The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Nope, just says that they are in the process of doing it, and if your isn't returnable right now, it will be soon. And don't take that tone with us anyway.[/QUOTE]

I also recall in the e-mail that was sent out and even on the website that this was an experiment. If it works they'll continue. If not.... I've seen this before with Hard Cover Books, NY Times Ad, Cash Advance each month for highest sales figures (one month, one person -- they were trying it out -- books you bought counted, then it just disappeared), etc... There is nothing I would like more than a returnable policy at PA, but I'm feeling that this experiment will be no different than the others. In the end you still have to buy books to sent to stores to request stocking. PA is not going to do that.

Just my thoughts on this.

For genuinely traditional publishers, it's hard to sell them a book, but once you do, their goal is to make it easy to get your book into the hands of readers.

PA has reversed this. Easy entry, almost impossible to get your book out there.

White Raven's Story

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=6679

It is your sentiment which kept me from these boards for longer than I wished. I feared being eaten alive by exactly your attitude when I was with PA. Yes, that's right, I'm an ex PA'er who was given their rights back this last July.

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If you look at some of my other posts, you will see that I went out of my way to thank a PA-er for the frank and honest appraisal of the way she was taken in.

Your attack mode does more harm than good especially since you've not a clue what it's like to be on the other side of the fence.

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Well there lies the disagreement. But judging from the replies to my post, I think most people agree with you.

In short, I take your insults quite personally.

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I have overstepped the mark, in the past, in my comments about PA authors, and been rapped on the fingers for it. I accept that.

especially since you've not a clue what it's like to be on the other side of the fence.

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OK, although I am not 100% certain that experience, on the other side of the fence, is necessarily helpful.

Which leaves me baffled as to your anger.

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I'm not angry at all. Look at my sample query letters for the subject of my book. Then you will know what makes me angry.

I'm a strong individual and would never/have never referred anyone to PA.

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Good. Unfortunately this not the case for all PA/ex-PA authors.

I will not take individual authors to task who are with PA. Why? Because I happen to know a number of them are working hard to get away from PA as they're quite aware of the criminal activities.

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I don't quite get this. Does the fact that SOME authors have formed an escape committee, mean that they should all be left alone, regardless of what they post/review?

Of course, no-one needs to be intimidated by me. I am an unpublished author, know very little about the book publishing industry, and was in the happy position of never having heard about PA 10 days ago. But I have run my own business for 20 years, and hold a firm belief that if anyone, anywhere, writes deliberately untrue statements, or is reckless as to whether they are true or not, then they deserve everything they get. Especially if other people may come to rely on their untrue statements. I will not accept, for one tenth of a second, that these liars deserve more respect, simply by virtue of being a writer.

It's just a feeling, but I suspect that many members of this forum feel that writers merit special status. That their involvement in the literary process somehow elevates them to a higher plane than the one inhabited by the rest of the human race. And because of this special status, they should never be subjected to individual attacks, even if it is demonstrated that they lie.

I will never, ever, buy into this philosophy. And if this means that I am in a minority of one, then so be it.

But I repeat (yet again) that authors who do not participate in the PA circus should be left alone.

Returns policy

John, I understand where you're coming from, but I too was a naive PA supporter for a short while.

The reason I continue to follow the anti-PA campaign is primarily for the sake of other authors who have been or may be tempted to sign a contract with this scam publisher, and also, of course, because my biggest dream is to see PA forced to close down.

It's not that I think authors should be placed on a pedestal, it's that I think all human beings are worthy of respect. We all make mistakes in life, a few of us more than others. Even spelling mistakes don't make us less human and, who knows, maybe somebody who has trouble spelling might yet surprise the world with a wonderful story one day.

I too have suffered because of the PA rah rah cheerleaders - as you can read below. In fact, it was thanks to them that I parted with over $1,000. The fact is that they were not aware of what they were doing, while PA is aware. That's why I have no quarrel with the cheerleaders, but I have a huge quarrel with PA.

Going onto another subject, which has been covered here at length already, I'm copying a post I wrote in another forum, since it's my considerations about PA's returns policy, which I think is an important topic for any forum lurkers.

My post in WritersNet (Re: PublishAmerica?):

I have learnt to read between the lines with any PublishAmerica advertising. Looking at its book returns policy, recently advertised by email and on its website, I think this is the sentence that should give us pause:

"Please bear with us as we must do this gradually, in order to enable our wholesaler Ingram to accurately activate the new status on roughly eleven thousand books that are currently in print, starting with the titles that are selling more than 40 copies in September (libraries and individuals who order more than 40 copies this month are receiving a 40 pct discount; phone orders only at 301 695 1707)."

