Is it ever okay to begin querying before your manuscript is finished?

Phaeal · Aug 12, 2011

I turn out clean first drafts, since my "real" first draft is an extended exploratory outline complete with scenes and dialogue. Nevertheless, I have always needed to do a second draft, to straighten out and expand plot and theme, a third draft to cut to desired length (I write long), and a fourth draft to polish, polish, polish.

With each draft, I'm always amazed to see how that MS that seemed so perfect during the last run-through has lost its shine.

Another thing to note: Given that most agents now request material via email, and that it's as easy to send (and handle) a digital full as a partial, I found that many agents requested my full right off the bat. Saves them time if they like the MS. If they don't like it, they're under no obligation to read more of a full than they'd read of a partial.

More reason than ever to have that full ready before you query.

Brutal Mustang · Aug 12, 2011

shaldna said:
The fact that you have been working on it for a while and are only half done, so take the time you've been writing it and add that again, then add a couple of weeks for rewrites etc.

Just a couple of weeks? The rewriting phase has been taking me almost a year, so far. And I work on it 7-24 hours a week.

texas_girl, if you want to write a really good first book--one that will not only be publishable, but earn you money as well--you're going to have to put several thousand dollars' worth of work on that sucker. You're first draft? It's practically an outline.

scarletpeaches · Aug 12, 2011

dgiharris said:
I guarantee you on that 3rd, 4th, or even 5th revision you are going to need a stiff hard drink

good luck

Mel...

Brutal Mustang said:
Yes. Yes. And yes.

No. No. And no.

What? You knew I was going to pop up and say that. Five revisions? For one book? If I needed that many, there'd be something seriously wrong with the entire project.

One draft. Edit it. Done.

shaldna said:
...add a couple of weeks for rewrites etc...

Brutal Mustang said:
Just a couple of weeks? The rewriting phase has been taking me almost a year, so far. And I work on it 7-24 hours a week. ...

A couple of weeks surprised me, but only because I think that's too long. With my first published novel, I edited it in a fortnight. After that, the time needed gradually shortened. Now, for a full-length manuscript, I need a week to ten days. If the first draft was that much of a shitstorm I needed any longer, then again, I'd conclude there was something seriously wrong with the project. Even when an editor has asked me to rejig a few things, it's never taken me weeks to sort it. More like days.

Brutal Mustang said:
You're first draft? It's practically an outline.

Your first draft might be, but that's definitely not the case for a lot of writers.

But as to the OP, imagine querying a novel before it's finished. You're asked for the full. You don't have it. Yeah. That's gonna make you look so professional to the agent.

Don't do it.

shaldna · Aug 12, 2011

scarletpeaches said:
Five revisions? For one book? If I needed that many, there'd be something seriously wrong with the entire project.

I think sometimes people can become addicted to revising, and strive to 'get it perfect'

One draft. Edit it. Done.A couple of weeks surprised me, but only because I think that's too long. With my first published novel, I edited it in a fortnight. After that, the time needed gradually shortened.

I guess it depends on how you work. A couple of weeks seemed like a good estimate for the majority of people.

I tend to do all my editing at once, in a long session if possible. But I know people who take months to do it.

Personally I feel that there has to come a point where you have to stop rewriting and editing and do something with it or put it away for good.

Rewriting and reworking for editors should, as Scarlet pointed out, be done quickly. You can't keep an editor waiting a month for you to rewrite a chapter.

scarletpeaches · Aug 12, 2011

I hate editing. So you're probably thinking, "Huh? A week and a half? You whizz through it and you complain that you hate it?"

Well, yeah. I do it quickly because I want it over with, but note quickly does not mean it's not conscientious.

Anne Lyle · Aug 12, 2011

It depends totally on your writing style. I'm a quick'n'dirty, vomit-the-ideas-onto-the-screen writer on the first (zero-th?) draft, then my left brain has to try and make sense of what my right brain has come up with and turn it into a coherent narrative. This takes time, at least to begin with. Plus my books are a lot longer and more complex than SP's, I think (I've only read one of hers). Holding 120k+ of multi-threaded storyline in your head at once takes some doing, I can tell you!

