The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

TracySutterer & GaryRogers · Jun 6, 2005

James

Sure, Argile. Have you personally written to the FTC yet, stating the facts as you know them?

Working on it. Is anyone else doing the same? :idea:

Argile Stox

Aconite · Jun 6, 2005

mreddin said:
Obviously PA Authors are following this thread here, because suddenly there is a bad review of AW posted how everyone wastes their time "spreading rumors" about PA and "slamming authors".

This p*sses me off, considering what PA authors say about other PA authors. Just days ago, one PA author came to AW to chide us for attacking PA authors by quoting them, and then called PA victims "suckers" -- and the regulars here called her on it and defended the PA authors. So who's bashing, again?

mreddin · Jun 6, 2005

FTC jurisdiction. Although the FTC has jurisdiction over ads for most products and services, Congress has given other government agencies the authority to investigate advertising by airlines, banks, insurance companies, telephone and cable companies, and companies that sell securities and commodities.

Hopefully they wont take the Maryland AG's copout. "Oh, well this is really a business to business transaction so we can't help." Will the FTC take action if a business to business transaction is based on fraud of deceptive practices?

Sheryl Nantus · Jun 6, 2005

Sara Rachael Hope said:
FYI: I just recieved this today in my e-mail inbox, and thought you might be interested in it.
Regards,
D
**********************************************************************

HI
A group of PA authors is getting together to help promote their books. The general idea is, they are looking for 50 or so authors to join in. If the authors will invest enough to purchase 4 of their own books, then they can be bought at the 55% discount. A representative will approach the book stores and offer them the opportunity to buy these books and have them on hand. The book stores will have the ability to get a 90 day return policy, something PA hasn’t offered, and in so doing increase the likelihood that the stores will stock the books.

This is in the early planning stages and they need authors to join in to make it happen. Please go to the Author Forum at,

http://s9.invisionfree.com/Author_Forum/index.php?

Join in the discussion and see if this is something you would like to participate in.

Dan

wow... now they can rip each other off.

and who, pray tell, will be this mysterious "rep" who will wander around from bookstore to bookstore with cases of PA books?

*shakes head*

the blind stealing FROM the blind now, it seems... just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...

:Shrug:

and please note that all of these hopeful geniuses are, again, relatively new victims of PA - either their book isn't out yet or it's barely been on the New Releases page...

:Smack:

James D. Macdonald · Jun 6, 2005

TracySutterer & ArgileStox said:
Working on it. Is anyone else doing the same?

The answer is: Lots have, but not enough yet. Don't be the last PA author on your block to write to the FTC!

Those who haven't gotten with Ann yet for Phase II -- now's the time.

TracySutterer & GaryRogers · Jun 6, 2005

Quote:
FTC jurisdiction. Although the FTC has jurisdiction over ads for most products and services, Congress has given other government agencies the authority to investigate advertising by airlines, banks, insurance companies, telephone and cable companies, and companies that sell securities and commodities. Hopefully they wont take the Maryland AG's copout. "Oh, well this is really a business to business transaction so we can't help." Will the FTC take action if a business to business transaction is based on fraud of deceptive practices?

It is the word "Traditional" which implies that PublishAmerica is a full service publishing house. In PublishAmerica's case, that word is very misleading.

In my letter to the FTC, I will demonstrate that PublishAmerica business practices do not fit that definition - and is deceptive.

Argile Stox

Jeff · Jun 6, 2005

wow... now they can rip each other off.

Indeed, Sheryl.

What I found interesting is that this appears to be an effort for PA writers to get around the no return policy that PA has. What these writers are forgetting is that in taking those returns there is no guarantee that the books will be in re-sellable condition. Bookstores are not like craft malls, where if you break or tear it, you've bought it. It is quite possible that after 90 days the PA books on those shelves will be torn and ragged.

So what happens when the first 90 days are up and the "rep" recieves a box of PA books in the mail with tears and fingerprints and broken sp(l)ines? Or, what if they come back with the covers torn off (Formula = overworked bookstore clerk+"It said return!"+not paying attention=stripped book?)

