Guilty pleasures in SFF cliches

MattW · Sep 15, 2009

Organized underworld that is quite tidy, regulated, and peaceful (aside from beatings, assassination, muggings, etc)

Salis · Sep 15, 2009

SPMiller said:
Villain-Protagonists are wonderful to read about, especially if they don't brood about their problems and just get on with life.

Plain old antiheroes are better, being mixes of both noble and ignoble qualities, but I'd much rather read a villain-protagonist than a standard fantasy ueberhero any day of the week.

The only problem I have with "heroic" anti-heroes is they get a little mopey. I mean, Elric is definitely not your stereotypical "Going to sit around and weep all day" guy, he just gets on with it, but the whole Greek Tragedy thing going on is still a bit much at the end of the day.

I really like antiheroes (or villains!) who persist, do their shit, and generally enjoy life. Wish fulfillment, probably.

I especially like antiheroes where it is established very clearly why they became nasty, without then falling into the trap of "well, of course he'll be redeemed later on in the series!".

Aggy B. · Sep 15, 2009

Antiheroes.

Space opera.

Uncompromising villains. I must admit to being a big fan of "ruthless and committed". Even if it means going a little more stereotypical and not showing as much of the "if only he'd been breast-fed" sympathy that's become such a requirement for villains these days.

And weird/borderline ugly kids who turn out to be heroes while the pretty people turn out to be villains.

Salis · Sep 15, 2009

Aggy B. said:
Uncompromising villains. I must admit to being a big fan of "ruthless and committed". Even if it means going a little more stereotypical and not showing as much of the "if only he'd been breast-fed" sympathy that's become such a requirement for villains these days.

Pretty much this. I like villains who are unrepentant--to the end. Here's the thing: unless it's an ego trip, no one thinks they're evil. People don't wake up in the morning and say, "Damn, I love being a villain!". I really hate villains who do do that, it just feels so fake, except in very extreme situations (i.e, they are literally a personification of evil, and can admit it).

I like books that take that sort of thing and turn it around, because ultimately, "evil" means "someone who is not on our side".

brutus · Sep 17, 2009

MGraybosch · Sep 17, 2009

Salis said:
Pretty much this. I like villains who are unrepentant--to the end. Here's the thing: unless it's an ego trip, no one thinks they're evil.

Are you telling me that a sufficiently intelligent villain can't take a look at what he's done and understand that others might see his actions as evil, even though he himself remains firm in his belief that he did what he did for a good or even noble cause? If that's the case, then I'm screwed because my entire characterization of Imaginos in Starbreaker depends in him knowing that what he has done is wrong and that he will have to pay a dire price for his actions.

Salis · Sep 17, 2009

MGraybosch said:
Are you telling me that a sufficiently intelligent villain can't take a look at what he's done and understand that others might see his actions as evil, even though he himself remains firm in his belief that he did what he did for a good or even noble cause? If that's the case, then I'm screwed because my entire characterization of Imaginos in Starbreaker depends in him knowing that what he has done is wrong and that he will have to pay a dire price for his actions.

Sure, but like you said, he won't say he's evil, or entertain notions like that.

Also, it's worth mentioning that people are actually pretty emotional about this kind of thing. Even if part of them realizes that other people might find what they're doing "evil", they may hotly deny it, because it's insulting to them.

There's a vast difference between "what I am doing is not morally right, but it serves a morally right purpose" and "BOY HOWDY I'M EVIL".

MGraybosch · Sep 17, 2009

Salis said:
Also, it's worth mentioning that people are actually pretty emotional about this kind of thing. Even if part of them realizes that other people might find what they're doing "evil", they may hotly deny it, because it's insulting to them.

Perhaps I have been unclear. He himself knows that what he is doing is wrong, but has consciously chosen ignoble means to advance what he deems to be a noble end. He expects to pay for his crimes at the end, and wants to be destroyed for what he has done.

If you called Imaginos "evil", he would nod and agree with you.