I imagine that quite a few eager authors bought 40 copies of their own book so as to qualify for the returns policy. A great way for PublishAmerica to make a nice round sum in a hurry! (Maybe to pay Encyclopaedia Britannica for damages related to the court case this October)

I'll be interested to see if the return policy does any more than that.

I believe that when authors buy their own book from their publisher, they are in fact paying to be published. Even the 50% author discount, on an over-priced book, means a tidy profit for PublishAmerica.

Unfortunately, I was swayed by the rah rah cheerleaders on PublishAmerica's author forum, and one year ago I bought 100 copies of my book - which I ended up giving away or keeping, since shortly afterwards I realised that any promotion was going to cost me a lot more time than it was worth. Even giving it to bookshops to sell on commission meant lowering the cover price by about 50% and paying the bookshop another 50% commission. So I would have been selling at a considerable loss.

When I visited the London bookshops to see if they would stock my book, the biggest problem was the cover price (mine is £12.50 for a 192-page book, which normally should cost about £4.00-£5.00). For that reason alone my book stood little chance of sitting on a shop's bookshelf.

The second reason was that any bookshop manager can recognise a print-on-demand book, or POD. There's a huge number of POD titles on the market. Anybody who writes a book these days can get it printed-on-demand for a small fee through a vanity publisher, or even free of charge through Lulu (and, of course, through PublishAmerica). If bookshops were to stock all the POD books on the market, the sheer weight might cause them to sink to the centre of the earth. So a shopkeeper will normally avoid any POD books. However, online bookshops don't have the same problem of space - it costs them very little to include a book title on their website. So POD books remain available online, which serves little purpose for an unknown author. Who is likely to browse through the millions of POD books online to buy an over-priced one? I tend to buy books by authors I don't know when I visit a normal bookshop, but never online.

The returns policy ranked third in the list of reasons why a bookshop will not stock a PublishAmerica book.

Lucia, what if a PA author only wants to buy, say, 4 or 5 copies? What is the discount in that case?

It's not that I think authors should be placed on a pedestal, it's that I think all human beings are worthy of respect. We all make mistakes in life, a few of us more than others. Even spelling mistakes don't make us less human and, who knows, maybe somebody who has trouble spelling might yet surprise the world with a wonderful story one day.

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I agree with you. I don't like the idea of humiliating any individual, especially not on a public board. One of these days these people will wake up, even if it takes years for them to realise they have not gained fame or fortune. Looking back on what theu have said in the past will be punishment enough. They don't need my ridicule; though I have to admit to having to occasionally spitting out coffee, or banging my head against my desk, on reading the PAMB.
I think there are many intelligent PA authors who can see for themselves the silliness of some of the posts, and hopefully that causes them to think, even if not out loud.
I wonder if they ever stop to wonder WHY none of the older PA members ever post to encourage the younger ones? Surely that would be the most natural development, if they were as happy as PA claims?

aruna said:

Lucia, what if a PA author only wants to buy, say, 4 or 5 copies? What is the discount in that case?

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I believe there's NO discount until you buy at least twenty-one copies...



which, of course, is insane. You'd be better off to go to Amazon.com and pay regular price and at least get some royalties - I did the math once and it comes up to about the same with PA's inflating shipping prices.

no matter how you may lily-plate it, PA's goal isn't to sell books to anyone BUT the authors.

aruna said:

Lucia, what if a PA author only wants to buy, say, 4 or 5 copies? What is the discount in that case?

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According to my contract, the discount is 20% for orders of up to 20 copies, and 30% for more.

Edit: sorry, I previously said no discount on 4 or 5 copies, but I must have been napping! Since 4 or 5 is "up to 20 copies", it's obviously 20% discount for purchases of 4 or 5 copies (thanks, astonwest, for pointing out my mistake)

aruna said:

I wonder if they ever stop to wonder WHY none of the older PA members ever post to encourage the younger ones? Surely that would be the most natural development, if they were as happy as PA claims?

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Interestingly, it did make me wonder when I was new to the PA board. I remember starting a new thread asking for advice from "senior" members, wondering why all my questions were being answered by people who's books still hadn't been released or had only been out for a few months. That thread died a natural death through lack of responses, although it wasn't 'pulled'.

PA's spawn in The Netherlands

We know about Publish America, Publish Atlantica and the Publish Islandica but (thanks to a private message) I have learnt of Free Musketeers, a Dutch PA clone which is run NOT by Willem Meiner, but his sweet brother Lars Meiner. Yep, there's a whole brood of them.

