Lanico Enterprise / Lanico Media House (formerly Living Waters Publishing Co.)

Methinks the lady doth...

allabouttheindustry said:

From another perspective, have any of you contacted anyone there yet? I bet no one has and to me your arguments are invalid if you don't bother to go to the source, as I did with Outskirts and AuthorHouse before I published negative information about them in my blog.

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The other day, I got an e-mail from a woman claiming to related to some dead Nigerian hot shot. I'm sure if I e-mailed her back, she would tell me that the offer was legitimate. If a publisher is problematic, then they won't want to reveal all the facts, or if they do reveal anything, they will not give writers the whole picture. Even legitimate publishers might not reveal everything about troubles (such as problems with royalty payments, issues with their editors, etc.). Just read Piers Anthony's Internet Publishing to learn how publishers can say one thing and authors can say another.

Also, what would you do about somebody like infamous agent Christopher Hill, who has dropped out of site? Or scammer Martha Ivery, who faked her death?

I've been troubled by all the back and forth of this topic, so I decided to do a bit further digging. This is not only something I believe in and defend because of the company itself. I believe in what they stand for. So, I'm passionate about anything Christian. That's just a HUGE part of who I am.

Nevertheless, after digging further, I did finally contact Lacresha Hayes, the President. I sent her to look at this thread. She had heard about it, but hadn't bothered to check it out. Now, I must wipe egg off my face because this was her response to me about what everyone here has been saying, and I'm quoting:

"Terry, I appreciate you and Susan for trying to defend me and the company. That's not necessary though. I don't take offense at anything they've said. After I studied the posts for a bit, I realized that everyone's been saying the same things and are just determined to argue against themselves. Living Waters does do vanity publishing. Unfortunately, we didn't realize until recently that outside people had a problem with understanding we offer traditional publishing also. We've planly stated several times that we are a traditional publisher with a subsidy operation. We've done it more than a few times. Until 3 weeks ago, no one had ever had a problem understanding that. If there are this many people in cyberworld who has a problem understanding who and what we are, then the problem is not theirs but ours.

Don't bother with defending us. God will do it. He started it. He sends those who need our services. And He will continue it. We are a debt free company. We are a true Christian company. Not even our subsidy/vanity/cooperative (depending upon who you speak to in cyberworld) accepts just any kind of manuscript. We are highly selective. At some point, I will post a public note on our blog about the blog you sent me to and a clarification, if you will. It hurt me deeply to see some of the sarcasm and mean-spiritedness, but then again, none of those people know me, or any of the employees, or volunteers who make this business float. They don't know how I've but my own money on the line for the right books. They don't know that in two years, I've not made one red cent from this business. They don't know that my primary source of income is something else altogether and that this is just an extension of ministry for me. Some of them wouldn't care. But, I don't do it for recognition. Neither do I do this for sympathy. Please, don't defend us. Let it be. It will blow over because we have ABSOLUTELY nothing to hide! I do love you for it and I hope to take a look at this book Henry told me about. Thanks for believing in me."

I wasn't going to post this, but I couldn't sleep. I felt like people have been so hurt by scammers, which is a realistic concern, that they sometimes crucify and hurt good people. It is important, whether yall want to hear me or not, that we be careful how we handle each other. Kindness is free and can go so much further than hard and callous words. I don't know exactly what hurt her, but it hurt me to read her reply. Those were things I didn't know, even with all my digging!

Terry, a very humbled man

I've read through this entire thread all the way to Terry's last mystifying post, and have started and stopped this reply about six times. In the sake of "kindness" for all concerned, I will simply say three things:

First: I hope Terry is as humbled by his false accusations of libel earlier in this thread (towards good and honest people who are here trying to keep others from having their lives deeply impacted by scam artists and charlatans) as he claims to be by this "private" communication, which explicitly asks that he "let it be." An apology to the first group would thus seem to be an immediate priority.

Second: even if the person in question had to mortgage her house, sell her car and go into bankruptcy to keep the press going, it would not change the fact that a traditional press can not co-exist with a vanity press, and cannot be "traditional" in any case when it requires fees for publication as Living Waters does. "Subsidiary/vanity/cooperative" are not nuanced terms or matters of opinion on which reasonable people can disagree. They all refer to authors paying for their work to be published, and that means a vanity press, whether you want to call it that or a subsidiary or a cooperative or a kumquat.

