To Vaccinate or not to Vaccinate:

I can't remember who said it a week or so ago (I think it was TerzaRima, if not my apologies) but I liked this analogy, and it kind of sums up my feelings on vaccinations:

Seatbelts hurt/kill people from time to time but more often than not they save lives...vaccinations are the same.

Strep can be dangerous, but it is often self-limiting. I've had it numerous times where I've not taken antibiotics and was fine within a week.

And interesting side note, even with the number of non or selective vaxxers in the US. Today there are only about 50 cases of measles a year reported in the United States, and most of these originate outside the country.

swhibs123, don't you have to have certain shots to travel in certain countries? (Or maybe its just recommended? I'm not really sure?)

Medievalist said:

This is one of the smartest things I've read about vaccines, from our own "Uncle Jim" Macdonald, who, when he isn't authoring really good books, is an EMT.

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Thank you for sharing that article. He did an excellent job and the accompaning photes and extra information drove home how awful these things are.

swhibs123 said:

the above fact is the result of herd immunity. everyone around you is vaccinated so you are benefiting from that. it's why some people think non-vaxers are selfish

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This is exactly it. Not everyone responds like they are supposed to to vaccinations, they don't properly develop the antibodies and those antibodies don't stay there forever, sometimes they do wear off and you need a booster. That's the case when you see those outbreaks and even some people who were vaccinated get sick. It's because the herd immunity was broken by non-vaxxers and it put the whole community at risk.

swhibs123 said:

the above fact is the result of herd immunity. everyone around you is vaccinated so you are benefiting from that. it's why some people think non-vaxers are selfish

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And in the case of CP you have things like this to contradict that theory.

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - During an outbreak of chickenpox in Minnesota in the fall of 2002, more than half the children who became infected had been immunized with the varicella vaccine, according to a new report.

The primary case in the outbreak was a vaccinated 6-year-old boy. The investigators found that 25 percent of vaccinated children came down with chickenpox, as did 56 percent of unvaccinated students; among those with a history of varicella, the infection rate was 6 percent. Lee's group estimates that the effectiveness of the vaccine in warding off infection was 56 percent. However, immunized children did have fewer lesions, less fever, and fewer sick days than their non-immunized kids. The risk of catching chickenpox was more than two-fold higher for those vaccinated 4 or more years before the outbreak, compared with those vaccinated more recently -- so protection wanes over time
In this case, the vaccinations alone only prevented the spread by about 50%. So in this case, the herb immunity did little to prevent the spread.

(I am using CP for an example. As I said before, Measles, mumps, polio fall under a different category and I'm pretty sure you don't take a chance of getting them after you are vaccinated)[/I][/I]


Varivax, the varicella vaccine manufactured by Merck, was approved by the FDA in 1995. The latest Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reports estimate that 75 percent of the nation's children have been vaccinated with it. They credit the vaccine with a significant statistical drop in the number of chickenpox cases reported, and they have stacks of studies to back up their claim. From 1987 to 1997, the reported national incidence of chickenpox decreased 58 percent. 2 In fact, doctors are no longer required to report chickenpox cases to local and state health departments-which just might have some influence on optimistically low chickenpox statistics.

"The decrease from 1987 to 1997 corresponded with decreases in the number of states reporting to NNDSS and the completeness of reporting," admits the CDC. Areas reporting dropped from 46 states and DC in 1972 to 20 states in 1997. What declined was the reporting, not the incidence of chickenpox. Today, the CDC actively watches only three US sites for varicella: West Philadelphia , Pennsylvania ; Travis County, Texas; and Antelope Valley , Los Angeles County , California. 3

Two years after vaccine licensure, in the 14 states that maintained continuous reporting of varicella, the incidence remained completely unchanged, at 107.0 cases per 100,000 population. (The national incidence, however, was reported by the CDC as dropping to 36.9. 4 )

