Profanity

arodriguez · Nov 22, 2007

J. R. Tomlin said:
Edit: Ah, well on reading your list of who you don't like, maybe I should take back that you don't like fantasy and simply assume you don't like BAD fantasy. (but that may get me lynched.)

Ah yes. these really bad fantasy writers yes. they are really bad. yes. oh wait. oh YEAh, thats right. i forgot. people read those books and LIKED them.
Oh yeah, also they are published. Hmm, oh, they all have bestsellers. geez. they must be really bad. i wish I was that fucking bad.

badducky · Nov 22, 2007

Marguerite, I think you are incorrect when you say low language cannot be beautiful. The examples are so numerous as to be absurd on this point.

I challenge you to enhance your artistry by expanding your command of all the goddamn language out there.

J. R. Tomlin · Nov 22, 2007

arodriguez said:
Ah yes. these really bad fantasy writers yes. they are really bad. yes. oh wait. oh YEAh, thats right. i forgot. people read those books and LIKED them.
Oh yeah, also they are published. Hmm, oh, they all have bestsellers. geez. they must be really bad. i wish I was that fucking bad.

arodriguez, you really do amuse me. I won't go into why having a bestseller is no statement of quality one way or the other. Either you already know or else you wouldn't get it. :tongue

arodriguez · Nov 22, 2007

No, apparently YOU don't get it. I'm going to make this clear for you so that there can be no mistake.

Temporary edit subject to SF/F forum mods' approval.
Quoted text from J. R. Tomlin's WIP removed by request.

That's your opening line to a "revised" short story.

"The palace still shook occasionally as the earth rumbled in memory, groaned as if it could deny what happened. Bars of sunlight cast through rents in the walls made motes of dust glitter where they yet hung in the air."

thats Robert Jordan...

this is the second time that you have criticized authors of your own so called genre in these forums. The other is Orson Scott Card. Are you mad? Do you not see your own envy? Your filthy ENVIOUS tone unnerves me. That a writer, a self proclaimed aspiring artist of the trade, would insult another by referring to their stories as "bad" appalls me. There are books that i like more than others, there are authors i feel write better stories than others, but i know the difficulty involved in creating a piece of art. You fall in love with it, it becomes part of your soul. You pour yourself into it and labor upon it.

What bestselling means is that people appreciate it. They appreciate a good story, a good read. They like the characters. They like it all enough that they tell their family and friends about it. People don't idly buy these books at random because of the alignment of the moons. Its good shit. if you dont appreciate these people's time and effort then that's fine. But don't go around spewing your jealous acidic comments insulting the reader who so appreciate these works.

We have the GREAT fortune to have published writers on this forum give us advice. Can you belive it? Our competition wants to help us! Do you fathom that? Do you want to know why? they know it's not easy.
Keep on insulting writers. One of these days there will be an anonymous writer on this forum, maybe a great one, he will see your comments, see your stories, and say pfft, is she kidding me? Wait till i tell my agent..............

J. R. Tomlin · Nov 22, 2007

arodriguez said:
this is the second time that you have criticized authors of your own so called genre in these forums.

No, I have NEVER criticized another author on this forum. However, I have criticised the work of other authors on this and other forums. I have done it many more times than twice. When you're published, that's what happens.

There are people who love Jordan's work. I'm not going to criticise them for doing so. I do not share their opinion. It is my right to not share their opinion and to say as much. If, as you just did, they get excited and spit hatred all over the computer monitor over it, that's their problem or in this case your problem.

My only other comment is that I did not give you permission to quote what I posted in the (passworded) SYW in the public portion of AW.

Edit: Me commenting on agreeing with Oscuridad's list of authors who give indigestion:

J. R. Tomlin said:
Edit: Ah, well on reading your list of who you don't like, maybe I should take back that you don't like fantasy and simply assume you don't like BAD fantasy. (but that may get me lynched.)

Now did I tell the truth or what? :roll:

Storm Dream · Nov 22, 2007

arodriguez said:
this is the second time that you have criticized authors of your own so called genre in these forums. The other is Orson Scott Card. Are you mad? Do you not see your own envy? Your filthy ENVIOUS tone unnerves me. That a writer, a self proclaimed aspiring artist of the trade, would insult another by referring to their stories as "bad" appalls me. There are books that i like more than others, there are authors i feel write better stories than others, but i know the difficulty involved in creating a piece of art. You fall in love with it, it becomes part of your soul. You pour yourself into it and labor upon it.

