Cacoethes Publishing House, LLC

c2ckim said:

I agree. I enjoy having a hand in the future of my work. Who to make it better than the author him/herself?

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The publishers' sales force and publicity personnel, that's who. They are trained professionals with instant access to huge markets.

I have done both hand-selling of micropress books and publishing with a large New York house. Both were interesting and useful experiences. Only one netted me tens of thousands of dollars, though, because the New York house got my book into thousands of stores. The micropress books were hard work to get into a hundred stores.

If what you want is to sell a couple hundred copies of a book, then Cacoethes may well be a good fit (though I know lots of micropresses and small presses that provide much better author support than they appear to, based on the testimony of both the satisfied and dissatisfied authors in this thread).

If you want to sell thousands of copies of a book, or to make a living as a writer, Cacoethes isn't going to get you there.

Holy cow don't you all have something better to do?

If you are a Cacoethes author and you had any expectation that they were going to push your book hard into stores or they were going to get you radio time or print ads in magazines you are extremely delusional.

Cacoethes states UP FRONT that they will edit your book, design your cover, produce an eBook and a print copy and put it in Ingram and on various eBook sites. They do that. They tell you they pay you quarterly, jury still out on that but I can't imagine they will stiff me.

If you signed up with a publishing company like Cacoethes (of similar size and prowess) and expected to live off the earnings... well I can't imagine your books is very good because you clearly aren't too bright...

I will tell you all why *I* signed on with Cacoethes Publishing after reviewing several options for my book. I am a 35 year old father of three, divorced and remarried with full custody of my young'ins. I have a full time job in IT that takes up a lot of time. I also spend a lot of time working with my community and church. And, yes, I still find the time to write -- holy crap -- imagine that! And, I can promote too -- because BELIEVE IT OR NOT Random House makes you do promotion too, they just tell you when and where instead of you having to make the phone call. It's not rocket science people, it is akin to pushing your music out to the world. It is the way of the world now -- you MUST push your own stuff to get noticed by anyone. I wanted to write what was in me and get it out. To accomplish the goal of writing and seeing it in print on a shelf. While it would be a lovely thing to live off writing, I have been down the "creative employment" road before and let me tell you somethign about it... not knowing when your next paycheck is coming or for how much it is SUCKS. And if you think selling 100,000 copies of your book is going to make you rich, you are high. Back in the 90's I wrote, played on and helped produce 2 gold records and made almost nothing from them.

Why? Well, partially because I was a stupid teenager. But also partially because I got what I thought was a sweet contract with a major record label who had the size and pull to get my music into stores, on shelves and in front of people who would buy it. And they did... but they took A LOT of the money, put someone elses name on MY WORK and then told me to screw off.

THAT is what a big company might do to you! If your goal is to be James Patterson or Judith Krantz -- good luck to you. Seriously, good luck, God Speed and all that. Just make sure you have a good agent and a good lawyer -- you'll need them both. And they cost money. I mean it, it is going to take a lot of hard work and taking a lot of rejection and persevering. You will need to beleive in your work when no one else does. Bottom line -- success does not come easy.

So ask yourself this... what is your goal as a writer? What are you motives? Do you want to be Stephen King because you love his car collection? Or do you want to be a writer because that is what is in you? Because I have to be honest here and tell you that what I am seeing in this forum are people who enjoy putting other people down. They enjoy feeling superior and like a martyr. The feel like they need to be wounded so people can tell them it's OK... and thusly make them feel like they are OK. And I have a problem with people like that. I have a problem with people who think they are better than other people because they made different choices.

Those of you who are looking down your noses at writers who choose to publish with POD's think that we had no other options, I assure you that is not the case. You assume that our books aren't worthy of reading and we are stupid -- I assert that those of you who submit 600 manuscripts and continually get rejected but keep submitting the same manuscript over and over aren't all that bright. And don't act like there aren't people on this site who do that, there are and some have posted on this thread. Haven't you all heard that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

I agree, Cacoethes has dropped the ball with my book getting it in the pipeline. And I would be oversimplifying it if I said "it's all good" now just because it is rectified. It's not, mistakes were made, money was wasted. It happens -- but it happens with big contract publishers, too. I also agree, Cacoethes does not communicate well with their authors and that needs to be rectified. All is not perfect with them. And if you are considering a small Internet based publisher like Cacoethes, then you should take that into account... but if you are signing with a publisher like Cacoethes when you really want to be with Little Brown and Company then you are selling yourself short.

But, ask yourself this: Why am I writing? And answer yourself honestly. Are you writing because you are a writer -- or because you want to be a writer? Because you are either a writer, or you are not. You cannot become a writer.