The big houses can afford, as we have heard here, to take the loss on the paperbacks and have them stripped and tossed. But for every PA writer's book that comes back in anything but brand new sellable condition, the PA writer is out the entire cost of the book.

Unless they start their own USED bookstore, as their next gimmick?

Ed Williams · Jun 6, 2005

Looks like Danny Ingram's thread...

...about the quality of posts on the PA messageboards has vanished...

James D. Macdonald · Jun 6, 2005

Ed Williams said:
...about the quality of posts on the PA messageboards has vanished...

And you're surprised ... why?

===============

If I wanted to convict Publish America of false and misleading advertising, all I'd have to do is show the judge this "fact" from their "Facts and Figures" page:

FACT #5: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them. Obviously, our authors are also not being self-published. In the most commonly used context, POD indicates "Publish On Demand", or vanity publishing. Vanity publishers charge for their "services". Some charge a few hundred dollars, others a thousand or more. We are not in that league, in any way, shape or fashion.

mreddin · Jun 6, 2005

...about the quality of posts on the PA messageboards has vanished...

I bow before your powers of precognition.

M.

NancyMehl · Jun 6, 2005

Hey, Kelli D!!!!!

Are you the PA editor who edited my novel, Graven Images????

You don't know the difference between "its" and "it's." It MUST be you!!

HI!!!! :Shrug:

Sheesh.....

Nancy

Ed Williams · Jun 6, 2005

Just teasin' my new friend...

mreddin said:
I bow before your powers of precognition.

M.

...from Massachusetts here. You know, though, it is bad when a simple thread about the quality of the posts can't last on the PA boards. They not only don't want the truth there, they run from it just as fast as they can...

P.S. A birdie whispered in my ear and told me that the thread has been moved to their top secret boards...

JennaGlatzer · Jun 6, 2005

General Reminder

On last check, Ann said that about 40 people had written to her about Phase II. There are more people than that on this thread. So I'll try again...

You DO NOT have to be a PA author to participate. You just have to care about them.

Writing to Ann will not obligate you to do anything, and she will not add you to any list, spam you, or reveal your name to anyone.

All you need to do is write to [email protected] with a note that says, "I'm interested in participating in Phase II," and she'll send you suggestions for actions you can take.

Please, folks, we need more action. We're the ones who are going to make a difference.

Julian Black · Jun 6, 2005

Sara Rachael Hope said:
The general idea is, they are looking for 50 or so authors to join in. If the authors will invest enough to purchase 4 of their own books, then they can be bought at the 55% discount.

So they are counting on being able to get the 55% discount by purchasing 200+ books, in total. But have they checked to make sure they can do this? Because experience with ordering other things in quantity at a sliding discount tells me PA wouldn't give them 55% for ordering 4 books apiece of 50 titles. It isn't 55% on 200 books--it's 55% on 200 copies of the same book.

A representative will approach the book stores...

Who is the representative? And which bookstores will s/he approach?

...

and offer them the opportunity to buy these books and have them on hand.

You know, every time I am "offered the opportunity" to spend money, especially on a product that I am unfamiliar with, or that comes from a maker with a shoddy reputation, I'm going to politely decline.

The book stores will have the ability to get a 90 day return policy, something PA hasn’t offered...

You might want to start asking some hard questions about why PublishAmerica doesn't offer a return policy, despite the fact that it keeps bookstores from stocking your books.

...and in so doing increase the likelihood that the stores will stock the books.

No, it won't. Booksellers know their business, and in believing this plan will work, you're showing that you don't. Yeah, that sounds mean, and I'm sorry--I know you want to get your book out there--but it's just the plain, unvarnished truth.

This is in the early planning stages and they need authors to join in to make it happen.

Like the 200 authors book, this is doomed from the start. The intentions are good, but it works from some very misguided assumptions about how books make it onto store shelves.

Jeff · Jun 6, 2005

In case anyone is wondering about Ann's Phase Two; I participated. It was painless, took very little time, was not fattening and had no side-effects. If you care and you have a small amount of time to devote one night, please write to her and participate.

Julian Black · Jun 6, 2005

A representative will approach the book stores and offer them the opportunity to buy these books and have them on hand. The book stores will have the ability to get a 90 day return policy...