Finally: let's please lay off the hyperbole. Especially coming from a self-described devout Christian, using the term "crucify" in this thread and in this context to refer to the honest efforts of people here to help others steer clear of an obvious (and even self-admitted!) vanity operation is not only way off-base but deeply offensive, and very far from being "careful" with "how we handle each other." Given these three things, a good dose of humility would indeed seem to be in order, and not from those who have been doing what they should: warning others that a spade should always be called a spade.

P.F.

Terry, I appreciate your response. I too am a Christian.

But I'm concerned about your blanket passion for "anything Christian", which, in the context you used it, appears to mean "anything run with good intentions by Christians." Christians with good intentions can make mistakes. Christians can make poor business choices. These Christian business can be a poor choice for others, even other Christians, to join.

When Jesus told the story of the good Samaritan, He was warning against evaluating people by their role, and recommending evaluating based on their actions. The Samaritan, who in that culture was considered a less desirable person, nevertheless was the one who did the right thing.

While I feel, based on her letter to you, that the company's founder is indeed sincere in her faith and her intentions, her status as "a Christian" is not enough for me to recommend the use of this business to others. The discussion on this board is about the actions of the company, and whether those actions are helpful to writers. Just as it was (surprisingly, to the culture at the time) a Samaritan who did the right thing in the parable, sometimes it is a non-Christian who is doing the right thing.

By that, I don't at all mean to say that there aren't successful, helpful Christians in publishing with whom I would be thrilled to work. I'm sure there are many. But, when choosing a publisher, the thing to evaluate is what they do, not who they are. (Or, if you prefer, what they do AND who they are.)

"What they do" is all the discussion on this board is trying to clarify.

allabouttheindustry said:

I've been troubled by all the back and forth of this topic, so I decided to do a bit further digging. This is not only something I believe in and defend because of the company itself. I believe in what they stand for. So, I'm passionate about anything Christian. That's just a HUGE part of who I am.

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Well, I don't know about the big God up there in the sky, but I am god of this forum, and I think this discussion has more than run its course--nay, has become painfully repetitive.

I decree that there shall be no further argument about what Living Waters does or does not intend, whether it is/is not a vanity publisher, or what is/is not on its website. Especially, there shall be no further invoking of Christianity as either justification or defense. Religious orientation neither validates anyone's business model nor gets them a pass on bad practice.

So mote it be.

[cue lightning bolt]

- Victoria

victoriastrauss said:

Well, I don't know about the big God up there in the sky, but I am god of this forum, and I think this discussion has more than run its course--nay, has become painfully repetitive.

I decree that there shall be no further argument about what Living Waters does or does not intend, whether it is/is not a vanity publisher, or what is/is not on its website. Especially, there shall be no further invoking of Christianity as either justification or defense. Religious orientation neither validates anyone's business model nor gets them a pass on bad practice.

So mote it be.

[cue lightning bolt]

- Victoria

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I always suspected that you had a stash of lightning bolts sitting around, Victoria. That's a pretty sweet perk from WB.

P.F.

They don't know how I've but my own money on the line for the right books. They don't know that in two years, I've not made one red cent from this business. They don't know that my primary source of income is something else altogether and that this is just an extension of ministry for me.

The business model aside, which I do agree conflicts heavily with the operation, the above quote is self explanatory. How could there not be ANY profit in this business (not one red cent), when it is a collaboration of two models, one of which charges some very hefty sums for print? It makes absolutely no sense. And she admits that this is not her primary source of income but an extension of her ministry. Yet the call went out to an additional 75 authors, to add to the current stable of 165. And this is a part-time operation?

The morality or turpitude lies in the fact that you have a diversification amongst the authors themselves--the haves and the have nots--within/under the same publishing company. How do you explain to an author that their manuscript does not qualify for the traditional route, when he/she sees others with contracts that are more priveliged? Please don't tell me that those subsidy/vanity authors asked to go that pay route. All of them would naturally prefer to be taken on by merit and quality alone. And they do admit that certain books qualify for the traditional route. So that decision invariably rests with LV.

I don't know. This whole setup makes no sense to me. If this is a POD without solid distribution and national book store placement, it can only lead to meager sales and exposure, couple with credit card bills and installment plans. One thing all of these authors will never share, or should be discouraged from ever sharing, is a mesage board. Where contract comparisons are made. My crystal ball says that lots of hurt and misunderstood feelings would arise.

Allabouttheindustry, I wish you well in your journey, and I'm glad that you are satisfied with your results. However, many of us are glad for these boards and the warnings and even praises for the various companies and agents out there. Some of us have suffered terribly in the past, and some of us are suffering now. Include me in on that. Every author has the right to know exactly what they're getting into. And it's up to them to weigh the pros and cons--only they can make those decisions.

