Self publishing gaining serious ground

FOTSGreg said:

Curation? God, I hope not. A curated site or platform would essentially be little different from traditional publishing, someone still deciding if this work or that one or this review or sale or those are legitimate or not. It would mean more "gatekeepers" not less and that sort of thing would be the dream of agents, especially those who want to become "packagers", and traditional publishers.

Moderated? Maybe, but I'm leery of moderated epublishing or self-publishing as well as it restricts what can and cannot be said when or where. Moderation on a forum is fine and often needed. In publishing? No way.

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Moderated epublishing? All epublishing is moderated. We have these things called acquisitions editors and slushpiles and we reject people.

Self producing an ebook is not epublishing. It's self publishing at the lowest common denominator. A true e-publisher adjudicates its submissions the same way any other small independent press does.

FOTSGreg said:

Curation? God, I hope not. A curated site or platform would essentially be little different from traditional publishing, someone still deciding if this work or that one or this review or sale or those are legitimate or not. It would mean more "gatekeepers" not less and that sort of thing would be the dream of agents, especially those who want to become "packagers", and traditional publishers.

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I want gatekeepers. I don't want to wade through a slush pile; that's what editors get paid to do.

Moderated? Maybe, but I'm leery of moderated epublishing or self-publishing as well as it restricts what can and cannot be said when or where. Moderation on a forum is fine and often needed. In publishing? No way.

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Self-publishing, by definition, is not moderated. As for epublishing, I'm wary enough of epub-only companies, since I have yet to find any that publish anything I'd pay print prices for. You want them to exercise no filtration at all?

Amadan said:

As for epublishing, I'm wary enough of epub-only companies, since I have yet to find any that publish anything I'd pay print prices for. You want them to exercise no filtration at all?

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I'd venture to suggest that you haven't searched thoroughly enough in the epublishing world. There are numerous reputable and respected epublishers out there who produce outstanding books.

mscelina said:

I'd venture to suggest that you haven't searched thoroughly enough in the epublishing world.

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I'd venture to suggest I have.

I'm sure there's gold out in them thar hills. There's just a limit to how hard I'm willing to dig to find it, especially since there are plenty of ebooks available from print publishers.

People who want to sort stuff out for themselves are free to do so. No one will stop you. But others of us will find people whose recommendations we trust, and that will be another way to find good books to read.

Which is what it all comes down to in the end: finding stuff we want to read. You're free to go at it however you like.

Here’s another theory. If eBooks continue to be sold at 99 cents a piece, people would just download the ones that sound interesting to them ten at a time, then ditch the ones that aren’t interesting – or written poorly. Most likely if you discover you have a dawg of an eBook on your hands, you’re probably not going to take the time to review it either.

I dunno, this is all conjecture. I’m just thinking about the way I download apps for my iPhone. Or ringtones. I don’t even use most of them them. And most of the time when I download them, I’m sitting in the dentist’s office or the airport trying to find any way to kill time and ... Oh! Look! Bright shiny app for only 99 cents!!!

The trick I think some self-publishers are going to use is to get really slick with the cover art and marketing tactics (as noted above, getting people to purchase your book at a certain time to make it jump in the rankings -- maybe even hiring them). I mean, how do we even know that people who rate a lot of these eBooks on Amazon are actually real people? What if they were hired to post the reviews? I mean, it happens all over the rest of the ‘net, and we know this. Right?

Interesting twist, supernaut. I agree - it looks like there are more and more ways that people can buy things they don't want, or get charged for something by mistake, or nickle-and-dimed by their phone service. But is that any kind of goal? Maybe I can get listed in some huge directory where maybe some people will pay 99 cents whether they even look at my nearly invisible book or not? Slick cover art = zzz. Reviews = probably just friends and little conspiracies. Awards = a dime a dozen. I can bounce around between any of 1,000 sites, see endless line-ups of authors I've never heard of, all screaming for my attention. It's sad. No little two-man company can realistically "publish" 200 titles a year and do anything with them other than throw them in an index and cross their fingers. The absolute glut of work is mind-boggling. Maybe we can each carve out 1% of 1% of 1% of the market and afford a pizza once or twice a year. I think this thread has gotten more realistic than where it started - arguing about whether one particular author made a million dollars or not. Looking at the top 1% of people working in any market is not very useful. Brief inspiration, but mostly smoke & mirrors. But, yeah, than bottom 90% is just depressing.

