WHY do you dislike Self/POD Publishing?

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Hillgate

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Jen, I just read a little of your book; I got to the part where the younger sister was going down the dark hallway-because it had no windows, and stopped right there.
I'm not actually published as of yet, but I do a lot of critiquing for people on AW, and I critique them hard. I call myself the superbitch of crits, and to be honest, your story could have done with a few beta-readers too.

I know this is not a critique board, but just to illustrate the benefit of an editorial team, and just sticking to the first page of your novel Jen, there is a grammatical no-no/cliche in the first line (the split 'here or there') plus your use of punctuation (eg 'its' not 'it's') plus 'The teacher accused..' at the start of another sentence does not really make sense.

I'm sure the book's good, but these are simple grammatical/syntactical errors which a Beta reader, as Samantha's Song suggests, and/or an editor, would have spotted.

I have to tell you honestly that my agent would not have read beyond the first line of your book and I am not saying this to be unkind but just to illustrate that perhaps your book wasn't yet ready for publication: it may well be superb and well-told, but the basic grammar stuff will turn off a lot of readers, especially professional ones. :)

Please take this as constructive criticism and not the reverse!!
 

Diana Hignutt

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Okay, but remember you asked for it.

I'm afraid that I'm one of those authors who is embracing self-publishing, but with a few important caveats. I had the dreadful misfortune of giving my first novel over to a scam POD publisher (got a lawyer and got it back though), and the lesser misfortune of signing my second book with a brand new tiny start-up publishing house (eventually got remaindered--that's what ya get only having the second book in a series commercially available). So, I "wised up" as most would say, scouted out for agents (had three top agents reject me with reluctance, telling me how super talented I was, but the the timing wasn't right for me--I'm assuming they meant marketing-wise), had a kindly friend (from here) put in a good word for me at the top publisher of my genre and this publisher has had my book for almost three years now without a word (even after polite inquiries). Someone else refered me to their agent--got a rejection from some assistent(the agent never even got to read my query). So, I decided to take my marbles home...

I don't take kindly to authority, I much prefer to be the master of my own destiny. And besides there are advantages to keeping all the profits from a venture.

I've decided to self-publish...kind of. But here's the difference between what your talking about: I started my own publishing company (an LLC), I have partners and investors. I have degrees in Economics and Business Management, over twenty years of business experience, three years of those running a moderately sized small business. I spent more than a year as the marketing director for a publishing company, and turned them from a new no-name POD into a respected commercial publisher, getting bookstore placements, and major reviews. I have tons of industry and media connections.

The first book we're publishing is my first novel, completely revised with an introduction by someone who is literally a comic book legend and a famous science fiction/fantasy author. Editing? I've got the former chief editor of a small publishing company who's also the head of the creative writing department of a North Carolina university. Cover Art? I've got a famous artist who's been working for the biggies since the 80's. Distribution? I've got a likely go from a major book distributor (obviously they want to see the final product before they committ--can't blame them). Marketing? I've got good connections in local bookstores in the Philadelphia area, I've got a Hollywood film editor (and owner of his own production company) working on a viral marketing campaign for me. I've got great connections in the review media, I've done literally hundreds of interviews online, in newpapers, in magazines, on radio stations across North America, and local, regional, and national television. My first novel's subject matter parrallels my own personal story, so I have a strong platform for marketing. My books have recieved numerous strong reviews and award nods. Have have a few thousand dollars budgeted for ads and whatnot.

My friends at Publishers Weekly (yeah, I have those) tell that this new, completely revised edition with the introduction isn't technically a reprint, so I have that going for me.

I have help. I have experience. I have tons of money (not just mine) riding on this. And you know what? I know I'm still taking a hell of a chance. We have to pretty much sell out our first print run of 2,000 books just to start making any real money. It's risky. All new businesses are.

So, If I have all of that going for me, and I'm playing this very conservatively and cautiously, and I'm realisticly concerned... what chances do you have at self-publishing?

And, BTW, POD's just can't make real money, because their model just doesn't allow it--high production costs, low production values, no distribution. If you want to be read or make any money writing it's a no brainer, IMHO.

Don't forget, you get one debut novel, just one....

Hope this helps.
 

Cyia

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Not to mention that for all their NOT doing anything for you, vanity "publishers" still lock up the rights to your book so you can't do anything else with it until the contract runs out.
 

KikiteNeko

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I don't take kindly to authority, I much prefer to be the master of my own destiny. And besides there are advantages to keeping all the profits from a venture.

Just curious, but have you had an agent before? If so, maybe you didn't have a very good one. Mine has never dictated how my novels should be written. We sometimes sound off on ideas to decide what would be more marketable, and she warns me if my ideas are too similar to what's out there. But it's 100% up to me to write it my way, and then she will read it. The changes she's suggested have never been drastic or changed the story. She offers advice on fine-tuning, and then it's off to the editors, who make it even more saleable.