The revision passes get successively quicker, though. I can do a final polish of a complete 140k manuscript in a weekend, for example.

scarletpeaches · Aug 12, 2011

Wow. Thanks for that. :Wha:

Brutal Mustang · Aug 12, 2011

I had a decent plot and characters to start with. But during the year I've been revising, I've come up with spectacular ideas I would have never thought of quickly.

Marian Perera · Aug 12, 2011

This thread should be obligatory reading for anyone who wants to query with a half-finished manuscript.

The writer in question deleted his posts, but the replies are still there and you can see how things got progressively worse.

Mr Flibble · Aug 12, 2011

Not picking on you specifically Anne, just using your quote as a jumping point.

Anne Lyle said:
Holding 120k+ of multi-threaded storyline in your head at once takes some doing, I can tell you!

And still doesn't take me long to edit.

It all depends on the writer. And how far along they are in learning - my first book had bajillions of drafts, cos I was still learning. Ten Ruby had two and a bit - first draft, a 'half draft' where I went through the notes I'd left in the text saying XXinsert pub name herexx etc but left teh rest unchanged, then second draft applying beta comments combined with a polish. That second 'draft' took two weeks.

Not everyone needs multiple drafts.
Not everyone can do it in two.

Neither are good or bad. Being one or the other isn't bad, just you.

Querying before finishing is probably not a good plan though unless you KNOW that you're a 'first draft is final draft' kind of writer AND you can write seriously bloody quickly

.

scarletpeaches · Aug 12, 2011

And the first draft of my first novel was 148k so I guess I win the word count pissing contest.

mysterymantis · Aug 12, 2011

I don't think I need to read all the responses to know that everyone that replied likely said no. I'm not a published author (yet, nor likely ever), but I've done a bit of research on this subject. I've not once found anything that lead me to believe it was ever a good idea to query first, finish later. I certainly found plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Consider that these agents and publishers receive 100's of not 1000's of queries a year. Out of all those, the majority are going to be rejected. If by some chance you get picked up, do you want to risk losing that endorsement because you don't have a finished MS to send? Or even if you finish by the time you get picked, risk sending out something that is unrefined? These are unnecessary risk that can be avoided by waiting until the correct time to query.

As a side story, here is a life lesson my roommate learned a while back...

"Mike" (replaced name to protect the ~~innocent~~ stupid) decides, "I'm gonna make a movie!" Then, without so much as a script, or even any knowledge of film making what-so-ever, goes and buys a $5,000 camera. He then sells this camera 6 months later, for an undisclosed-to-me amount of money (I'm betting he was lucky to get 3 grand back from it). He never filmed anything.

While not a complete comparison to your situation, I think it showcases the damage that over-zealousness can cause.

Mr Flibble · Aug 12, 2011

scarletpeaches said:
And the first draft of my first novel was 148k so I guess I win the word count pissing contest.

225k.....

Then I learned that fantasy doesn't auto equal doorstopper

Took 8 weeks to cut to 110k.

scarletpeaches · Aug 12, 2011

*shakes fist at Julia*

Damn you. DAMN YOU!

Mr Flibble · Aug 12, 2011

*flaunts frilllies at SP*

Anne Lyle · Aug 12, 2011

scarletpeaches said:
And the first draft of my first novel was 148k so I guess I win the word count pissing contest.

As I said, I've only read one of yours. Wasn't trying to start a pissing contest

FWIW, I've only finished one novel, and it was a long, hard learning curve for me, because I write short and have to revise upwards, rather than having to cut. Hence my second draft takes by far the longest.

seun · Aug 12, 2011

I'm the opposite of SP (English, bald, a man...) in that I quite like editing. I enjoy seeing the finished book take shape over a few weeks, but that's just how I work.

And I still wouldn't query a book that wasn't as good and polished as I could make it. Why would waste my time or the agent's with an unfinished book?

shaldna · Aug 12, 2011

I hate editing.