Those of you who this is directed at know who you are. I'll see you off your high horses.

Whether a micropress publication would be considered a professional writing credit by a larger publisher or an established literary agent is an open question. Micropresses vary so much in their professionalism that there's no standard answer for this. Sales numbers are very important--it's not very likely, for instance, that a micropress book that sells only a couple of hundred copies would give you a leg up to a larger press.

(This has nothing to do with the quality of the book, by the way, since an unprofessional publisher will as happily publish a good book as a not-so-good one.)

- Victoria

brucesarte said:

If you signed up with a publishing company like Cacoethes (of similar size and prowess) and expected to live off the earnings... well I can't imagine your books is very good because you clearly aren't too bright...

<snip>

I assert that those of you who submit 600 manuscripts and continually get rejected but keep submitting the same manuscript over and over aren't all that bright.

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Well, it appears that whether people decide to go with a micropublisher or wait for a mainstream publisher, they aren't too bright.

brucesarte said:

BELIEVE IT OR NOT Random House makes you do promotion too, they just tell you when and where instead of you having to make the phone call.

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Promotion and sales are not the same thing, though.

I've published with Random House, and though they set up booksignings, radio interviews, TV interviews, and speaking engagements for authors, they don't ever ask or expect authors to get their books into stores or hand-sell their books from a card table.

Promoting your book is a lot easier if you've got a professional sales and distribution force behind you. The author is a useful part of the promotion and publicity aspect, but that has to be supported by a strong marketing and distribution aspect.

And many micropublishers and small presses do work with professional distributors (like the Independent Publishers Group or Consortium or others) to get books into stores (and on the radar of libraries, which is a potential market of thousands of sales right there).

In general, people who are considering publishing with a micropress or small press should be focused on four issues:

a. What's the distribution like? Have I seen books by this press in a store or in my local library?
b. What kind of author support does the press provide?
c. What's the quality of the product? Are the books well edited? Well laid out? Decent quality, durable bindings? Attractive cover design?
d. Is the contract fair? Does it seem worth it to me to give up a percentage of the sales of the book in return for what I'm getting from the publisher? Does it seem worth it to me to give up some control of my publication rights in return for what I'm getting from the publisher?

IceCreamEmpress said:

Promotion and sales are not the same thing, though.

I've published with Random House, and though they set up booksignings, radio interviews, TV interviews, and speaking engagements for authors, they don't ever ask or expect authors to get their books into stores or hand-sell their books from a card table.

Promoting your book is a lot easier if you've got a professional sales and distribution force behind you. The author is a useful part of the promotion and publicity aspect, but that has to be supported by a strong marketing and distribution aspect.

And many micropublishers and small presses do work with professional distributors (like the Independent Publishers Group or Consortium or others) to get books into stores (and on the radar of libraries, which is a potential market of thousands of sales right there).

In general, people who are considering publishing with a micropress or small press should be focused on four issues:

a. What's the distribution like? Have I seen books by this press in a store or in my local library?
b. What kind of author support does the press provide?
c. What's the quality of the product? Are the books well edited? Well laid out? Decent quality, durable bindings? Attractive cover design?
d. Is the contract fair? Does it seem worth it to me to give up a percentage of the sales of the book in return for what I'm getting from the publisher? Does it seem worth it to me to give up some control of my publication rights in return for what I'm getting from the publisher?

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IceCream - I agree with you 100%. And I understand the difference between marketing and promotion. As I said earlier, authors should know what they are signing up for when they sign that contract. Do your due diligence, if you haven't then it is your own fault if you are not happy.

My point about having to do promotion with a company such as Random House was that it still takes time. Several people on this thread were incredulous with the idea of doing their own marketing and promotion because they felt they would not have enough time to write. The reality is that with a megapress you may find yourself with less time to write because you are on the road. I am not saying that is bad for everyone, but it would be bad for me. With a family and a day job, I can't go on a two week promotional tour. So, with Cacoethes I am able to set my own appointments and signings and got regionally as my schedule allows. So far, it looks like that will work out fine for me. Yes, I will sell fewer books but I am OK with that. Signing with Cacoethes cost me nothing but my book, promotion and marketing will be a cost -- but it is controllable by me. And whatever royalties are generated are gravy. My book is published, in a few stores, on Amazon and I am working on some libraries.

brucesarte said:

The reality is that with a megapress you may find yourself with less time to write because you are on the road.

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Very few first-time authors go on book tours.

If you're at the point where your publisher is sending you on two-week book tours, it's very likely that writing is your full-time job; you'll have plenty of time the other 50 weeks of the year in which to write.

Roger J Carlson said:

Well, it appears that whether people decide to go with a micropublisher or wait for a mainstream publisher, they aren't too bright.

