives for the publisher, there isn’t much because there‘re over 10 to 20,000 titles every month to pick from and then we come along with our first book. There’re lots of great books that don’t get to first base.
I'm not sure that I understand this comment. Publishers are incentivised to pick and sell books that they think they can make a profit on. Almost every publisher has a slush pile, but a publisher should only be picking up the books they think are worthwhile and if they've picked up a book, then they go through the usual processes associated with getting it into bricks and mortar stores and promoting it.
Leon. R. Mentzer:
It’s not against the law to charge fees.
You're right. Unfortunately it's not illegal to charge fees where those have been disclosed in advance, although it can potentially be illegal to make false promises or representations with the intention of inducing someone into suffering a financial loss. However, I don't see how it can ever be to the advantage of an author to pay the fees being asked for, particularly an amount as significant as $4,000.
Leon. R. Mentzer:
But it’s against the law to state that certain practices are a scam with out providing proof. The laws are changing and one has to start being very careful in stating one opinion as if it were law. As for the court’s opinion on deciding a case involving a differents of opinions, the courts tend to look at over kill as unnecessary. So I question the professionalism of anyone who tends to overstate their opinion to the point of obsession.
I'm not sure that anyone has said that Tate Publishing is a scam - in fact, I think that
Victoria deliberately said that it wasn't a scam.
What is being said is that Tate Publishing is little better than a vanity press, one that charges a lot of money for the privilege of being published. What is also being pointed out is that authors could do a lot better by going to other publishers with their work, preferably to those that have distribution into physical bookstores and which pay authors an advance.
Leon. R. Mentzer:
One cannot enter in to a contract with Tate without reading the fine print. If an author signs it and then complaints about it there is no relief for stupidity.
With all due respect, if Tate is so proud of its "partnership model" then the fee language shouldn't be in the fine print and it should be something that is specifically drawn to the attention of an author so that everyone signing with them knows exactly what the consequences of the deal are likely to be and Tate should be advising authors who are uncertain about what the contract says to seek independent advice.
The sad truth is that there are people who sign up to things without understanding how they work and I don't think that authors should be censured for their naivety. Are you saying that you deserve to be pilloried as an idiot for having signed with Janet Kay because you didn't do your research on her?
Leon. R. Mentzer:
I believe that both Ann & Victoria were asked if they’d like to visit the Tate Publishing Corporate offices and they never responded. As to them asking about company sales figures, that will never happen with any publisher unless there’s a court order. Those kind of remarks are just red herrings.
Huh? Sales figures on books are extremely pertinent to a publisher and most publishers are only too happy to give an indication of how books are doing. Certainly over here, an author's sales figures are available via a number of databases and are used by publishers to determine whether they'll take the risk of another book with a particular author. If you open the Sunday Times, you'll see that book sales figures are displayed next to the listings.
Leon. R. Mentzer:
If you want to sell them yourself you have to pay for them.
Are you saying that you are buying copies of your book in order to sell them?
MM