But, if I am not mistaken, they are expected to pay for the books up front in order to take advantage of this 90-day return policy.

It doesn't work that way. Part of what makes the returns system work is not having to pay up front for stock. Booksellers don't want to fork over cash for books that probably won't sell, then wait for a refund after they've returned them. And who would manage the money involved?

Yeah, I know this plan will never get off the ground, but someone needs to offer a dose of reality.

Arkie · Jun 6, 2005

Danny Ingram's Quality Post Thread

Has moved to the private board.

astonwest · Jun 6, 2005

Julian Black said:
So they are counting on being able to get the 55% discount by purchasing 200+ books, in total. But have they checked to make sure they can do this? Because experience with ordering other things in quantity at a sliding discount tells me PA wouldn't give them 55% for ordering 4 books apiece of 50 titles. It isn't 55% on 200 books--it's 55% on 200 copies of the same book.

It's a bit iffy on this...because they change the rules all the time (much like claiming it's not when you place an order, but when the credit card company comes through, for accepting self-orders with royalties paid). Sometimes it's said that you merely have to buy 200 copies of any book, others 200 of the same book. With most businesses, you could ask the question and get it answered, but we know how much fun Author non-Support can be for getting quick answers to important questions.

Considering each author would only have to pay about $36 (+ their portion of the shipping costs), and considering that PA monitors the internet so much, my guess is they'll nix this after the money is already in the hands of the "buyer". Uh oh, you've already sent money to someone, and the only way you're getting your books is to send more (and oh, look, you only have two more days to place the order)...what'cha gonna do?

Everyone sign Uncle Jim's pledge......quick.

mreddin · Jun 6, 2005

So they are counting on being able to get the 55% discount by purchasing 200+ books, in total. But have they checked to make sure they can do this? Because experience with ordering other things in quantity at a sliding discount tells me PA wouldn't give them 55% for ordering 4 books apiece of 50 titles. It isn't 55% on 200 books--it's 55% on 200 copies of the same book.

A traditional publisher would most certainly honor this request. I'm going to cut and paste several "traditional publishers" discount schedules but leave their names out of respect of the source and their copyright. The bookstore owners on this thread will recognize this I suspect.

Evil Conglomerate #1 with a number of imprints

Freight Policy: Free freight on outgoing orders of all formats to established trade accounts.

SHORT DISCOUNT
All book reorders in the aggregate less than $400 retail value, 40%

All publishers and formats will combine to meet the short discount requirement.This policy does not include initials.

BASE DISCOUNTS
Basic Formats
Mass Market, 44%
Hardcover and Trade Paper, 46%
Audio/Listening Library, 50%

Other Discounts
Audio Downloadable, 50% (nonreturnable)
Beginner Book Games, net priced
Calendars (Trade), 60%
Classics (Adult Mass Market), 48%

MINIMUM SHIPMENT: $200 retail value for reorders, $100 retail value for initials. All publishers and formats will combine to meet the shipment minimum within each warehouse. Shipments that do not meet the minimum will not leave the warehouse and will backorder for up to 90 days in order to combine with other orders. Once a combination of orders exceeds the minimum retail value, it will be shipped.

Co-op Advertising Policy: Allowance is based on appropriate percentage of previous year's (Jan. 1 to Dec. 31) net purchases ... documentation of the actual cost of the promotion and proof of ad must be furnished for reimbursement. (Proof of ad may be stored by account provided that this proof is stored for a least three years, and provided publisher has access to proof. Contact sales rep for details.) ... reserves the right to review the compliance and effectiveness of the expenditure prior to reimbursement. Reimbursements for co-op claims will be made by credits issued to accounts. All claims must be made within 90 days subsequent to end of the calendar year. Pools for allowances are calculated separately by publisher and are based on the following pool:

Co-op Advertising, Audio: 2.00%

Co-op Advertising, Children's (all formats including ...): 4.00%

Co-op Advertising, ...: 4.00%

Co-op Advertising, Trade Paper: 3.00%

Co-op Advertising, Mass Market/Digest: 1.25%

Elite Publisher #2

...trade products and distributed trade titles combine for trade and calendar discounts...