While the CDC estimates the vaccine to be 86 percent effective in children, a 2001 CDC study showed that that effectiveness might actually be as low as 40 percent. 5 But authorities at Maryland's Takoma Park Elementary School might quarrel even with that. There, reportedly, 12 of the 16 cases of a recent chickenpox outbreak involved children who had already been vaccinated. 6

Moreover, the CDC's Jane Seward, MD; Karin Galil, MD, MPH; and Anne A. Gershon, MD, director of the infectious disease division at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, found further cause for concern about the vaccine in a recent outbreak of chickenpox at a Concord, New Hampshire daycare center. 7 It began with a child who had been vaccinated, contradicting the theory that "breakthrough" cases-i.e., children who develop true chickenpox despite having been vaccinated-are not contagious. Studies from Cedars-Sinai Medical Center also refute the idea that vaccine-borne varicella is not contagious. 8-10

Nor, perhaps, is the vaccine as safe as advertised. A 2000 article in the Journal of the American Medical Association disclosed a wealth of reports made by doctors and parents to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). "This FDA report confirms our concern that the chickenpox vaccine may be more reactive than anticipated in individuals with both known and unknown biological high risk factors," said Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC). 11

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YAwriter72 said:

In this case, the vaccinations alone only prevented the spread by about 50%. So in this case, the herb immunity did little to prevent the spread.

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Maybe they used the wrong herb.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

YAwriter72 said:

FTR I selectively vaxxed my kids. And ftr, it was done in conjunction with many discussions with my pediatrician also. So in *my* case, I did make an informed decision ALONG WITH my Dr.

Its funny, everyone clamours about the chicken pox vaccine and the "pox parties" when over half the kids in my kids school who HAD the vaccine got the chicken pox anyway. Yeah, thats success for you. And now we find out there has to be lifelong booster shots cause everyone knows that getting them as an adult is a hundred times more dangerous. My kids who are not vaxxed against CP did not get it, despite the fact that it went around school 3 times. (Or their case was so mild, slight fever, no spots) that it wasn't recognized. I had CP as a baby, and you know what, I lived and now am immune, funny how that works.

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Part of the reason vaccination works is herd immunity. If people don't vax the virus survives and the chance of vaccination fails. So yes there is very good reason for people who vaccinate to "clamour about" chicken pox parties. And parent who take their sick with chicken pox kid to the grocery store to expose as many strangers as they can.

YAwriter72 said:

And in the case of CP you have things like this to contradict that theory.

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - During an outbreak of chickenpox in Minnesota in the fall of 2002, more than half the children who became infected had been immunized with the varicella vaccine, according to a new report.

The primary case in the outbreak was a vaccinated 6-year-old boy. The investigators found that 25 percent of vaccinated children came down with chickenpox, as did 56 percent of unvaccinated students; among those with a history of varicella, the infection rate was 6 percent. Lee's group estimates that the effectiveness of the vaccine in warding off infection was 56 percent. However, immunized children did have fewer lesions, less fever, and fewer sick days than their non-immunized kids. The risk of catching chickenpox was more than two-fold higher for those vaccinated 4 or more years before the outbreak, compared with those vaccinated more recently -- so protection wanes over time

In this case, the vaccinations alone only prevented the spread by about 50%. So in this case, the herb immunity did little to prevent the spread.

(I am using CP for an example. As I said before, Measles, mumps, polio fall under a different category and I'm pretty sure you don't take a chance of getting them after you are vaccinated)[/I]

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But if you read that, the ones who got it the most who had been vaccinated were almost due to be vaccinated again with a booster and they still had lesser symtoms even though it had been almost 5 years. I say that's a win for the vaccination.

Not to mention there was no herd immunity in this factor. Over 50% of the students weren't even vaxxed? In order to have herd immunity you need about 96% of the people to be vaxxed in order to gain that immunity status.

semilargeintestine said:

Maybe they used the wrong herb.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

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LOL...Thats what happens when I try to type quickly at work! You know, that oft talked about Parsley immunity!!