Free Musketeers (www.freemusketeers.nl) is a strange company. The site is entirely in Dutch, so they are exclusively targeting The Netherlands and part of Belgium. I speak this language, so here is a brief description of this company's activities, based on what I can gather from the site.

They claim to be 'globetrotters', and advertise a range of business activites, one of which is publishing. The 'globetrotter' philosophy underpins all their business activities, they claim.

And yes, the publishing business model is almost identical to PA's, but with some differences.

First, they offer a choice of services. Print your book via standard POD (like Lulu), or as a 'traditional publisher' (like PA). It's just a question of personal choice because everything is accepted. And of course, they stress the no up-front costs of the latter.

They are far more blatant in their siren song ('not only do you pay nothing, but the cash registers start ringing immediately as your royalties flow in' ).

They actively encourage authors to buy their own books for resale, saying that it is a good way to make money.

They also compile best seller lists. And the 'winning' author gets their royalties doubled.

I have only just begun to sniff around, and so far I have not picked up on any active discontent on Dutch websites, message boards etc. But I suspect it is only a matter of time.

According to my contract, the discount is 20% for orders of up to 20 copies, and 30% for more. No discount at all for 4 or 5 copies.

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Amazing. And no one objects? Note to those who believe that "this is normal for all publishers, even the big boys etc etc etc:" No, it is NOT normal. I can get 1 or 51 of my own books at a 50% discount.

We know about Publish America, Publish Atlantica and the Publish Islandica but (thanks to a private message) I have learnt of Free Musketeers, a Dutch PA clone which is run NOT by Willem Meiner, but his sweet brother Lars Meiner. Yep, there's a whole brood of them.

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Very interesting, John. Keep up the detective work! (if they start a German branch I can investigate there.)

Makes you wonder if Willem is planning for the future when it becomes time to dump Larry and Miranda.

I'm not in favour of bashing PA authors, and some of them are very good. BUT, some of the writing over there, when they post samples of their *published* books, is absolutely atrocious. There's a thread right now with opening sentences to show off the ability to draw the reader in with the hook opening...and many of them are really, truly...bad. I feel sad for the PA "authors" who believe that being published by PA validates their writing ability in some way, when all they need to do is REALLY look at the quality of the worst among them. I'm so tempted to write something horrible and get on the message boards urging everyone to read my first chapter just for a reality check.

I don't know what the answer is. I think more people are being warned away from PA than are being sucked in, but there are still a lot falling into the pit regardless of the big warning signs. Someone on a writing list I'm on recently told of a very good book published by PA, and went on to say that the author is very happy with her PA experience. I suppose there has to be one having a good time there, but it's not a high percentage, I'd wager.

JohnJStephens said:

I also hold no sympathy whatsoever with authors who peddle deliberate untruths in PA's forums, book reviews etc. But it is clear that I hold a minority view on these points.

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No, I don't think you do hold a minority view; I think you just haven't been here long enough to see the range of opinions among the members here.

As for deliberate untruths, well, I don't like liars. Part of the problem is that many of the people spreading misinformation are doing so innocently, believing it's truth. I have sympathy for them. I can feel compassion for those who are trying very hard to convince themselves that all's well with PA despite the mounting evidence, because they may not be aware of what they're doing until later, when they've faced their uneasiness and done research to learn the truth. Deliberate liars, on the other hand, are [deleted by Nice-O-Matic].

NancyMehl said:

Yes, many PA authors have severe problems with grammar and spelling. Quite a few have very little idea about the mechanics or craft of writing. Most of them know very little about legitimate publishing.

All of these things may be true, but making fun of them won't encourage them to come here for help. Would you turn to someone who ridiculed you?

If AW is really committed to helping new writers and educating people about PA - then why in the world would we want to embarrass the writers we are supposed to be helping?

It doesn't mean that the things that have been said weren't true - but perhaps saying them isn't the most helpful thing to do.

Nancy

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Nancy, pointing out the fact that a person's posts (a so-called "writer's" posts) are filled with horrible grammar and spelling errors is not ridiculing him/her. There is absolutely no way to improve unless you first know that you're doing it wrong.

Saying you're doing it wrong is a BIG help to the writer who actually wants to improve his/her craft. Consider it uncovering the writer's eyes so that they can see.

Now, none of us are perfect. Yes, we all make the occassional grammar/spelling goof. But when I see posts that have no capital letters, horrible word choice, numerous misspellings, that doesn't say "ooppss, a boo-boo" to me. That says person with limited English skills - and I'm sorry, but language is the author's tool, the author's paint used to create. And you do not create a good story without first mastering the tools you need.