I've never felt stifled creatively or bossed around. One can be master of one's own destiny without being on one's own.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Just curious, but have you had an agent before? If so, maybe you didn't have a very good one. Mine has never dictated how my novels should be written. We sometimes sound off on ideas to decide what would be more marketable, and she warns me if my ideas are too similar to what's out there. But it's 100% up to me to write it my way, and then she will read it. The changes she's suggested have never been drastic or changed the story. She offers advice on fine-tuning, and then it's off to the editors, who make it even more saleable.

I've never felt stifled creatively or bossed around. One can be master of one's own destiny without being on one's own.

Yes, I've had two bad agents, but to be honest, when I was talking about being the master of my own destiny, I was more refering to the way my book is produced, distributed, and marketed (after coming from a small press background). I still listen to my editors, and take their advice--I don't think I have "golden word syndrome". So, my mastery wasn't refering to the creative side, there's a great deal more too it than that.

I am, admittedly, a rather unique case. Frankly, to be clear, I don't recommend self-publishing; I've seen it destroy careers before they begin.
(Do as I say, not as I do).
 

popmuze

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I was going to open a new thread on this very subject when it suddenly appeared--as it usually does--on the minds of the AW cognoscenti.
I have had a dozen non-fiction books published over the years, with one coming out in 2009. I also wrote three well-received but poor selling YA novels for a major publisher in the 80s. Yet publishing adult fiction remains my consuming desire (even though my agent recently informed me that YA is one of the few areas still selling).
This agent has been somewhat half-heartedly peddling a novel of mine for the last year or so (which has received about six generic rejections). When I told him I was writing for a website that drew 4 million hits a month reaching the same audience that would be interested in the subject matter of my novel, he suggested I go the POD route with it (trading my writing for free ads on the site). "Once you sell 5000 copies, we can go back to publishers with a better story."
Is this just a reaction to the dim economic times? Would a presence (and an ad) on a well-read website help me sell 500 (let alone 5000) copies of my novel? Should I sit down and write another YA novel instead? Or do I need a different agent?
 

dgiharris

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Hi Pop,

My thoughts are that you may need a different agent. I mean, what agent 'wouldn't have trouble getting a book accepted if you sold 5000 copies yourself.

Isn't the whole point of having an agent is so you don't have to take the onus on to yourself for selling your own books.

Or put another way. If your book is good enough to sell 5000 copies on a website, then it is good enough for a publishing house to pick up. So you are taking a risk and spending time and energy (the POD route) that you should be spending on writing the next novel. Not to mention that you stack the odds against yourself because a POD book is going to be more expensive than a normal book (unless you plan to lose money).

My understanding is that a POD is about $15 - $20 per book. That is about double to triple the normal Barnes and Nobles price.

Anyways, those are my two cents.

Good luck. Find another agent.

Mel...
 

Jerry B. Flory

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Not sure what I just read into that. Did your agent just tell you to do his job for him or did he passively say your novel wasn't going anywhere? If you feel your agent is half-hearted, find out why. Is he just lazy or is there a qualm with the product he doesn't want to tell you about? Before going the route of SP I would consider the website. Is there a place there you can post your novel as an e-book and sell it for a buck or two? 5,000 copies is the goal. He said nothing about earned revenue, did he?
We also have to consider that YA may very well be the new adult fiction. As our governments, Federal state and local, continually cut funds for education, the average reading level is dropping dramatically.
I would make your agent clarify his bewildering position.
 
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I wonder what sort of agent would claim YA is one of the few genres still selling.

Uh...yeah. Does he ever go into Borders much?
 

KikiteNeko

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Not sure what I just read into that. Did your agent just tell you to do his job for him or did he passively say your novel wasn't going anywhere? If you feel your agent is half-hearted, find out why. Is he just lazy or is there a qualm with the product he doesn't want to tell you about?

I agree. Someone on the forum has said "no agent is better than a bad agent." I can't imagine an agent worth his/her salt would say that about their client's work.
 

Cyia

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It sounds like your agent is less than half heartedly invested in you. It sounds like she told you:

1. Publish your book
2. Market your book
3. If you're successful, call me... then I'll get you published.

See the flaw in that plan? Walk slowly away then run far and fast to someone who will put the effort into you that you deserve. And you can check the best seller lists to see just how many of them are adult novels.
 

popmuze

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Not sure what I just read into that. Did your agent just tell you to do his job for him or did he passively say your novel wasn't going anywhere?]
BOTH

[If you feel your agent is half-hearted, find out why. Is he just lazy] YES

[or is there a qualm with the product he doesn't want to tell you about?] CONCEPT NOT HIGH ENOUGH TO SELL INSTANTLY


[Before going the route of SP I would consider the website. Is there a place there you can post your novel as an e-book and sell it for a buck or two? 5,000 copies is the goal. He said nothing about earned revenue, did he?]I CAN LOOK INTO THIS


[We also have to consider that YA may very well be the new adult fiction. As our governments, Federal state and local, continually cut funds for education, the average reading level is dropping dramatically.] I LOVE WRITING YA...BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT MY LATEST BOOKS ARE

[I would make your agent clarify his bewildering position.]
YOU WANNA BE MY AGENT?
 

Jerry B. Flory

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No, thank you. I can't even watch Entourage without wanting to throw my shoes, pets and furniture at Jeremy Piven.
 