Victoria, weilder of lightning bolts, I hope I haven't crossed any lines here.

Tri

Here's another "Christian" publisher.

http://www.publishamerica.com/christian-book-publishers/

Christian Book Publishers​

We here at Publish America are proud of our strong reputation as Christian book publishers. The majority of other Christian book publishing companies take the enjoyment out of getting published, and at other Christian book publishing companies the process can become very difficult for first time authors. Our goal is to ensure that when you take advantage of our services - ranging from Catholic book publishing to hymn book publishing - that the process remains as easy and rewarding as possible for you. As an added benefit, as a Christian book publisher we allow our authors to retain the copyrights over their work. So, when you’re looking for a Christian book publisher for your work, Publish America is the smart choice.

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In case you haven’t heard of these darlings, Terry, there’s an entire forum devoted to them. They started out as a vanity press (Erica House), then they regrouped, renamed themselves and coined the term "traditional publisher" to hide the fact they were still a vanity press. They stopped charging fees, offered an advance and royalties, and gave their authors two free copies of their books. All of this wrapped up in a horrific publishing contract backed by a business model that derives the majority of its income from its authors.

So next time you shake your finger at all of us and proclaim the goodness of those behind LWPC, maybe you should step down from your religious soapbox and take a hard, realistic look at what this publisher really has to offer a serious writer. And religion should not factor into that equation.

Emily Winslow said:

Christians with good intentions can make mistakes. Christians can make poor business choices. These Christian business can be a poor choice for others, even other Christians, to join.

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Yes. Yes, yes, yes. A thousand times yes. Can I get an "Amen" in here?

"Sincere" does not always translate into "competent", as well. Obviously everyone wishes to avoid doing business with scam artists. I think everyone should wish to avoid doing business with sincere but incompetent (or unprofessional, or in over their heads, or misguided...you name it) people and organizations as well.

Saying "These people aren't scam artists!" is not a sufficient recommendation on its own. I want to do business with people who demonstrate both strong ethics and sound business sense.

Wait, so they CHARGE authors on the Vanity side of their business, yet they've made "not one red cent" How does that work?

What gets to me about all of this is this sense that the people here at AW actively seek out to destroy good honest work. Aside from the fact that that is simply not true nor remotely evidenced in this thread, it just points to the fact that the defenders who come in here don't do any sort of research or read any other thread in this forum aside from the one that they feel is personally attacking their company of choice.

There was as thread not too long ago about an agent agreement that someone had read where the agent was saying that some costs, such as photocopies etc might be taken out of the client's cheque. The original poster took this as a sign of a scam agent. If we were truly a forum of alarmists, everyone would have responded, "That is horrible! Evil evil agent!!" But because we are a group of extremely well informed individuals from many different areas of the industry, the response was, "Actually such a clause in an agency agreement is normal and not the sign of a scam agent." It would have been far easier to quote the "any agent who charges fees is evil" mantra, but we knew that this is a very typical exception to the rule, and one, that is rarely acted upon despite it being in the contract.

If ANY of the defenders had a good look around they would see that this is a very fair minded forum. And that if any poster here goes overboard they are reprimanded for it.

Allabout - I will try to, as sincerely as possible, say this one more time. When this thread started, Living Waters made it very clear on their website that traditionally published books were still charged fees. Despite you saying otherwise, it was hard for any of us to know what to think when it was there in black and white. Living Waters have since changed that part of the website. That is a good thing. The problem that many people here are still confused about is is there a separate imprint that the traditionally published books are published under? Because if not then how on earth is Living Waters going to establish a reputation as a traditional publisher that has a strict vetting process and looks for quality writing, when half of their books are pay to publish and are printed under the SAME imprint name?

Part of the reason I imagine you are here defending the traditional aspect of Living Waters, aside from just trying to give us the correct facts, is because your book is being published traditionally by them. You are keen to prove, not only to us, but to the general reading public that your book is of quality, and someone chose to publish your book. Surely then, it would be in your best interest to have the book published under a different heading than Living Waters, because otherwise people are going to think you vanity published.

There is a place for vanity publishing and self publishing. We have a sub forum here dedicated to it. While most people here do advocate "traditional" publishing, there are many people here who are self published and know the ropes well. The point is a matter of clarity. To make sure the authors going into any agreement understand what they are getting themselves into. Now that Living Waters have changed their website, things are a bit more clear. What remains unclear yet is how they distinguish between their two different businesses.