1. Do people who are against vaccinations refuse ALL vaccines? Do they not get their babies vaccinated against anything?

I refuse all vaccines for myself and children. My 2 year old is completely unvaccinated. Had his titers (antibodies) checked (do this every 6 months at bi-annual check ups) and he has titers for all VPD's including H1N1 (he had it in first wave in April\May). I myself am immuno-compromised and have a medical exemption from 3 different adverse reactions to three different vaccines (in childhood when I did not have a choice to say no to my parents) which were Hep B, Flu Shot and Tetnus.

My other exemptions is medical (3 out of 5 kids) and philosophical for 2 out of the 5 kids. Philosophically, I cannot condone the use of animal by-product or human aborted fetal tissue because my belief doctrine strictly states Harm none.

2. What about travel? Do you not get vaccinated when traveling to places where disease is prevalent or do you just not travel?

I don't travel much, never have been much for travel. I prefer my big outdoors, middle of the boonies Northern Ontario playground. There's much to do here and we prefer to stick close to home. If I did travel (say my all time dream of going to New Orleans) my exemptions would cover that and no I would not vaccinate during travel either.

3. What is the underlying concern that made you decide not to get vaccinated? Is there some specific literature you read, an experience you had…etc.

The attenuated live viruses (although weakened none or dead), the mixing of bacterials with virals within vaccines such as DTAP (the is purposeful bacteriophaging which is dangerous). The adjuvents such as thimerisol, alum, niomycine (an ototoxic antibiotic), squalene (may be a natural oil but it reacts differently from ingestion to injection causing autoimmune diseases), my immuno-suppressed status. Medical conditions and adverse reactions documented by doctors. I consulted with my doctors on non-vax status and they agree with my position.

The use of human aborted fetal tissue, animal fetal tissue and animal cell by product.

4. Do you think that everyone should not get vaccinated, knowing that such actions would mean that the herd immunity you might enjoy right now (if you happen to live in a country that vaccinates and is thereby free of many such diseases) would be in jeopardy?

Herd immunity does not exist. There is no herd immunity so that's a moot subject for me. What is good for the goose is not always good for the gander. I am not anti-vax I am non-vax (big difference between the two). I am, however pro informed choice. If you do the research and ask your med pro and come to the conclusion that vaccines are for you and yours it is your choice, you have done what you must and made that choice just as much as I have mine. I don't put down those who vaccinate, that's their choice - who am I to judge them for making their own choice for their own bodies.

5. Is this a religious issue?

Yes, partly it is. Both philosophical and medical. I'm no idiot either (up thread, sorry you can't just back peddle and say that you put it as a generalization - own what you say and step up for what you think. If it is your thinking that "us non vaxers are idiots" then say so).

I've read over thousands of pages of actual studies that were conducted on the individual adjuvents and attenuated viruses and bacterials. History of vaccines, of disease, demographics with a medical jargon book at hand if I didn't understand something. I've read all the inserts to the vaccines, I've watched the vaccine (aka drug companies) companies. I've come to my conclusion that vaccination is not for me or mine. People research what car they want up the wazzoo, safety standards, performance levels, gas mileage and yet when it comes to drugs and vaccines they trust so blindly...why is that? Again, if you are for vaccinating yourself, go for it I just ask that I get the same respect for my own decisions for not vaccinating that I give you for yours for vaccinating.

In Canada, there is no mandatory vaccinations - it's considered a medical procedure (preventative) and the Charter of Rights states that no one can be forced to do so. It is our right to say no to it. The three provinces with School Acts that go above the COR must have exemptions in place to by pass the School Act because no law may be read to degrade the Charter of Rights (Canadian Constitution)

www.vran.org has the exemption forms for fellow Canadians wishing to get theirs along with the inserts for all vaccines and articles with study references and news related information on vaccines if they want to do the research, it applies to American and other countries as well. The information is universal save for possible law differences.

icerose said:

But if you read that, the ones who got it the most who had been vaccinated were almost due to be vaccinated again with a booster and they still had lesser symtoms even though it had been almost 5 years. I say that's a win for the vaccination.