What bestselling means is that people appreciate it. They appreciate a good story, a good read. They like the characters. They like it all enough that they tell their family and friends about it. People don't idly buy these books at random because of the alignment of the moons. Its good shit. if you dont appreciate these people's time and effort then that's fine. But don't go around spewing your jealous acidic comments insulting the reader who so appreciate these works.

We have the GREAT fortune to have published writers on this forum give us advice. Can you belive it? Our competition wants to help us! Do you fathom that? Do you want to know why? they know it's not easy.
Keep on insulting writers. One of these days there will be an anonymous writer on this forum, maybe a great one, he will see your comments, see your stories, and say pfft, is she kidding me? Wait till i tell my agent..............

Wait...she's critical, so therefore she's envious?

So anytime I don't like a story by a particular bestselling author -- say, I don't know, Tolkien, or Card, or anyone else, it can't just be that I don't like how they write, or the story bugs me -- I have to be envious?

Critique is not always an insult. Once you're out there in the public eye with all your published works, there's going to be people who don't like your work. I seriously doubt anyone's going to be calling their agent saying "OMG, this person didn't like My Magnum Opus, don't sign them."

On the original topic: I really like it when an author comes up with their own curse words based on their worldbuilding -- not that I don't like a nice "fuck 'em" now and then.

MargueriteMing · Nov 23, 2007

badducky said:
Marguerite, I think you are incorrect when you say low language cannot be beautiful. The examples are so numerous as to be absurd on this point.

I challenge you to enhance your artistry by expanding your command of all the goddamn language out there.

I think my command of the goddamn language is pretty fucking good. I just don't think Tolkien's work would be improved if Gimli starts calling orcs pig fuckers, or if he had told Haldor to go take it up the ass in common instead of dwarvish. It works better in dwarvish, because they have all sorts of words for dirt and tunneling. It comes out rather well in spanish, too: Vete a tomar por culo.

arodriguez · Nov 23, 2007

J. R. Tomlin said:
My only other comment is that I did not give you permission to quote what I posted in the (passworded) SYW in the public portion of AW.

For that i apologize. It was not meant in hatred. As i said i was merely trying to prove a point to you (which seems like a friutless effort)

Yeah you can have your opinion, but why does it always have to be putting author's WORKS down. It sounds to me like you are putting the stories down..NOT the works
what is so bad about the stories that they must be flippantly spoken about?

And to be critical is not to be envious. But sometimes one follows another. I have read books that i have said "i can do better than that" ive said "My story is cooler than that" even "Wow people like this stuff?" but i wouldn't call it "bad" Bad, to me, is unintelligible babbling, use of jargon, absence of plot, unrealistic charcters, pages and pages of dialogue that doesn't move the story forward, endless amounts of info dump.-you get the picture.

ChaosTitan · Nov 23, 2007

The topic of this thread is the issue of profanity in high fantasy works. arodriguez has apologized for quoting JR's work, and the issue has been dealt with, so let's all move onward. Further off-topic arguments need to be addressed via PM.

Unique · Nov 23, 2007

bwahahaha....
oops.
i like commas.

maestrowork · Nov 23, 2007

, , , chameleon, it comes and goes... it comes and goes....oh oh

MargueriteMing · Nov 23, 2007

Hmm, what's the most number of people to have gotten banned on a single thread? Do threads commonly die when someone gets punted?

rugcat · Nov 23, 2007

Hey Mac, have you ever thought of an official intermediate step, a suspension for a week, say, instead of a ban? Like sports leagues do? (Sorry for the sports comparison) I know people get warnings, and sometimes their bans are temporary, but it might be useful to distinguish the clueless and arrogant divisive posters from the truly despicable. Most people never learn, but there are a few who do.

Just throwing it out there. I think you do a fine job and would never criticize you or disagree with you in any way, ever.

Your obedient servant,

Rugcat

Deleted member 42 · Nov 23, 2007

rugcat said:
Hey Mac, have you ever thought of an official intermediate step, a suspension for a week, say, instead of a ban? Like sports leagues do? (Sorry for the sports comparison) I know people get warnings, and sometimes their bans are temporary, but it might be useful to distinguish the clueless and arrogant divisive posters from the truly despicable.

Yes, there are other options and they are used, and yes, there are distinctions made -- you'll notice distinctions between Banned, and Taking a Short Break, for instance . . . and there are umm . . .others

arodriguez · Nov 23, 2007

whne do i get my 44 lashes?

arodriguez · Nov 23, 2007

i think this thread is really starting to take off....

badducky · Nov 23, 2007

Fuck, I spend one day at work, and I come back here and nobody is talking about cursing in fiction.