scottVee said:

Interesting twist, supernaut. I agree - it looks like there are more and more ways that people can buy things they don't want, or get charged for something by mistake, or nickle-and-dimed by their phone service. But is that any kind of goal?... Maybe we can each carve out 1% of 1% of 1% of the market and afford a pizza once or twice a year. I think this thread has gotten more realistic than where it started - arguing about whether one particular author made a million dollars or not. Looking at the top 1% of people working in any market is not very useful. Brief inspiration, but mostly smoke & mirrors. But, yeah, than bottom 90% is just depressing.

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LOL! No kidding. It’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. Personally, I think that a writer has an equal chance of making it in some capacity as a self-published “Kindle writer” as he or she does getting picked up by an agent and publishing house. So really, it all depends on which convenience store you want to purchase the lottery ticket.

Ya know … WTF? I work in freelance and want to kiss my clients’ feet right now.

Both the traditional publishing world and the world of self-publishers have their own special brand of ludicrosity (<--, that’s an intentional neologism).

Torgo said:

Self publishing in print, you have huge production and distribution issues that don't arise with ebook self publishing. If you want physical books in stores across the nation, you still need a traditional publisher to get the best deals, exploit economies of scale, and get access to buyers and reviewers. They are two very different beasts.

Even someone like Amanda Hocking (for those playing at home: take a shot), whose success has been all off her own bat so far, has signed a deal with St Martins to get her books on shelves.

What mainly concerns me about a world with in which everyone is their own e-publisher is that I have seen slush piles, and I have seen PublishAmerica's catalogue listings, and I have no idea how I will be able to drill down to the small fraction that is actually worth reading. The publishing industry will not survive the digital age in exactly the form it exists in now, but many of its functions are valuable to consumers and authors and will inevitably be retained.

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I know that it is vastly easier to publish electronically then to get paper books in stores. But that wasn't the argument.

When you said "Aren't they all epublished though?" you made it sound like that is not self publishing. But it is ... Barry Eisler is still leaving his publisher, has turned down that 500k advance and publishes his next book on his own.

I think especially because of the easiness of putting up ebooks we will see more 'named' authors going that route, where before they wouldn't have self published.

First of all, there should be no discussion that both Traditional Publishing and Self-Publishing have their advantages and disadvantages. So there is no 'us vs. them'.

Second, some established authors are putting their backlists up as self-published e-books. These books have been professionally edited when they were published before.

Third, some authors have slipped through the cracks of TP and are now exploring how to SP with e-books. Their writing is often quality and well-edited, but not deemed commercial enough for TP.

Fourth, there is a tremendous influx from amateurs flooding the e-book market with crap, trying to emulate Hocking and Konrath.

Fifth, there's a problem with distinguishing between the 'real books' and the 'crap'. Cream might float to the top, but so does shit...

I think what will happen is that word-of-mouth and independent reviewers will become more important. Sorting e-books can happen in different ways, but writers like Konrath stress the need for professional [looking] covers and good formatting. Also, writers need to be careful not to allow books hit the market that have typo/spelling/grammar issues. If possible, they should have multiple bèta-readers and perhaps freelance editors go over their manuscripts.

In the end, the better e-books will distinguish themselves in:
- sales numbers.
- multiple reviews, both on Amazon and by independent reviewers.
- media promotion on Facebook, Twitter, websites and blogs.
- excellent sample pages, that will draw the reader in and sell the book.
- reasonable prices.

If you read e-books, you will find a reviewer you can trust, just like the book review in your newspaper. Some books will become popular. While that doesn't equal quality writing, it's an indication that there's not much 'wrong' with them. They might not be to your taste, but that's where the free sample pages come in.

