So what DOES he believe?

Sarpedon said:

Thats typical. Trying to lure you in with the camraderie of the men's club.

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too right, run and keep running.

Ruv Draba said:

In fairness, I think that most kids wouldn't care for exactly the reasons you've given. But still... these can be dangerous waters to cross. As I said earlier, may you never have such a child.

Good luck!

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Oh, I think you missed the underlying dogma: Parents Can't Win.

I felt the opposite. I wasn't baptised, for the simple reason I wasn't catholic. But I went to a Catholic school (since they offered the best education) and when - around 6 or 7 - my closest friends were making their First Holy Communion, I was pissed off I couldn't. But I'd have to be baptised first, which of course was for babies and just embarrassing at age seven. It was All Their Fault.

MarkEsq said:

But why do you see this as an either/or proposition? I can't imagine how my going through with a ceremony like this lessens my commitment to them in any way at all.

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I don't know whether it does or not, Mark. In my case, I had a strong sense of being used as a prop in a ceremony really meant for the edification of adults; a ceremony that dishonoured the participants (who weren't there from genuine belief, but just for lip-service), and their relationship to me.

Do you think that by outwardly inviting others to look out for my kids I am somehow abdicating responsibility?

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No; I think that this is a very cool thing - heck, almost a mandatory thing. We ignore one another enough as it is. It's important to make a fuss when a new life joins our community. I'm all for it! (And parents have a right to skite. )

Here's the thing though - I was a very sensitive sort of kid. Where my parents were practical, unimaginative, conformist and (of course) very well-intended, I was idealistic, highly imaginative, individualistic and (alas for them), extremely judgmental. With an adult's perspective I can see that it was simply that the form didn't fit the values my parents held. They had the right idea, but the wrong ceremony. Lacking the imagination and strength of their conviction to invent their own, they just borrowed whatever ceremony society offered, and the infrastructure in which to execute it. A pragmatic, if somewhat lazy decision maybe... but with a child's perspective it looked like they were freakin nuts. It damaged my trust in them because no way could they possibly explain from a symbolic perspective why they'd done it that particular way. (And of course, they still can't but I've stopped hassling them over it).

It never bothered my brother or my sister - but my sister likes conformity and my brother has a surf-bum 'go with the flow' attitude. Neither of them had my childhood idealism or aesthetic sensitivity. If my parents had invented a ceremony it would have delighted the kid I was. It would have touched my heart very deeply, but perhaps my sister would have grown up embarrassed that her parents were freakin hippies. So whaddayagonnado?

Alas, but we don't have (or at least I don't know of) a traditional secular community 'baby-welcoming' ceremony. Again, with adult perspective I must wonder: why the heck not? It's a very fine idea. Why must churches own this function? Why do we let them? Just laziness, I guess.

This sounds like a purely theoretical argument because I can't imagine there is a religion out there that would disqualify you because you were baptized while an infant.

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I don't know of one either - but I bet there's one out there. I certainly know of religions that disqualify people on grounds of birth or ancestry; I bet there are some that do so on the basis of ceremony or religious history too. But you're right. It was a purely theoretical teen argument - I had no intention of seeking such a religion. What I was really bothered about was my parents' laziness in just borrowing a religion's forms without understanding (or caring about) the symbolism of the forms. In other words, they'd borrowed the bias of the society in which they found themselves, instead of being their own moral compass. Realistically, they weren't the first parents to ever do that, but as I said, I was a judgemental sort of kid.

I have a lot of sympathy for your plight, Mark. What I find very funny from this discussion though is the atheist engaging an empty shell of a borrowed ceremony while staring at the (possibly faithless) officiator of the ceremony wondering:

Atheist at the Episcopal minister's 'Vegas'-style baptism said:

. o O ( What DOES he believe in?)

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It's almost cartoonable. It's like an icon of our modern times.

(Looks like I'm still too sensitive and judgemental. )

Ruv

I started a new one, Pat. Just because I don't want to further an off-topic discussion...

Don't panic!

At Pat's request some posts were moved out of this thread and into a new thread titled "Is God Definable?"

Don't worry if a post got missed out or a wrong post got taken, any tidy-up will only take a moment or two once Pat points it out.

AMC, I see you started a new thread, I've merged it into the new split-off thread which seemed the right thing to do. If this is wrong, no worries, it's easily fixed.

-Derek

MarkEsq said:

Hey Ruv, thanks for the input. But why do you see this as an either/or proposition?...

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There is another aspect - baptism is political. For example, as long as parents like you keep pleasing the older generation, the churches can say to politicians, "Look, we're basically a Christian country".