Imagine a school teacher who doesn't point out a student's errors because it would be "mean, harmful, not helpful." Does that make any sense? No one learns anything until their mistakes are (respectfully) pointed out.

Actually, I think that does point to a mind-set of many of the PA authors. (Many. Not all. Definately not all.) They don't want editors because they don't want to be told how to "do it." They don't want to go with commercial publishers because they don't want their story "meddled with."

PA plays into the deception that this attitude is the proper one for a writer. PA is wonderful because they "love the writer and his story just as they are." They don't need to do any work on the story. It's perfect as is.

That's a big lie, but it's a powerful one. It says to the writer, you ARE fabulous, and those people who rejected you in the past just have no clue how incredibly talented you are. (Sometimes they do get a gem, and as many have said here before, that's even a bigger crime, because it's such a waste.)

Pointing out mistakes made by authors is a good thing. If the writers can't take that, then they need to leave the "building" (of writing) immediately. In this business, everything you do is held up for close scrutiny by multiple people, including editors, reviewers, and readers. If the writers can't "take it" when someone points out they can't spell for beans, then they'll never make it.

They don't have to turn here for help. But they have to be shaken into wakefulness so that they at least know that they NEED help.

Sometimes the best friend you have is the one who actually cares enough about you to say, "Hey, you're making an as* out of yourself." Or "Hey, there's toilet paper stuck to your shoe and you look like an idiot."

Susan G.

mreddin said:

The entire structure of PA's website should serve as a warning sign, if publishers advertise for authors, then the authors are likely to be the sole target market of that publisher.

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Mike, that's an important point. Companies advertise to the segment of the population they're making money from. Go to Random House's website, or Tor's, or St. Martin's, or that of any respectable commercial publisher, and you'll see that they're focused on advertising books to readers. You have to search for submission guidelines, if they're even on the site at all. When a publisher's advertising is geared toward authors, you can bet that's who they're making their money from.

Susan Gable said:

Nancy, pointing out the fact that a person's posts (a so-called "writer's" posts) are filled with horrible grammar and spelling errors is not ridiculing him/her. There is absolutely no way to improve unless you first know that you're doing it wrong.

Susan G.

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It's all a matter not of WHAT is correced, but HOW, and also WHERE. We were speaking of making fun of such posts here on AW, and I think that's wrong. Yes, people do need to be shown their mistakes, but by the time they get on to the PAMB it's too late - their books are already in production!
The best way, I believe, would be for other PA authors to mail the writers of such diabliocal posts privately and point out what they are doing. I believe Bufty did that to Engrose right here, and her posts improved dramatically after that; that is genuine help. Ridicule, on the other hand, breeds resentment.

Susan

I totally agree w/ pointing out grammar/spelling errors and I don't see that as ridicule. It's the definition of corrective criticism. Far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to grow as a writer w/o it. If someone tells me I need more/less character description, that's fine too. Anything that falls into improving my/anyone's craft is great.

Name calling is out of bounds and cruel. Calling PA'ers morons and idiots is nasty. Hurling insults accomplishes nothing. It has the opposite effect; it pushes people away. Condescension is abusive. And I had more than my share while under PA's boot heel.

There are those who honestly believe PA is the greatest thing since the cave man discovered fire. With them, I'm not going to waste my breath. I want to reach the authors out there who are on the fence for a variety of reasons. I want to be sure they hear my story and experience w/PA. I want them to know there is life after PA-it's not the end of the line. Not for everyone anyway.

What struck me the hardest was when I realized how well my book would have done w/ a real publisher. Cripes, it would have gone through an educated editor as opposed to spell check. And yet, in spite of the serious roadblocks, it found a niche, a readership. Blows my mind!! W/ the return of rights, I've been given a phenomenal opportunity. I've edited the daylights out of it and in the process have become incredibly embarrassed w/ it being out there in its present condition. In the last couple of years, thank God I've grown as a writer. And since being here, I've been the recipient of Jenna's phenomenal guidance and friendship. If that had not been the case, God knows where I'd be now.

aruna said:

It's all a matter not of WHAT is correced, but HOW, and also WHERE. We were speaking of making fun of such posts here on AW, and I think that's wrong. Yes, people do need to be shown their mistakes, but by the time they get on to the PAMB it's too late - their books are already in production! The best way, I believe, would be for other PA authors to mail the writers of such diabliocal posts privately and point out what they are doing. I believe Bufty did that to Engrose right here, and her posts improved dramatically after that; that is genuine help. Ridicule, on the other hand, breeds resentment.

