Racism

Racist fiction gets written, and sold, every day.

The Turner Diaries is reported to have sold over 500,000 copies, including one to a guy named Timothy McVeigh.

So some people think a racist protagonist is fine, as if the racist quality is an acceptable quality in a character. And that people are racist all the time. That's fine.

I just think that some people with a moral backbone are going to be put off by this. I know I would. Protagonists are meant to be likable, you're meant to be able to sympathize with them. So if your protagonist is racist, and it's put across that this is a kind of core characteristic of his that is meant to be acceptable, then me and a lot of other people will put the book down.

bsolah said:

Protagonists are meant to be likable

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Not necessarily. I can name quite a few stories with unlikable protagonists.

you're meant to be able to sympathize with them.

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Sympathy/empathy has nothing to do with whether the character is likable or not. That said, the character can still be likable even if there are certain undesirable qualities. Like I said, Archie Bunker, for example.

So if your protagonist is racist, and it's put across that this is a kind of core characteristic of his that is meant to be acceptable, then me and a lot of other people will put the book down.

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I think it depends on how the character is being written, and if it's three-dimensional and realistic and relatable.

bsolah said:

...as if the racist quality is an acceptable quality in a character.

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It is.

bsolah said:

...some people with a moral backbone are going to be put off by this.

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I realise you said only 'some', but still, come on...I have moral backbone. I certainly like to think so. I know racism is wrong. I can still enjoy books where the MC is racist.

In the same vein, I can enjoy books about murder without being a murderer myself because - here's the key - the MC is not me and the MC is not the author.

bsolah said:

Protagonists are meant to be likable...

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No they're not. They're really, really not.

They're meant to be sympathetic, in the sense of being understandable.

bsolah said:

...if your protagonist is racist, and it's put across that this is a kind of core characteristic of his that is meant to be acceptable, then me and a lot of other people will put the book down.

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If that's the case with any book I ever write, then I won't notice the loss of any readers who equate my characters' views with my own. I don't mean that disrespectfully; I'm just saying that if someone judges my morals by those of my characters, it's probably best they stay well away from my fiction.

Willowmound said:

Xenophobic atheists. Lol.

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In a modern context, it sounds absurb. But, say, in a fantasy universe, you have a very religious and naive people, who depend on their gods to defend them against a foreign attack, but instead have a very bad run of luck and are nearly annilated. In that case you might very well end up with an atheistic, if not gods-hating, people who are also extremely xenophobic.

In a modern context, it sounds absurb. But, say, in a fantasy universe, you have a very religious and naive people, who depend on their gods to defend them against a foreign attack, but instead have a very bad run of luck and are nearly annilated. In that case you might very well end up with an atheistic, if not gods-hating, people who are also extremely xenophobic.

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Erm, the Soviets were xenophobic atheists. No reason why it can't be believable in fiction -- even without a fantasy world necessitating ill luck, naivety and annihilation.

Captain Ian said:

Erm, the Soviets were xenophobic atheists. No reason why it can't be believable in fiction -- even without a fantasy world necessitating ill luck, naivety and annihilation.

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The Soviets weren't really xenophobic. The USSR was made up of a panoply of nations and countless ethnicities. Warlike and power-thirsty, maybe, but hardly xenophobic.

That said, everything is believable in fiction as long as it is well written.

bsolah said:

So some people think a racist protagonist is fine, as if the racist quality is an acceptable quality in a character. And that people are racist all the time. That's fine.

I just think that some people with a moral backbone are going to be put off by this.

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I've read, and enjoyed, books where the protagonists are drug addicts*, pedophiles**, murderers*** and incestuous would-be child-killers****.

They were written well enough to be three-dimensional, and they had other qualities which made up for their flaws. Oddly enough, I think all except one of them of them had moral backbones too.

Protagonists are meant to be likable, you're meant to be able to sympathize with them. So if your protagonist is racist, and it's put across that this is a kind of core characteristic of his that is meant to be acceptable, then me and a lot of other people will put the book down.