Not to mention there was no herd immunity in this factor. Over 50% of the students weren't even vaxxed? In order to have herd immunity you need about 96% of the people to be vaxxed in order to gain that immunity status.

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They have just recently realized though that boosters for CP are needed.

I still don't understand the mentality that says you will have to booster your child for life vs them getting it once. (If my kids have not had CP by the time they are 12 btw, my Dr and I agreed they should get the shot to prevent adult CP.)

Complications are not that common, aside from begin uncomfortable for a week. And yes, I would rather risk my kids getting the actual disease in this case, vs ten years down the road when suddenly its discover that they aren't as protected as everyone thought they'd be with vaccination and they end up getting CP as adults. (Which happened with the original vaccine)

Still, what about the 100 people who die of chickenpox each year? You certainly wouldn't want your child to be one of them. "Sadly, about 7,400 kids end up in the hospital each year because of problems due to chickenpox. . . . And tragically, about forty children lose their lives," warns a Merck Varivax advertisement. But, a skeptic would ask, are those numbers accurate? Not entirely. Even Merck's clinical papers characterize chickenpox as a "benign, self-limiting disease." Technically speaking, people die not from chickenpox, but from complications, such as pneumonia, staph infection, meningitis, and encephalitis.

YAwriter72 said:

They have just recently realized though that boosters for CP are needed.

I still don't understand the mentality that says you will have to booster your child for life vs them getting it once. (If my kids have not had CP by the time they are 12 btw, my Dr and I agreed they should get the shot to prevent adult CP.)

Complications are not that common, aside from begin uncomfortable for a week. And yes, I would rather risk my kids getting the actual disease in this case, vs ten years down the road when suddenly its discover that they aren't as protected as everyone thought they'd be with vaccination and they end up getting CP as adults. (Which happened with the original vaccine)

Still, what about the 100 people who die of chickenpox each year? You certainly wouldn't want your child to be one of them. "Sadly, about 7,400 kids end up in the hospital each year because of problems due to chickenpox. . . . And tragically, about forty children lose their lives," warns a Merck Varivax advertisement. But, a skeptic would ask, are those numbers accurate? Not entirely. Even Merck's clinical papers characterize chickenpox as a "benign, self-limiting disease." Technically speaking, people die not from chickenpox, but from complications, such as pneumonia, staph infection, meningitis, and encephalitis.

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It can't have been too terribly recent, when my daughter was born 8 years ago they told me if I opted for the chicken pox vax she'd need boosters every 5 years to maintain that immunity.

And I've already stated my position on CP. I was merely clarifying that herd immunity had nothing to do with the case you pointed out as there was no herd immunity there weren't enough immunized to even come close to herd immunity.

Jersey Chick said:

However, the one vaccination I AM against is the flu shot. Everyone (and yes, I do mean everyone) I know who's had the shot, got the flu and got worse than any case they've had in seasons where they didn't get the vaccine.

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You seem to be saying that you don't believe flu vaccinations work, and that in fact vaccinations will make the disease worse when you contract it. Is this what you believe?

But, I live in a nanny state - my idiot governor knows better than I do what my kids need.

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Your use of the term nanny state indicates a conservative political philosophy. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of non vaccination proponents are right wing, conservative, or libertarian. A majority of left wing or liberal individuals will be supporters of vaccination. (Anyone want to take the time to set up a poll?)

Since this is a medical and scientific issue, not a political one, why is this?

No, what I'm saying is that every time my son's gotten the vaccine, he has gotten sick. The people I know in real life who have gotten the vaccine, have gotten sick.

The worst case of flu my mom ever had, she got after getting the vaccine. Do I think the vaccine made it worse? Can't say. But considering she's had neither the vaccine nor the flu ever since, certainly leads me to draw a certain conclusion.

