[Agent] Mathew Ferguson

mathewferguson said:

Summary of my position: quit the agent worship.

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Respectfully, seeing as how most/many of us aspire to be published by a large publishing house that won't look at you without an agent, I will happily worship at the alter of agenty goodness.

mathewferguson said:

I will close with the summary again: Don't worship agents.

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Then it's okay if I don't worship you.

Saskatoonistan said:

Respectfully, seeing as how most/many of us aspire to be published by a large publishing house that won't look at you without an agent, I will happily worship at the alter of agenty goodness.

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Naw, you don't worship your agent. You appreciate their skill, insight, advice, and hard work.

mathewferguson said:

Writer starts putting up a page every three days to build a reading audience. Writer releases chapters on torrents, targetting keywords to draw more readers. Writer puts up pay gateway to buy rest of book OR continues to put book up for free. This activity (only a small sample of things to do) builds a reading audience and may also translate into money. Now agent starts shopping book around and it travels with "5000 downloads" attached to it. It travels with quotes from people who have read the book. It travels with the knowledge that it already has an established audience. It isn't some untested piece of work. This sells a manuscript.

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Oh goody, it's a variation of the content-site idea. Again.

Mathew, people simply don't read, or go looking for exiting new stuff to read, in this way. You'll just be creating cyberslush and no one wants to read slush. At least not twice.

priceless1 said:

Um, I don't worship agents, Mat. I work with them. Where do you see worship in a business arrangement? They have something to sell; I am in the market to buy. I'm confused by your choice of words.


Maybe that's how it is in Australia, but that isn't how is in the US. You are, quite simply, very mistaken.


Oh.
Dear.
God.
I'm speechless. Do you know how many times people have come up with this "brave new idea" only to be laughed off the map? No, no, nevermind...this has all gotten too silly. Mat, good luck to you. As I said before, if you're truly that good, we should see some sales in about six months - and I will happily stand on my desk and sing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener" while standing on one foot.

I have serious doubts about your abilities to get the job done, and the more you talk about your "innovative" ideas, the more I ache for your clients.

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Priceless1 you said: "All the agents I know work as many horrible hours as I do; almost 24/7." This is agent worship. Are you seriously telling me you believe what all those agents have told you? Do you really truly believe they work "almost 24/7"?

You simply cannot believe that. They do not work 24/7 or anywhere near it. This is pure exaggeration and part of the supremely foolish agent worship cult. If you don't worship them then why would you say something that is clearly not true?

I'm sorry you think I'm mistaken but even in the US the churn in editors continues apace.

I'm not coming up with some "brave new idea". I'm not advocating self-publishing or eBook publishing but neither am I blind to where money is available.

I would fully expect a non-fiction book on ... fitness ... to have an accompanying website. I wouldn't even bother attempting to sell such a book without an established audience.

You are completely stuck in the old world where the idea of releasing a chapter sample online is some brave new idea that will utterly fail. Given that you have a website and a blog I can't understand how you are so dismissive of online activity.

And you are a member of IndieBound and also the Independent Book Publishers Association! How can you be ignorant of the possibilities the web offers for sales, promotion, marketing and selling manuscripts?

Another question for you: to promote a published books, would you make a YouTube book trailer? Or is that a "innovative" idea that makes you "ache"?

mathewferguson said:

Writer starts putting up a page every three days to build a reading audience.

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I've read a lot of books, but I can't ever recall coming across this sort of strategy. Could you give me any examples of writers who have done this (i.e. putting up a page every three days) and have successfully sold their books to commercial publishers?

Personally, I don't surf the web looking for original fiction, and I don't think I'd be interested in getting just a page every three days.

It travels with the knowledge that it already has an established audience.

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But that established audience has already read the book, so are they likely to buy a copy? There's a lot of material which I'll read for free, but not if I have to fork out for it.

Hi Eirin - sorry, the quoting seems to continue to paste in a different post --

Oh goody, it's a variation of the content-site idea. Again.

Mathew, people simply don't read, or go looking for exiting new stuff to read, in this way. You'll just be creating cyberslush and no one wants to read slush. At least not twice.
*
I'll use an example from Australia: New MacDonald's Farm. It's a children's television show on here and it has an accompanying licensing programme. It started as a pretty terrible looking website. The creator hired some writers to write 1000 -1500 word stories based around the characters Henry the Horse, Percy the Pig, etc. Not the most innovative thing I've ever seen.

They used their website to start drawing traffic. Children were coming to the site and downloading colouring sheets and the like. They took their traffic figures and detailed proof of market to Beyond Entertainment who then transformed it into a television show. Once on television along came the publishing program and out came the books.

This idea is not new or unusual at all. There are quite a few people heading out into this space and working on building an online presence to increase the likelihood of publishing deals and the like.