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It's possible to like and sympathize with a flawed person while still being aware of their flaws. Sort of a "love the sinner, hate the sin" kind of thing. I'd be put off by a book if I felt the writer was bending over backwards to condemn something about the character, rather than letting me make up my own mind whether their characteristics were or were not positive traits.

*Sherlock Holmes.
**Jericho Moon, Matthew Woodring Stover.
***The First Man in Rome, Colleen McCullough
****A Storm of Swords, George R. R. Martin

ErylRavenwell said:

everything is believable in fiction as long as it is well written.

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An eternal truth I'll drink to.

The Soviets weren't really xenophobic.

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I disagree. This opinion is erroneous because it is based on what you think about the USSR, instead of what you know about the USSR. But that's off-topic. I will not try to dissuade you.

The bottom line is, xenophobia and atheism do not cancel each other out -- I don't know what is the reason to think otherwise. Especially so in fiction. To think that faith in God breeds hatred or fear of other nations is insulting.

Captain Ian said:

To think that faith in God breeds hatred or fear of other nations is insulting.

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Depends on what else is beneath the "faith in God" umbrella.

If people believe that their god wants them to treat everyone kindly, I don't think their faith is likely to breed hatred.

On the other hand, if people genuinely believe that their god wants them to massacre infidels or picket the funerals of gay people, I think it could be argued that their faith is a contributing factor to their hatred and fear.

That's the whole point -- it depends on other factors outside religion. It's not even religion that was discussed, but rather theism/atheism, which is entirely different altogether. The fact that I believe or do not believe in a higher power does not affect my xenophobia or lack thereof.

The same way as "xenophobic atheism" can't be called an oxymoron. Atheism and xenophobia have no bearing WHATSOEVER on each other.

Captain Ian said:

That's the whole point -- it depends on other factors outside religion.

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I don't understand. If a person's religion orders him to kill people of a certain ethnic group, and therefore he kills people of that ethnic group, what's the factor outside his religion that's making him kill them?

A religion doesn't order anyone to kill people. Other people do.
Besides, like I said, it wasn't religiousness that was discussed -- it was theism/atheism. Just because you're not an atheist will not make you xenophobic. Similarly, being an atheist does not make anyone immune to xenophobia.

Captain Ian said:

A religion doesn't order anyone to kill people. Other people do.

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Well, I've read the Old Testament, and there are a few instances where God commands the Israelites to kill the Amalekites, the Philistines, etc.

Besides, like I said, it wasn't religiousness that was discussed -- it was theism/atheism.

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I understand, but I'm commenting on your statement that "To think that faith in God breeds hatred or fear of other nations is insulting".

I understand, but I'm commenting on your statement that "To think that faith in God breeds hatred or fear of other nations is insulting".

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So? I believe in God. It doesn't make hate anyone. I don't see a contradiction.

I've read the Old Testament, and there are a few instances where God commands the Israelites to kill the Amalekites, the Philistines, etc.

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Does it mean that anyone who follows the Scriptures will kill anyone who calls himself an Amelekite? Or at least start hating them?

Other factors come into play here -- like people USING religion to hate other people. if you hate someone, you can use any excuse. That's the external factor I was referring to, and it does not limit itself to religion.

On top of all, how does having xenophobic atheists make fiction any less believable? This is actually the point being discussed.

Captain Ian said:

So? I believe in God. It doesn't make hate anyone. I don't see a contradiction.

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Likewise, there are plenty of devout people who believe in God and hate cerrain people because they believe their faith commands them to do so.

Does it mean that anyone who follows the Scriptures will kill anyone who calls himself an Amelekite? Or at least start hating them?

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That's not the point. The point is that you said, "A religion doesn't order anyone to kill people. Other people do".

So the example I gave where God orders the Israelites to kill people of another race... is that a case of people ordering other people to kill, or a religion/a god ordering people to kill?

Other factors come into play here -- like people USING religion to hate other people. if you hate someone, you can use any excuse. That's the external factor I was referring to, and it does not limit itself to religion.

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It doesn't, but I wouldn't discount the role of religion or make it innocent in this regard. Without a belief that people of a certain ethnic group are evil and without the assurance that killing them is divinely mandated, are people just as likely to kill?