KikiteNeko

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Should I sit down and write another YA novel instead?


I don't know everything about the market, but I do know that YA being the only market right now is BS. What, the economy is bad, so only young adults are reading?
 

maestrowork

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Some people believe that having an agent is a surefire way of getting published. Not really. Having no agent is indeed better than having a bad agent. If an agent does not believe in your book enough to push it, to get it read, to talk it up to editors, then he or she is really wasting your time.
 

IceCreamEmpress

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I think you definitely need a new agent, popmuze. I thought you had decided on that a while back...didn't you have a thread about it? Or am I confusing you with someone else?
 

scope

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Not sure what I just read into that. Did your agent just tell you to do his job for him or did he passively say your novel wasn't going anywhere?]
BOTH

[If you feel your agent is half-hearted, find out why. Is he just lazy] YES

[or is there a qualm with the product he doesn't want to tell you about?] CONCEPT NOT HIGH ENOUGH TO SELL INSTANTLY


[Before going the route of SP I would consider the website. Is there a place there you can post your novel as an e-book and sell it for a buck or two? 5,000 copies is the goal. He said nothing about earned revenue, did he?]I CAN LOOK INTO THIS


[We also have to consider that YA may very well be the new adult fiction. As our governments, Federal state and local, continually cut funds for education, the average reading level is dropping dramatically.] I LOVE WRITING YA...BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT MY LATEST BOOKS ARE

[I would make your agent clarify his bewildering position.]
YOU WANNA BE MY AGENT?


I think you have answered your own question -- get a new agent!
 

popmuze

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Or am I confusing you with someone else?


I get that a lot. Mainly with Thomas Pynchon, Bobby Fisher and JD Salinger.

But no, you are right, I've been talking about this amongst myselves for a couple of years (ever since I signed on with this agent)
 

popmuze

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Before going the route of SP I would consider the website. Is there a place there you can post your novel as an e-book and sell it for a buck or two?


Anyone else have any comments on this aspect of my situation?
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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I believe POD/Self-Publishing is a bad idea if you want to sell fiction in today's market.

I've managed a bookstore and worked at a publishing service, so I know both sides of the situation. It's great for niche things like books of local history to sell in a small-town museum, but not for that next great best-seller.

Some people like to throw around the canard that only some percentage of sales are made in bookstores; what they miss is that the majority of non-bookstore sales still go to books that are available in bookstores. Now if you sell your book to a functioning commercial publisher (large or small) the majority of bookstores will be able to order it and put it on the shelves if they have a market. If you self pub or POD they probably won't be able to get it.

Personally I want the validation of being selected, of making it past the cut, and I want my works out where people can read them. That means commercial publication.
 

AnneMarble

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Some people like to throw around the canard that only some percentage of sales are made in bookstores; what they miss is that the majority of non-bookstore sales still go to books that are available in bookstores. Now if you sell your book to a functioning commercial publisher (large or small) the majority of bookstores will be able to order it and put it on the shelves if they have a market. If you self pub or POD they probably won't be able to get it.
Great point. Just look at the many PA authors who are frustrated because their local library couldn't order their books for their library, because of roadblocks thrown up (apt term) by PA. Distribution is hard enough for midlist authors published by large commercial publishers, but it's a Gordian knot for people trying to do it on their own.

Also, people don't understand that there are many books not intended to be sold in bookstores -- everything from specialized scientific publications to textbooks to family histories or local interest books that were created to be sold in a very limited area. (Like in the church with the blue door down off of Main Street.)
 

Diana Hignutt

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Just curious, but have you had an agent before? If so, maybe you didn't have a very good one. Mine has never dictated how my novels should be written. We sometimes sound off on ideas to decide what would be more marketable, and she warns me if my ideas are too similar to what's out there. But it's 100% up to me to write it my way, and then she will read it. The changes she's suggested have never been drastic or changed the story. She offers advice on fine-tuning, and then it's off to the editors, who make it even more saleable.

I've never felt stifled creatively or bossed around. One can be master of one's own destiny without being on one's own.

Have you sold anything yet? Just curious.

(sorry, I didn't think of this earlier)
 

KikiteNeko

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Have you sold anything yet? Just curious.

(sorry, I didn't think of this earlier)

No, just signed the contract in July, finished revisions and have been on sub since November.

ETA: more specifically, we went on sub in early August, had a few requests to resubmit after revisions. Finished the revisions and am on sub again.
 

IceCreamEmpress

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Anyone else have any comments on this aspect of my situation?

I think that there are a number of small presses who'd be delighted to work with an author who writes for a website with such a large audience.

And I think your agent is lying to you: the "oh, yeah, I sent it to her and she said 'no'" thing you referred to in another thread sounds awfully fishy to me.

Dump this agent and try finding a new agent before you go the self-pub route.
 

FOTSGreg

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Somebody else mentioned above that self-publishing can also be a good choice for certain niche markets which are, by their very nature, also self-limiting sales-wise. The number of copies of such a book that are likely to sell is well below the threshold needed by major publishers who are looking to make a profit somewhere, somehow.
 
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