In fact, this selection process is not all that different from promotion by traditional publishers, except that the channels are more alternative at this moment - the e-book is slowly heading towards becoming mainstream, and will become a popular format in the future. Some people will buy books on the basis of advertisement, some because their friends told them, some because the price is right, some because they read the first page and it grabbed their attention, some because they read a favorable review on their favorite e-book review website.

AmsterdamAssassin said:

Second, some established authors are putting their backlists up as self-published e-books. These books have been professionally edited when they were published before.

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Yeah, but that's clearly not what people mean when they say "self-published." Those books weren't just professionally edited, but they were accepted and published by a publisher.

In fact, this selection process is not all that different from promotion by traditional publishers, except that the channels are more alternative at this moment - the e-book is slowly heading towards becoming mainstream, and will become a popular format in the future.

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It's already a popular format. Ebooks != self-publishing/epublished-only.

The selection process is still pretty different for the latter; most reviewers and review blogs don't touch them, and relatively few people will even hear about them, except for the occasional anomalies like Amanda "Fill in your bingo card" Hocking.

TheBigEasy said:

I know that it is vastly easier to publish electronically then to get paper books in stores. But that wasn't the argument.

When you said "Aren't they all epublished though?" you made it sound like that is not self publishing. But it is ... Barry Eisler is still leaving his publisher, has turned down that 500k advance and publishes his next book on his own.

I think especially because of the easiness of putting up ebooks we will see more 'named' authors going that route, where before they wouldn't have self published.

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Oh I agree with all of that. It is just that 'self publishing' may now be too broad a term to be able to use in a meaningful way. For example this thread title: ebook self publishing is gaining serious ground. Print self publishing isn't. I don't mean to be pedantic but i think it is worth making the distinction.

Torgo said:

Oh I agree with all of that. It is just that 'self publishing' may now be too broad a term to be able to use in a meaningful way. For example this thread title: ebook self publishing is gaining serious ground. Print self publishing isn't. I don't mean to be pedantic but i think it is worth making the distinction.

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I actually think E-book self publishing will be the dominant form of self publishing before long. I'd venture a guess that once E-book marketshare increases, it will be the Publish Americas of the world that will get into serious trouble, not the big 6.

AS the big names start to enter the picture, the playing field will grow, but I would be surprised if this helps the first time self-published author. Sales will move towards those with a name and a budget to spend on artwork, editing and advertising. E-publishing may lose its stigma as a place for the slush pile, but I do believe some writers may find a new home with e-books, if they understand how the system works.

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Henri Bauholz said:

E-publishing may lose its stigma as a place for the slush pile...

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Does e-publishing have a stigma?

TheBigEasy said:

I actually think E-book self publishing will be the dominant form of self publishing before long. I'd venture a guess that once E-book marketshare increases, it will be the Publish Americas of the world that will get into serious trouble, not the big 6.

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From your keys to God's ears.

Henri Bauholz said:

E-publishing may lose its stigma as a place for the slush pile, but I do believe some writers may find a new home with e-books, if they understand how the system works.

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Does e-publishing have a stigma?

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If they know how the system works.

TheBigEasy said:

I actually think E-book self publishing will be the dominant form of self publishing before long. I'd venture a guess that once E-book marketshare increases, it will be the Publish Americas of the world that will get into serious trouble, not the big 6.

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That would be a very nice outcome. I hadn't thought of it, and it makes sense to me.

shadowwalker said:

Does e-publishing have a stigma?

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I don't think so. However, self-publishing does, and self-published e-books will not help that at all. In fact, I can see the stigma getting worse as more and more books are self-published electronically.

Torgo said:

Oh I agree with all of that. It is just that 'self publishing' may now be too broad a term to be able to use in a meaningful way. For example this thread title: ebook self publishing is gaining serious ground. Print self publishing isn't. I don't mean to be pedantic but i think it is worth making the distinction.