I always get annoyed, I'm like 'but I already wrote this!'

dgiharris · Aug 12, 2011

scarletpeaches said:
No. No. And no.

What? You knew I was going to pop up and say that. Five revisions? For one book? If I needed that many, there'd be something seriously wrong with the entire project..

opps, sorry,

I was thinking short stories :tongue

Jamesaritchie · Aug 12, 2011

I made the mistake of querying an agent before I had a completed manuscript. I had, in fact, written only four or five pages. My excuse is that it was my first novel, and I simply didn't know any better.

The agent called almost as soon as the query left my mailbox. She assumed I had a finished manuscript, and wanted to see it immediately. Instead of confessing, I asked for enough time to do another draft, and she said sure, but that she needed it by the first of the next month because she knew an editor who had an open slot for just such a novel. I agreed.

It did work out. I wrote the novel in three weeks, got it to her on time, and the editor bought it immediately.

But just because it worked out is no reason to do it. That was the longest three weeks of my life. I worked all day, every day, ate while writing, and sometimes slept while writing. And because I had only three weeks, I had to send her the first draft. Fortunately, the first draft was good enough for her, and good enough for the publisher, but that was a three week nightmare.

After you're published novelist, you shouldn't have to write another complete novel until after you have a contract. Until this point, however, querying before you have a finished manuscript is not a smart move. I lucked out all the way around, and I'd never suggest any new writer do the same thing I did.

Ambitious · Aug 12, 2011

Never query unfinished work unless you're a recognised author making a good living out of writing.

texas_girl · Aug 12, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
I made the mistake of querying an agent before I had a completed manuscript. I had, in fact, written only four or five pages. My excuse is that it was my first novel, and I simply didn't know any better.

The agent called almost as soon as the query left my mailbox. She assumed I had a finished manuscript, and wanted to see it immediately. Instead of confessing, I asked for enough time to do another draft, and she said sure, but that she needed it by the first of the next month because she knew an editor who had an open slot for just such a novel. I agreed.

It did work out. I wrote the novel in three weeks, got it to her on time, and the editor bought it immediately.

But just because it worked out is no reason to do it. That was the longest three weeks of my life. I worked all day, every day, ate while writing, and sometimes slept while writing. And because I had only three weeks, I had to send her the first draft. Fortunately, the first draft was good enough for her, and good enough for the publisher, but that was a three week nightmare.

After you're published novelist, you shouldn't have to write another complete novel until after you have a contract. Until this point, however, querying before you have a finished manuscript is not a smart move. I lucked out all the way around, and I'd never suggest any new writer do the same thing I did.

Thanks for the advice from your first-hand experience! You DID get lucky. This (and other comments) have convinced me to finish and polish my book before I even think about querying.

blacbird · Aug 12, 2011

For some of us, it's never okay to query. Period.

caw

Inkblot · Aug 13, 2011

scarletpeaches said:
No. No. And no.

One draft. Edit it. Done.A couple of weeks surprised me, but only because I think that's too long.

scarletpeaches, you're lucky that that snappy approach to editing works for you. But that would be a poor approach for most writers. Especially for most writers of literary fiction. Especially for most writers of literary fiction who actually want to get published. Few editors these days have the time to do the editing they used to do. They're not likely to take on a project unless it's already pretty close to perfect. And, for most writers, a single draft and a ten day edit won't get them there.

Again, more power to you if that's how you work. I just wouldn't recommend your method to any novices out there.

P.S. I love editing. It's my favorite part of writing. To each his own.

Inkblot · Aug 13, 2011

texas_girl, rather than sending a query prematurely to an agent or editor, have you considered getting feedback from some other helpful sources? I'm guessing that's why you're feeling antsy; you're excited about your manuscript and want to share what you're doing. If you're not part of a critique group you could consider joining one. Or you could look for a writer's conference that offers critiques with agents and editors.

Is it ever okay to begin querying before your manuscript is finished?

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

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