By nanny state, I mean laws are passed in NJ left and right to protect people from themselves. Seat belt laws. Helmet laws. Mandatory flu vaccinations. I don't agree with them. I am capable of deciding what's best for me, I don't need Trenton telling me. It's neither conservative nor liberal, but a case of someone's kid gets sick/hurt/whatever and the next thing you know, there's legislation being presented to outlaw rollerblades/ice skates/ sneakers - whatever.

Let me be clear - I am NOT anti-vaccinations. Just anti certain ones that I do not believe are in my children's best interest. And I resent politicians telling me they know better or someone insisting that it's just "coincidence." When it happens once, it's coincidence - when it happens more than once, it isn't, as far as I'm concerned.

TabithaTodd said:

Herd immunity does not exist. There is no herd immunity so that's a moot subject for me.

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How are you using this term?

If by this, you mean that individuals are not immune to diseases simply because all others in their community are, you are correct.

But if enough people are immune, the virus cannot gain a foothold and spread through the population. So the individual who has not been vaccinated is "immune" from the disease because they will never come in contact with it. This is the common and accepted meaning of the phrase.

Jersey Chick said:

Let me be clear - I am NOT anti-vaccinations. Just anti certain ones that I do not believe are in my children's best interest. And I resent politicians telling me they know better or someone insisting that it's just "coincidence." When it happens once, it's coincidence - when it happens more than once, it isn't, as far as I'm concerned.

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I see what you're saying, but how do you explain the millions of people (I am one of them) who gets their yearly flu vaccines and do NOT get the flu? Could it be just b/c I am not susceptible to it? Perhaps. But I'm not the only one who is faithful getting their vaccines and also not getting sick.

I'm not condeming your decision, just curious.

Jersey Chick said:

By nanny state, I mean laws are passed in NJ left and right to protect people from themselves. Seat belt laws. Helmet laws. Mandatory flu vaccinations. I don't agree with them. I am capable of deciding what's best for me, I don't need Trenton telling me.

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Are you also against mandatory seat belt and helmet laws concerning children? If a parent feels it's fine for their eight year old to ride an atv on a rocky hillside without a helmet, is that none of the state's business? Do you believe the parents' rights in deciding what's best for their own kids always supersedes the state's?

If a parent does not believe in medical procedures, is it acceptable for them to refuse to allow antibiotics when their child has a life threatening staph infection?

In other words, are you skeptical about the flu vaccine, or are you philosophically against all mandates -- not only for adults such as yourself, but for children as well?

George, I can't take credit for the seatbelt analogy, although it is an excellent one. I don't know who posted that.

The CP vaccine was not intended so much to prevent the development of pox, but to decrease the severity of cases--fewer pox lesions and fewer complications like severe skin infections from scratched pox, pneumonia, and meningitis. In this era of MRSA and various superbugs, prevention of cellulitis is a big deal.

I think the Internet is probably about composed of equal parts LOLcats and misinformation about vaccines at this point and it is difficult to address all of the points here, but there is a huge problem with herd immunity in some areas. We had an outbreak of measles last year in our state, and the public health department traced the virus to a large pocket of nonvaccinating families in the southern part of the state. Two kids have died of Hemophilus influenzae (HIB) in this area in the past year, the first HIB disease I have ever heard of in my career. A kid died of mumps in the ICU last year. Mumps! I never even really learned about measles and mumps when I was training--nobody had seen a case for years and years.

All somewhat anecdotal, but other states are seeing similar problems. My point: Vaccinate or don't, but don't pretend that your choices have no societal impact.

My mum gets a flu shot every year, and she never gets the flu. She works with kids all day in an elementary school. And then there's me. I hardly ever get the flu shot, and I also hardly ever get the flu. I see no point in getting it.

TerzaRima said:

Vaccinate or don't, but don't pretend that your choices have no societal impact.

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Nobody loves a vector.

swhibs123 said:

What I’m trying to say is, do not mistake your physician’s acceptance of your position to mean that they support, or as you put it, “Agree” with it.

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And you should not assume that all medical practitioners are 100% pro-vax just because they are Doctors either. I have had the fortune to have not one but 2 pediatricians who do not push unnecessary vaccinations.