Of course this is always negatively characterised as a variation of the content-site idea. Again.

On another children's property - look at The Wiggles. Started as a school project, cassettes being sold in small venues and off they went.

Emily the Strange - sticker, t-shirt, gift books, graphic novels, massive success.

Scary Girl - t-shirts, gift books, online game, publishing program.

Cory Doctorow - ebooks, blogging, print publication.

Bridget Jones's Diary: newspaper column transformed into novelisation.

Sex in the City: newspaper column, book, tv series, film.

The idea that it goes write book -> agent -> publishing deal or write book -> publishing deal -> agent is not the standard route.

I say that any writer who doesn't have a website for their material is doing themselves a great disservice.

Queen of Swords said:

I've read a lot of books, but I can't ever recall coming across this sort of strategy. Could you give me any examples of writers who have done this (i.e. putting up a page every three days) and have successfully sold their books to commercial publishers?

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Recently, I've seen posts from several authors who are soliciting donations for novels-in-progress. Once they reach a certain goal, they post the next chapter. Mostly these are authors with an established fan base.

still alive said:

Let me posit this: In a case such as mine, where I want a non-US publisher for one book, why is Mat poison oak?

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A useful agent has sold books that you've heard of.

I would just like to opine that any agent who would go to a site full of writers who are looking for agents wouldn't dream of behaving in an aggressive or condescending fashion to his potential clients.

That's just good, old-fashioned business sense and regardless of all the bells and whistles of the modern age, it just wouldn't make sense. Not only would it raise serious red flags, but might also dissuade those writers from considering him when they look for representation.

*shrug* I could be wrong, of course. But I seriously doubt it.

Queen of Swords said:

I've read a lot of books, but I can't ever recall coming across this sort of strategy. Could you give me any examples of writers who have done this (i.e. putting up a page every three days) and have successfully sold their books to commercial publishers?

Personally, I don't surf the web looking for original fiction, and I don't think I'd be interested in getting just a page every three days.



But that established audience has already read the book, so are they likely to buy a copy? There's a lot of material which I'll read for free, but not if I have to fork out for it.

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Hi - Max Barry has done it recently http://www.maxbarry.com/ with Machine Man http://www.maxbarry.com/machineman/

Here is his post announcing the deal: http://www.maxbarry.com/2009/08/12/news.html

I'm sure of course that this will bring up the howl of "But he was already a published author!". Yes, he is a published author. No, it doesn't make a difference. It is about the audience and the proof of audience.

eqb said:

Then it's okay if I don't worship you.

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Absolutely!

A few strewn rose petals wouldn't go astray though ...

eqb said:

Recently, I've seen posts from several authors who are soliciting donations for novels-in-progress. Once they reach a certain goal, they post the next chapter. Mostly these are authors with an established fan base.

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Oh yes, Lawrence Watt-Evans did that - but he's Lawrence Watt-Evans. And I don't recall him posting a page every three days. As a reader, that wouldn't work for me.

mathewferguson said:

Summary of my position: quit the agent worship.

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Mat, you've already badly misused the term "special pleading." Please look up and understand the term "straw man."

To help you out, here are a couple of blog posts you should read. Please note the dates; these are not new.

On the Getting of Agents

Slushkiller

mathewferguson said:

I'm sure of course that this will bring up the howl of "But he was already a published author!".

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I think what you characterize as a "howl" is a reasonable objection, so we probably don't have any common ground to continue this. Thanks for your time.

mscelina said:

I would just like to opine that any agent who would go to a site full of writers who are looking for agents wouldn't dream of behaving in an aggressive or condescending fashion to his potential clients.

That's just good, old-fashioned business sense and regardless of all the bells and whistles of the modern age, it just wouldn't make sense. Not only would it raise serious red flags, but might also dissuade those writers from considering him when they look for representation.

*shrug* I could be wrong, of course. But I seriously doubt it.

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I like people to have the courage to voice their convictions ...

I don't mind a bit of online fire from time to time. You might notice that I always use my own name when I'm online - that's because I stand by what I say. Don't worship agents. No, they don't work 24/7. No, your query letter isn't really important. Yes, having a website is a great idea.

I'm very well aware that this position brings out those who are dedicated to defending the mythology. After all, what agent would admit that there are easy sales? It was a call, a contract and a chunk of cash and all for hardly any effort. We know those deals exist ... but no one will talk about them.

Queen of Swords said:

Oh yes, Lawrence Watt-Evans did that - but he's Lawrence Watt-Evans. And I don't recall him posting a page every three days. As a reader, that wouldn't work for me.

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Right. He posted a first draft of each chapter. He did end up selling the novel to a small press. Anyone who contributed got a free copy, iirc. But as you said, he's LWE. He has a sizable fan base.