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Fortunately, being bright and being able to write an entertaining story aren't necessarily related.

DecemberQuinn said:

If you're at the point where your publisher is sending you on two-week book tours, it's very likely that writing is your full-time job; you'll have plenty of time the other 50 weeks of the year in which to write.

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Also, the publicist works with the author in creating the promotion schedule. After all, it's in the publisher's interest to allow their authors enough time to write more books.

James D. Macdonald said:

Fortunately, being bright and being able to write an entertaining story aren't necessarily related.

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Ah good. There's hope for me yet.

brucesarte, I know a fair number of writers who are able to juggle book promotion and writing. Some are with large houses, some with small presses. Some have a day job AND crank out a couple of novels a year along with doing convention appearances. I don't know how they do it.

Me, I do some self-promotion. I make a few convention appearances every year, a signing once in a while, that sort of thing. I try to make it easy to find where buy my books and photography via my web site. The photography side is something I'm starting to build and I'm doing this on my own. Sorta self-publishing if you will. So yes, I know about getting out there and hustling and trying to get my work on the walls of a few coffee houses. But I choose to do that. I knew the job was dangerous when I took it. ;-)

The truth is, all else being equal, some writers are more comfortable with the idea of self-promotion than others. If you want to do it and enjoy the process, then why not? But if you'd rather spend more time on your next book, then you should be able to do that as well with the assurance that your publisher's marketing department is doing its job.

But you know what, brucesarte? If you're able to set up your own bookstore signings (a lot of us do) and your publisher can get the books there, that's excellent news. If they're working to step up and stand behind their writers in other ways (as Canadian Writer pointed out upthread), then that's also good news.

I've come back to add one more thing because I don't want this to come across like I'm looking down my nose at you or putting you down, because that's not my intention. One thing we're concerned about is that some writers who don't do their homework before they sign the contract. If you know exactly what you're getting into, you know their distribution model, you know what you're going to have to do in terms of promotion, then that's fine with me. I'm concerned about writers who have unrealistic expectations when they sign a contract with any publisher. Does that make sense?

And if I haven't said so already, welcome to AW.

Update

After reading the guestbook on the Cacoethes website, it seems that there is an even larger group of authors who are not only dissatisfied, but irate with Cacoethes.

I advise that we at least file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau [www.thebbb.org]. I have.

We need to try and organize as a group, because otherwise our hard work will be for naught, and this company will have had full ability to take advantage of us.

I applaud those who have already sought legal action. It's tough for me to put money into this, as I feel they've already taken enough from me already.

As for those writers who continue to have a positive experience, you are in the minority. While you may be the pets of the organization, be aware that the rest of us are being treated poorly, and none of us deserve that. I met all of my deadlines, and was told by one of the editors that my book was a good one. I performed on my side of the table, Cacoethes certainly did not.

Let's try and reclaim our dignity and our stories.

A link to the guestbook. It makes for interesting reading.

- Victoria

Thanks for the info CaoPaux - I'm the first to admit I'm a novice at this sort of thing.

I am open to any and all methods to resolving this conflict. I want all of the Cacoethes writers to be aware of what's going on, and hope that somehow we can get a message across to them that we are no longer going to tolerate this.

However if family members etc ordered a book some time ago and did not receive it they have a basis for making a consumer complaint.

I see from Bruce's post on that guestbook that even his very low expectations were disappointed. Color me shocked.

Does anyone know if Cacoethes has gone under?

I've tried contacting them via phone and always get a "this number is disconnected" message (though this may be a problem with my own phone), and my e-mails haven't been getting through lately. My book's scheduled for release in a few months, so I'd really like to get in contact with them regarding the final copy, but I'd also like to know if I should start looking for a different publisher. Thank you!

rgallagher81706 said:

I've tried contacting them via phone and always get a "this number is disconnected" message (though this may be a problem with my own phone)

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Getting a "this number is disconnected" means exactly what it says - their number is disconnected. It has nothing to do with your phone, unless you're dialing the wrong number If they've not given a new number with which to be contacted, I'd take this as a bad sign.

Just reposting from the guestbook to make sure everyone has the contact information they've posted:

[FONT=Verdana, tahoma, helvetica, arial]Gen. questions: [email protected]

Submissions: [email protected]

Author Needs: [email protected]

Technical Issues: steven@[email protected]

Office numbers: (253) 536-2166
(253) 536-3747
[/FONT]

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Marketing?

I've read/ skimmed over most of this forum, and I'm still confused as to Cacoethes's marketing plans. What, exactly, is the writer expected to do? And the publisher? Can anyone who has written and marketed several books with Cacoethes tell me what they expect and what can be expected from them?