SCHEDULE I--RETURNABLE
Trade Books (Excluding Limited Editions)
Single or Assorted Titles
1 copy, 40%
10 copies, 47%

Limited Editions
(Nonreturnable)
Any quantity, 40%

Co-op Advertising Policy: 2005 RETAIL CO-OP ADVERTISING/PROMOTIONAL ALLOWANCE POLICY

A. ANNUAL PLAN

(1) Each retailer will be allocated three separate annual promotional allowance pools--

(2) Publisher will calculate the pools for each retailer in the following manner: Existing Retailers--The ... Trade pools will each be 3% of the retailer's net purchases of books of that sales division's covered trade imprints for the prior calendar year. The Mass Market pool will be 1.5% of the retailer's net purchases of covered mass market books for the prior calendar year. Net purchases include both direct purchases from Publisher and indirect purchases from wholesalers. New Retailers-A retailer will be considered a new retailer until it has done business with Publisher for a full calendar year. Publisher will allocate pools for a new retailer based on reasonable projections of net purchases for the year. (The projections will be subject to adjustment during the year and may take into account a prior partial year.) Amounts spent in excess of the applicable percentage of the year's actual net purchases will be deducted from the following year's corresponding pool. After the first year, the Existing Retailer calculation will apply.

(3) Subject to the approval requirements set forth in Part (A)(10), a retailer may draw against its available pools for any of the following promotional activities (provided in each case that the title promoted is appropriately featured and the activity occurs within a reasonable time frame for the marketing of the title): retailer-produced bookmarks, posters, or bags; customer mailings; retailer newsletters, magazines, brochures, or circulars; print, radio, or television advertising; retailer seasonal, holiday, or special interest catalogs; author events; advertisements on others' websites. (Other types of promotions will be considered for approval by Publisher.) For each of the above, the retailer will be credited with the retailer's actual cost for the promotional activity, which credit will be charged against the retailer's applicable pool.

Those are real bonafide publishers and their discount and shipping policies to bookstores. I've even cut and pasted in the basic terms of their cooperative advertising offers for bookstores. Does your "traditional publisher" PublishAmerica offer this?? Alas, sadly not and this is why we bristle against their claims to the contrary.

The quantities are all value based, independant of the number of copies or titles. Since these two houses have thousands of backlist titles, a bookstore could order 2 copies of 10 different titles and qualify for the maximum discount, free shipping and even cooperative reimbursement.

Please take note of the coop offers. This dispels the notion that publishers do not make an effort to drum up publicity and sales for their titles. These offers are for any title, bestseller, frontlist or backlist. If a bookstore pitches a title, they get compensation based on a percentage of their total annual expenditures with the publisher. For the larger houses, that can mean 3% of $25,000 or more. Most bookstores jump at this chance because it means cold hard cash back in their pockets (compensated as credit to future purchases, but when your a well known imprint, bookstores are ok with that.) Nearly all publishers including the smaller ones offer some form of cooperative reimbursement programs.

Mike

Jaws · Jun 6, 2005

On "Traditional Publishers"

Although I will no doubt be taken as a broken record again, I'd like to put in a plea to stop using the meaningless term "traditional publisher." So far as I've been able to determine, the phrase appears to have first arisen in the early 1990s when NWPI (the infamous Northwest Publishing, Inc., whose principals are currently serving decade-plus sentences for fraud in Nevada prisons) was trying to distinguish itself from, umm, "traditional" vanity presses. NWPI later settled on "cooperative publishing," but "traditional publishing" still doesn't really mean anything.

Despite PA's efforts, it doesn't mean anything today, either.

I suggest using the term "commercial publisher," which is about as close as one can get to a legally defensible term. That's "commercial" as in "stream of commerce"where one expects to find the booksnot as in "commercial TV with beer commercials every eleven minutes". Frankly, continuing to use the term "traditional publisher" is just going to make communication that much more difficult… because even the counsel at publishers one would think of as "traditional" call themselves "commercial."

mreddin · Jun 6, 2005

I suggest using the term "commercial publisher," which is about as close as one can get to a legally defensible term.