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Self-publishing is one thing; e-publishing is another. One is a container for published books, which we can group with hard covers, paperback and audio books; another is a way to get published. That the two are often used interchangeably now does not help at all.

If not Publish America then some other scammer will show up to try and separate writers from their cash. Dean Wesley Smith points out that we're already seeing people offering their services as e-book packagers, providing graphics and editing and publicity to new writers. And those are all valuable services if provided by someone good, but in this case it's "give me cash up front and 50% of your revenue forever", whether the service is good or not. Desperate writers will always find someone ready to take advantage of them.

jnfr said:

If not Publish America then some other scammer will show up to try and separate writers from their cash. Dean Wesley Smith points out that we're already seeing people offering their services as e-book packagers, providing graphics and editing and publicity to new writers. And those are all valuable services if provided by someone good, but in this case it's "give me cash up front and 50% of your revenue forever", whether the service is good or not. Desperate writers will always find someone ready to take advantage of them.

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That unfortunately is the flip side to my Publish America argument ... that either PA themselves or someone else comes along and just switches their scheme over to ebooks.

On second thought ... PA might not be able to switch their "give us your book and then buy the copies from us" scheme that easily over to ebooks.

But scammers will find a way to cheat someone out of their money. All you can do about that is try to educate the writers.

What actually worries me more is that stuff like this: http://www.publishingtrends.com/2011/03/the-kindle-swindle/ will force Amazon to drastically alter their Kindle Publishing platform and will make it that much harder for authors to publish their stuff.

TheBigEasy said:

What actually worries me more is that stuff like this: http://www.publishingtrends.com/2011/03/the-kindle-swindle/ will force Amazon to drastically alter their Kindle Publishing platform and will make it that much harder for authors to publish their stuff.

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I can't believe that anyone wouldn't think that this wouldn't happen. I make it a habit to lurk on black hat forums specifically so I will NOT get scammed by something that appears "legit" (acai berry pills, anybody??). Once Google changed the way it ranked search results, a lot of black hatters' websites tanked right to the bottom. Sites that were making hundreds of dollars made none. They were all over this like white on rice.

TheBigEasy said:

What actually worries me more is that stuff like this: http://www.publishingtrends.com/2011/03/the-kindle-swindle/ will force Amazon to drastically alter their Kindle Publishing platform and will make it that much harder for authors to publish their stuff.

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Wow. That's scary. It's the next level of the content mill.

Thanks for sharing the link.

I hadn't heard about that either. Thanks for the link.

Torgo said:

I hope paying readers have the time and money to sort the wheat from the chaff. There is a hell of a lot of chaff.

The current literary mainstream - which already encompasses a huge amount of books - is about the fourth or fifth level of filtration. In a free-for-all world where everybody is their own publisher, your choice of books would be expanded by four or five orders of magnitude, and it'd become increasingly hard to discern what is likely to be worth reading before you bought it. Good books would be more likely to be completely ignored because it would be far more likely for them to remain undiscovered and unchampioned.

People could read free samples, sure, but they would have to read a dozens a day. It would be a full time job, in fact - a bit like mine.

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I think you're missing the entire point of Amanda Hocking's improbable rise to a publishing contract and film deal. The largely unregulated e-book market can allow publishers to sign proven and established talents such as Amanda Hocking. She already has a reader base and she doesn't require a substantial investment on the part of the publisher. Yes, she is "self-published," but that really doesn't mean anything at all in the digital marketplace, where the playing field doesn't lend any advantage to the publishing house.

The real question is whether the major publishing houses will require large numbers of salaried editors to deal with the established and proven self-published e-book authors that they sign? Perhaps the Amanda Hockings of the world will eventually hire their own free-lance editors? In any case, you really do have to admit that modern desktop publishing has modified the role the editor. Moreover, the internet has further blurred the role of the editor, both within the still healthy publishing industry, as well as the ailing print media sector. Is an unpaid beta reviewer an "editor?" What about the webmaster of a news aggregation site?