MGraybosch · Sep 17, 2009

Chasing the Horizon said:
Badass warrior women with short dresses, long swords, and sharp tongues. I never see characters like this actually done well, though.

Are you saying that you haven't seen Kill Bill? Oh, wait: neither The Bride nor O-Ren Ishii wear short skirts.

Nivarion · Sep 18, 2009

Cradling your mentors head as he gives you his last words.

I think I have a half dozen the the first one alone.

Brutal Mustang · Sep 19, 2009

alaskamatt17 said:
I'm a big fan of the overused fantasy protagonist who, orphaned at an early age by some horrible disaster managed to overcome all odds and become a hero after finding out they're the descendant of some great warrior or kind of the past. I don't feel guilty about it, though. It's a cliche because so many people like it, after all.

Yep. The reason Chosen One stories are so popular is because they fulfill a deep human fantasy of being extra-special. Me? I fantasize that my dad is a long lost galactic prince, and that as his oldest non-drug addicted child, I will inherit the galaxy.

GregB · Sep 23, 2009

MGraybosch said:
Are you telling me that a sufficiently intelligent villain can't take a look at what he's done and understand that others might see his actions as evil, even though he himself remains firm in his belief that he did what he did for a good or even noble cause? If that's the case, then I'm screwed because my entire characterization of Imaginos in Starbreaker depends in him knowing that what he has done is wrong and that he will have to pay a dire price for his actions.

"We all have it coming, Kid."
-- Will Munny, Unforgiven

"But that shit ain't the truth. The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd."
-- Jules, Pulp Fiction

I'm all about the antihero who can be repentant without getting all emo about it. And he still has to be the baddest motherfucker in the room, even when he's repentant. That's important, too.

triceretops · Sep 23, 2009

I think you might have something there, Izz. I really do. I'm numb that I didn't think of it. It wreaks of high concept.

Tri

Izz · Sep 23, 2009

triceretops said:
It wreaks of high concept.

oooh, sounds complicated

*trots off to find out what high concept is*

ETA: Ah, high concept is an idea that can be stated in few words and is easily understandable. Kewl.

dgiharris · Sep 24, 2009

As far as Sci-Fi goes.

I absolutely love any and all first contact stories. Can't get enough of them. Couple first contact with an Earth Invasion and you've got me.

Space Operas come in a close second.

As far as Fantasy goes, i'm a complete sucker for the coming into his powers type stories. In particular, following the orphan, farm boy(girl), etc as he(she) is mentored into a bad ass warrior or sorceror(ess).

But the challenge is that i've read so many of these types of stories (especially the fantasy) that its hard to now find a good one.

As for writing these stories. I have a few books swirling around in my head, but as

Izz said, i'm waiting until my skill level is such to do those ideas justice.

Mel...

lovesaphira · Sep 24, 2009

Salis said:
People don't wake up in the morning and say, "Damn, I love being a villain!". I really hate villains who do do that, it just feels so fake, except in very extreme situations (i.e, they are literally a personification of evil, and can admit it).

hehe, if i read a book and it had a scene with a villain waking up and saying "damn, i love being evil" i would laugh. i would find it the most hilarious thing ever.

Moving on, hehe

I am a sucker for the really really evil villains that don't seem to have a motive for what they do. They just do. lol. Granted, i try to make my villains a bit more 3 dimensional. But sometimes its just fun to read a book where the villain is just...well...evil. mwahahahaha. lol

Guilty pleasures in SFF cliches

MattW

Company Man

Salis

You Lie!

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

Salis

You Lie!

brutus

MGraybosch

Lunch Break Novelist

Salis

You Lie!

MGraybosch

Lunch Break Novelist

MGraybosch

Lunch Break Novelist

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

Brutal Mustang

Loves interplanetary chaos.

GregB

practical experience, FTW

triceretops

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic

dgiharris

Disgruntled Scientist

lovesaphira

'Here's my card'