In terms of misleading advertising, I interpret the expression "traditional publisher" as meaning "just like all the other publishers" out there. I really don't see what else they could mean. I suspect about 13,000 others will say much the same thing, a "traditional publisher" is like the myriad of others. PA even reinforces this presumption with their "Facts" page. So I feel while speaking between ourselves, we'll I'll call it whatever you folks think is best. However, I think it is a key ingredient in PublishAmerica's con and should be revealed as such whether the term is nonsensical or legal. The perception of the meaning is critical to the operation of the scam, because most authors clearly have a unified idea of what is meant and use that as a key determination in signing that damnable contract.

Mike

TracySutterer & GaryRogers · Jun 6, 2005

GRRRR!

One last thought before I retire for the evening...

What really singes my buns concerning the new offering from Meiners concerning the history of PublishAmerica, is that this book should be sent out to all 13,000 participating authors via a free e-book. PublishAmerica authors should not have to pay to read about a publishing (printing) company that they have signed with for 7 to 80 years.

Is PublishAmerica in serious financial trouble and they need to raise funds through the sale of this book? Is this book a "red herring" to entice a buyer to purchase the company? This book by Meiners is the quintessential definition of a Vanity Book Publication.

If PublishAmerica is reading this Post ("IF?" Yeah, Right! I have a feeling they have an employee whose sole responsibility is to read the Posts on Absolute Write) I believe it would be in your best interests to dispel any inferences that I have raised concerning the company's future viability in the literary marketplace.

Come on Meiners - Make my day! Come forth and spew the corporate line in this forum. What is that you say? 'The book speaks for its self.' Sure it does... In a one sided conversation - in a sound abated room!

Argile Stox

astonwest · Jun 6, 2005

TracySutterer & ArgileStox said:
Is this book a "red herring" to entice a buyer to purchase the company?

Damn, one could hope......
Maybe Lulu or iUniverse would buy them up...
at least then we wouldn't have to be so ashamed...

Renee · Jun 6, 2005

Trapped in Amber, Kate, Postshy, MartyKay..woo!

Trapped in amber said:
Absolutely. Publish America put their authors in this position. Very few of the ideas I've seen have been weird, and I'm pretty sure those few have been out of desperation.

Yes, that was my point, exactly. It's PA little dead-end game plan in action once again. That's why PA sucks! They drive their authors to desperation in hopes of making a bad deal work, but as the past has proved - it won't work. For anyone publishing through PA - ever. The PA owners do not want their people suceed.

Kate said:
Yep. Well, as "released" as a PA book can get anyway. *Sigh* Too bad I'm swearing off chocolate today.

Awesome news, Kate! :partyguy:

You are one step further from being a PA labeled author, you're on a roll! Congratulations! Are you worried they'll continue to sell your book, even though they've released you, and then not pay you royalties? Do they still have you hooked in? I'm currently trapped in mine, but not worried a bit. I'm so over it. Of course, I'm helping with Phase 2 of Ann's crusade, so they won't just keep getting away with it, but they can eat my books for all I care. haha...

MartyKay- Now that cracked me up! Woohoo, that was awesome! :Trophy:

PostShy- I wasn't sure about your name. Did we talk over at PA? Can't recall who you are by your name, since I don't recognize it. I met sooo many people through PA too, so that makes it a tad more difficult to place you. Lots of good (the authors) people over there! Just not the owners/staff..lol...

lindylou45 · Jun 6, 2005

TracySutterer & ArgileStox said:
Working on it. Is anyone else doing the same?

Argile Stox

This has been done by many, many PA authors. You aren't the first and it's doubtful you'll be the last.

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Coffee Fanatics

Dreamer

Holding out for a Superhero...

Your Genial Uncle

Coffee Fanatics

Quixote without a cause

Your Genial Uncle

Dreamer

She Who Resonates...

wishes you happiness

Will Read Slush for Food.

Quixote without a cause

Will Read Slush for Food.

a reader's ear and a writer's heart

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment

Dreamer

Apex Predator

Dreamer

Coffee Fanatics

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment

The Stooge Slayer