Several others are doing that/have done that recently to raise cash. All of them have fans and they also had numerous friends to help spread the word online.

Unknown writers trying this would not do well, imo.

James D. Macdonald said:

Mat, you've already badly misused the term "special pleading." Please look up and understand the term "straw man."

To help you out, here are a couple of blog posts you should read. Please note the dates; these are not new.

On the Getting of Agents

Slushkiller

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Hi James - I do understand the term "straw man". When someone writes "agents work almost 24/7" and then I write "agents do not work superhuman hours" I am not constructing a straw man. I am giving an accurate representation of their position. If someone wrote "agents work long hours" and I wrote "agents do not work 24/7!" then yes, I would be constructing a straw man and the characterisation is justified.

The special pleading usage was correct. Being in Australia was used as the special case to refute what I claimed.

The "On the Getting of Agents" is a great post. I love the section on Gormless agents. I clearly don't agree on the section about real agents requiring the apprenticeship process. As an in-house editor with a very broad job description I did everything an agent does, including writing contracts.

The Australian Literary Agents' Association has a similar trade-barrier kind of clause in their membership section. You can't join unless you've been an agent for three years or have negotiated 10 contracts or have earned $250K in commission in a two-year period. Out in the world they push hard on "don't work with anyone who isn't listed as a member of our site" angle. This ends up in a bit of a catch-22 situation: can't join until I've made deals, can't make deals because that association warns off all potential clients from anyone who has opened a new business ...

It was a great move from the agencies who set up the association: in one move they put themselves in the trusted group and put anyone else in the not-to-be-trusted group.

Queen of Swords said:

Oh yes, Lawrence Watt-Evans did that - but he's Lawrence Watt-Evans. And I don't recall him posting a page every three days. As a reader, that wouldn't work for me.

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Hi - check out what Cory Doctorow has to say about this: http://www.locusmag.com/Perspectives/2009/09/cory-doctorow-special-pleading.html

The sales are not because the author is an established name.

eqb said:

But as you said, he's LWE. He has a sizable fan base... Unknown writers trying this would not do well, imo.

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Exactly. Established writers are likely to do better, sales-wise, than unknown writers for that reason.

Matt: I'd be glad to sign with an Australian agent. I've already been "this close" to an agent who resides in Australia, but she doesn't have the time to work with me on needed changes. It would be nice to know what she thinks needs to be changed, but she was not moved to inform me with details.

In any case, would you take a US author to work through the Aussie publication system? I'm game. Let us know, mate! A couple of my fav authors are Aussie. Hal Spacejock is a kick.

How will you get people (editors and/or the reading public) to notice another page of text on the internet? It's not as if there's a paucity as it is. How will you create visibility?
How will you even entice editors to go looking in the first place?

I'm an avid reader and I'm perfectly willing to spend quite a bit of money on books. I'm far from alone in this, nor do I think my book-buying pattern is unique. I shop online if I'm acquainted with the author or have heard good things about a specific book, in B&M if I want to browse. The keyword here is selection.
I do find and enjoy free stuff on the net, but I don't have the time to scour cyberspace for good reading material, and I certainly can't be bothered to monitor torrent sites for random uploads from hopeful new authors. Bookstores function as my gatekeepers.

Editors in general don't appear to be inclined to spend their days online looking for new writers either. They, too, have gatekeepers.

mathewferguson said:

Hi - check out what Cory Doctorow has to say about this: http://www.locusmag.com/Perspectives/2009/09/cory-doctorow-special-pleading.html

The sales are not because the author is an established name.

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Yes, I've read that article.

There's a difference between the route Cory took and what you described, however. Cory first sold the novel to a commercial publisher, then released it electronically. Baen has an entire program doing just that with their Free Library. Your post seemed to imply a different approach--releasing the book in increments online, *then* approaching a commercial publisher.

How do you propose to get the same attention for new writers, ones who don't have the same fan base or online presence?

It all boils down to this: why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? That's why e-published authors have to be so vigilant with their work. Sites that are selling pirated copies of published works are cutting into their sales. Why would incrementally e-publishing sections of a book be any different?

There's a difference between using excerpts as hooks for your published work and tossing the whole thing out onto the internet for free and unmonitored consumption.

Marva said:

Matt: I'd be glad to sign with an Australian agent. I've already been "this close" to an agent who resides in Australia, but she doesn't have the time to work with me on needed changes. It would be nice to know what she thinks needs to be changed, but she was not moved to inform me with details.

In any case, would you take a US author to work through the Aussie publication system? I'm game. Let us know, mate! A couple of my fav authors are Aussie. Hal Spacejock is a kick.

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A good story that I think is publishable is the only entry ticket I need to see!

It is a little strange to work with people you never see face-to-face. I once worked with an illustrator for four months before finally meeting her. We were both a little ... that's what you look like?