Yes some people here respond much more harshly than others to this kind of situation. Some of them have been scammed in the past. Some of them work with scammed authors and are just so tired of seeing authors being hurt. We are all individuals with our own approach to this topic. I am sorry if you have felt personally attacked. I always think it does a great disservice to anyone posting (newbie, or old fogie) when personal attacks come into play because it then negates the actual quality statements being made.

You have accused us of lying, when we have not. You have said you would like to sue us for libel. You have threatened us. We are merely asking questions, some of which you can't answer. The other author who came on here, was very lovely in trying to answer some of my questions and admitted she couldn't answer the one about distinguishing between the two different publishing routes for Living Waters.

In the end no one is going to begrudge you publishing with the publisher of your choice. In fact, I don't think anyone here has any opinion of you as an author one way or another. You came in here as the mouth piece for Living Waters, and so we responded to you as such. Of course you are under no obligation to continue your defense, especially as you are not even a member of the company, but understand that you put yourself in the position you did. You came here. You wrote what you did and then took back several statements. We can only use the information you have provided and the information we have researched from their website. If we are drawing incorrect conclusions, please show us what we are doing wrong, but so far, you have not managed to prove your case.

Perhaps I was too arch in my previous post. I will try to be clearer. This horse has been beaten six feet into the ground. Stop already, or I'll lock the thread.

Thanks.

- Victoria

I have a contract, my own, that I'm willing to share

cethklein said:

Wait, so they CHARGE authors on the Vanity side of their business, yet they've made "not one red cent" How does that work?

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Oh, let me be clear. She said SHE hadn't made any money. Not the business itself. Much of the money is reinvested. Look them up on Hoovers. Anyway, from what I can gather, it's not that anyone here is bad, just that some of you are too damaged to be level-headed. And, LWP actually does have an open forum, a Yahoo group where all the authors gather. They also have a blog. No hurt feels or lies. OPEN communication.

The departments are separated. They have separate rules and acquisition managers. So, I'm happy with what I found out and am happy to have been a part of the investigation. Susan appears happy with what she found in them also. So, everyone here should be happy.

Terry

Oh BTW, I appreciate those of you who asked about a contract. I have Jeannie's for us to look over, and my own. I'm willing to share it. After thorough review by 2 attornies who specialize in media/publishing contracts, it clears. Let me know: [email protected].

Victoria,

I apologize. I didn't see your last entry until I posted this. I apologize again.

Terry

That's it.

Thread's closed.

Unlocking the thread briefly to add a link to a discussion of Aidana WillowRaven, an inexperienced literary agent with ties to Living Waters.

- Victoria

We are kicking it off with our national, one-of-a-kind program, For Kids By Kids Publishing Program. The program will publish 7 manuscripts each month written and illustrated by children. These seven children will get a traditional, royalty-based contract and national exposure for their books and themselves.

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Shades of Aultbea Publishing.

- Victoria

One of Living Waters authors' finds the printers have printed an incorrect version of her book:

http://marisagary.blogspot.com/

I wonder how many parents will shell out big bucks for their little darlings' literary masterpieces.

matdonna said:

One of Living Waters authors' finds the printers have printed an incorrect version of her book:

http://marisagary.blogspot.com/

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!!!!!!!!!


This is why if you're going to pay to be published, it's generally a better idea to actually self-publish. When you self-publish, you're communicating directly with the printer, and you know what they're putting out there.

Guess after being kicked off other yahoogroups for soliciting clients, they decided to start their own:


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/livingwaterspublishing/messages

matdonna said:

Guess after being kicked off other yahoogroups for soliciting clients, they decided to start their own:


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/livingwaterspublishing/messages

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...and from there I found the link to their page about requesting manuscript submissions from kids:

http://inspirekids.weebly.com./for-kids-by-kids-program.html

LynneKelly said:

...and from there I found the link to their page about requesting manuscript submissions from kids:

http://inspirekids.weebly.com./for-kids-by-kids-program.html

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There's a lot of weirdnesses here.

Living Waters is now looking for children's books written and illustrated by children. We will further have children edit the book. The entire publishing process will be in the hands of children. We will provide the promotions and awareness. Your children provide the material.

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No professional input anywhere. How reassuring. And everyone knows child labor is cheap.

The entry fee for this program is $50 for the first submission, $25 each additional submission in any calendar year, which is the total out of pocket for any parent. You will NEVER be asked for another cent! These fees will be used for the national campaign advertisements: television commercials, magazine and newspaper ads, etc. For more information, please contact Lensey Hayes at [email protected].

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An entry fee? So that's what they're calling it now!