I just want to say that I was reading some lovely passages by Hal Duncan today in "Ink" wherein the narrator's cursing was vital and important and I couldn't imagine the work without it.

And, it's pretty fucking beautiful fantasy, too.

MargueriteMing · Nov 23, 2007

All depends on the intent of the work. I've read fantasy with profanity in it that was good, I just disagree that it would be right in Tolkien's work.

arodriguez · Nov 24, 2007

******************SPOILER****************

But if Tolkien were alive today, and he had to compete with George RR Martin, do you think he could make some gritty dark characters who fuck their sister, throw little boys off a roof, kill fucker with molten pots of gold on their head, fuck peole out in the open while their tribe watches, beat a guy in a duel and then SHIT on him.

Love tolkien...worship GRRM

oscuridad · Nov 24, 2007

arodriguez said:
...fuck their sister, throw little boys off a roof, kill fucker with molten pots of gold on their head, fuck peole out in the open while their tribe watches, beat a guy in a duel and then SHIT on him.

I see you've been to Hackney, then.

MattW · Nov 24, 2007

arodriguez said:
beat a guy in a duel and then SHIT on him.

Who did that? Memory fails me, but I should remember something like that! The Mountain?

Marian Perera · Nov 24, 2007

I think that was Strong Belwas, who defeated the hero of Meereen in a battle and then, well, took a dump. I don't recall him doing so on the dead guy, but he did wipe himself with the dead guy's cloak.

Simple Living · Nov 24, 2007

arodriguez said:
How does everyone feel about the common words we use for expletives in a high fantasy book? If you saw the words shit, fuck, etc used in a novel like LOTR, would your suspension of disbelief be shattered?

would you be drawn out of the experience or would you continue to read, provided it was seemless and not overused. Would you feel its like a cliche? Just poor taste?

What parameters do you think would have to be in place for these devices to work?

Vulgar language is just that. Vulgar. It never had a chance of appearing in J.R.R. Tolkien's work because it wasn't a part of his character. I know people will disagree with me, and that's fine, but the language writers use in their stories is partly a reflection of who they are. It can't not be.

Curse words aren't necessary. A talented, creative writer can write without them. It doesn't add "realism." (While I respect Stephen King's accomplishments, I hate his writing.)

Again, these are just my opinion on the subject. Most of the people I know who read feel the same way. When writers use these words, they are literally limiting their readership. Many readers feel the same way, but how many readers have you heard say, "Man! I would have loved that book if the language had been raunchier!" If a novel is using the words you described above, I stop reading and won't read that author again. Such was the case with Joe Hill and his novel, Heart-Shaped Box.

oscuridad · Nov 24, 2007

arodriguez said:
But if Tolkien were alive today, and he had to compete with George RR Martin, do you think he could make some gritty dark characters who fuck their sister, throw little boys off a roof, kill fucker with molten pots of gold on their head, fuck peole out in the open while their tribe watches, beat a guy in a duel and then SHIT on him.

clearly you haven't read 'The Silmarillion' or 'The Children of Hurin', or, indeed, the Appendices to LotR. Most of that sort of stuff is in there (well maybe not shitting on people, [although, of course, standard anti- siege tactics included throwing night soil as well as boiling oil over the attacking army, so it might be in there, by inference]) - he just doesn't give us the details, doesn't need to.

I've never read George R. R. Martin, but you have piqued my interest...

Marian Perera · Nov 24, 2007

Simple Living said:
Many readers feel the same way, but how many readers have you heard say, "Man! I would have loved that book if the language had been raunchier!"

I've read a book where the author used _____ instead of profanities. I thought those looked like something out of an elementary school test - fill-in-the-blanks - and had the book belonged to me, I'd have done just that, with the words that would have been the most appropriate under the circumstances. In some situations and for some books, it's appropriate to use restrained, refined prose, and for others, it's not. There's a place and a time, IMO.

And I think the one profanity I used in my novel added a nice touch. The heroine is a ~~whore~~ ~~prostitute~~ bad lady owned by the antagonist, until he gives her to the hero. They develop a warm relationship while working together against the antagonist, and when they do finally make love, it's a wonderful experience for her. The antagonist captures her, though, and one of the first things he asks her is, "Tell me, sweetheart, did he fuck you?" I can't think of anything that would be more realistic, appropriate or punchy at that point (though people are free to offer suggestions). And if that one word turns people off from reading my book, that's their loss.

Profanity

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