This argument is pointless. We are talking about different things.

The original statement:

In a modern context, it[xenophobic atheists] sounds absurb

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I do not see any reason why an atheist can't be xenophobic. I also said that, vice versa, believing in God does not make a person automatically xenophobic. That's it.

Instead we started discussion as to why a believer can be xenophobic. It is entirely beside the point, especially considering that we are discussing the views of fictional characters, and their believability.

I believe that in a modern context xenophobic atheists do not sound absurd. And I can't see how anyone can make me feel otherwise, just as I see no reason to prove my own point. Some people find some things absurd, some people don't -- and that's why in fiction anything can happen.

Atheist = believes there is no god.

Xenophobe = one who has irrational fear or hatred of foreigners and/or strangers.

So. How ridiculous is it to say you can't hate strangers unless you believe in god? The two are not mutually exclusive. Neither do they automatically go together. They're two distinct 'belief systems' if you like.

Captain Ian said:

I do not see any reason why an atheist can't be xenophobic. I also said that, vice versa, believing in God does not make a person automatically xenophobic. That's it.

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No, you also said that it was insulting to believe that faith in God could result in hatred or fear of other nations. I pointed out that that depended on the specific faith, and offered an example to back up my point.

People can hate strangers for many different reasons - personal ones, political propaganda, a religion which condemns those of a different tribe, etc.

Instead we started discussion as to why a believer can be xenophobic. It is entirely beside the point, especially considering that we are discussing the views of fictional characters, and their believability.

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Perhaps so, but at least it provides a rationale for how such characters might justify their hatred and fear.

I'm not defending the "no xenophobic atheists" bit because I don't agree with it. But similarly, I don't agree that some religions are innocent of responsibility with regard to racism.

Queen of Swords said:

I've read, and enjoyed, books where the protagonists are ... pedophiles**,

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I was expecting Lolita.

One more for my list! Thank you.

No, you also said that it was insulting to believe that faith in God could result in hatred or fear of other nations.

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I said that faith in God IN ITSELF cannot breed hatred. Not a "specific faith" like you mentioned, not a "religion" but a faith in God that is the exact opposite in meaning to atheism.

The Old Testament has nothing to do with it, and neither does the Koran, or any religious doctrine or teaching.

"God exists" -- I believe in this notion, and I find it insulting that anyone can think that this can cause hatred without any additional human factors, while atheism, or "God does not exist", eliminates xenophobia, without any additional human factors. This is preposterous. And it has nothing to do with creating a convincing characterization in fiction.

If I've made my position clear, I'd like to end this topic

Captain Ian said:

I said that faith in God IN ITSELF cannot breed hatred. Not a "specific faith" like you mentioned, not a "religion" but a faith in God that in the opposite of atheism.

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But different people have different ideas of what faith constitutes. If a person has faith in a kind, benevolent god, I think that person is unlikely to kill anyone. If a person has faith in a god who commands them to kill others, I think that person is likely to kill someone - and their faith is at least partially responsible.

The Old Testament has nothing to do with it, and neither does the Koran, or any religious doctrine or teaching.

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Nothing to do with what? With the concept of "faith in God" or with gods who specifically order their followers to kill?

"God exists" -- I believe in this notion, and I find it insulting that anyone can think that this can cause hatred, while atheism, or "God does not exist", eliminates xenophobia. This is preposterous.

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I'm not claiming that atheism eliminates xenophobia.

I'm also not agreeing that faith is as simple to everyone as "God exists". It immediately raises the question of "who is God" - and different people will have different answers to this.

Ultimately, though, there are many different reasons for racism, in fiction or real life, and sometimes those reasons will have to do with a person's or a character's religious faith. Since I also believe I've made my position clear, I'm willing to stop here if you are.

But different people have different ideas of what faith constitutes.

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By faith, I was referring directly to "theism", the antonym of "atheism". Not any ideology, set of moral qualities or religious organizations or writings.

What is written in the Old Testament has no bearing on whether I believe in God's existence or not. Simple as that. Please PM me if you want to delve into this further, which I would rather refrain from. At least in this forum topic.