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Better late than never to learn that you need to improve your skills. Again, I will say that public "correction" is something the writer needs to become accustomed to - reviews are public, and they're not all roses and accolades. There are reader boards out there on in the Internet where readers may slice and dice your book. That's public.

Does it hurt? Hell, yes. But that's part of being a writer. You need a thick skin in this line of work.

Also, public discussion of what makes a decent writer/decent story allows not just the individual to benefit, but others who are lurking nearby. The Share Your Work forum here benefits not just the people willing to put themselves out there and post their work for public critique, but it also benefits the person who's not ready for that yet because they can read the work, read the critiques, and learn from them. That doesn't happen if the critique is done in private email. (Kudos to the folks who post in that forum, BTW.)

So again, I'll say writers who can't take their public "chops" need to either learn to deal with it or choose another career, because this one is going to shred them to pieces. It's a tough, sometimes harsh business.

Susan G.

PS - Name calling and ridicule is out of bounds, although there really are times when I want to shake people and tell them to wake up and smell the coffee. We're only human, and we get frustrated from time to time.

Susan Gable said:

Again, I will say that public "correction" is something the writer needs to become accustomed to - reviews are public, and they're not all roses and accolades. There are reader boards out there on in the Internet where readers may slice and dice your book. That's public.

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PA writers cannot simultaneously demand to be treated like Real Published Authors and to be granted immunity from criticism and correction.

Susan Gable said:

Also, public discussion of what makes a decent writer/decent story allows not just the individual to benefit, but others who are lurking nearby. The Share Your Work forum here benefits not just the people willing to put themselves out there and post their work for public critique, but it also benefits the person who's not ready for that yet because they can read the work, read the critiques, and learn from them. That doesn't happen if the critique is done in private email. (Kudos to the folks who post in that forum, BTW.)


.

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I agree -but that should come voluntarily. "Share your work" is brilliant. But some - many - are just not ready to have their words critiqued in public. I know that many, many writers are terribly shy at first - and they may be GOOD writers even. Having their words torn apart before they have asked for it to be done can put them off writing forever. Being shy and insecure about one's work at first is quite a common thing. Sure, you need to develop a tough skin if you're going to be a writer; but that comes at its own pace, at its own time. Hell, when I first began writing I was so shy about it, so self-conscious, I didn't even want a by-line! (For my first articles, back when I was 19)

aruna said:

I agree -but that should come voluntarily. "Share your work" is brilliant. But some - many - are just not ready to have their words critiqued in public.

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But PA authors published their work (well, printed it for public consumption, anyway). Published work is fair game for critique: You've put it in the public eye for public response. When you do that, you have to take what comes of it, positive and negative. Authors don't get to say to the public, "Here's my stuff. Now, everybody, be nice to me or it'll hurt my feelings!"

The reading public doesn't care if a writer has or hasn't asked for criticism. The reading public is going to give it anyway.

Even though most of us are writers (I suspect a few non-writers visit this site for entertainment), we are still members of the reading public and entitled to offer criticism along with the rest of the reading public.

While public criticism may sting the most, it's also the most effective. Consequently, writers must take notice of their shortcomings or they will wither away because the public will have no interest in them. Likewise, they need to form that thick skin fast because the public isn't going to wait for that to develop before the author becomes fair game. That announcement of target availability comes the moment any author puts his words before the public's eyes. Any other belief to the contrary is simply unreasonable. So, in effect, authors do ask for criticism the moment they put forth their first published words. It is that criticism that determines whether you or anyone else, as an author, will succeed.

There's a writer on the PA board who is thrilled that PA is interested in her third book based on a synopsis. She speaks exactly as I would if and when my agent makes a sale. I don't believe in ridiculing either, but what am I to make of this?

Responders to this post are sending her kudos for this good fortune.

It's a third book and she's acting surprised and delighted? I'm sorry, but where's a connection to the real world here? Is this denial, delusion or what?

Sad. Why should it be denial or delusion? There are no grounds whatsoever here for ridicule. Do remember that she probably has no reason to doubt what she believes. It would only take one friendly and sensitively worded post to try and alert her or at least start an exchange. I tried but I don't have a URL so my entry was rejected.

latichever said:

There's a writer on the PA board who is thrilled that PA is interested in her third book based on a synopsis. She speaks exactly as I would if and when my agent makes a sale. I don't believe in ridiculing either, but what am I to make of this?

Responders to this post are sending her kudos for this good fortune.

It's a third book and she's acting surprised and delighted? I'm sorry, but where's a connection to the real world here? Is this denial, delusion or what?

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