A Question of Tense

oldhousejunkie · Jul 1, 2012

I need some advice regarding tenses. I wrote my MS in 1st and 3rd person. I used 1st person for my female MC and 3rd person for my male MC. The initial reaction when I tell folks is that they think it's confusing. I don't think so. I spend most of the time with the female MC, so 1st person is used predominantly. But I love to see what's going on with the male MC so I do have a chapter or section featuring what he sees, feels, etc. I try to keep things as simple as possible. There are always chapter breaks when I switch tenses. For example, the first two chapters are with the female, first person. The third chapter introduces the male MC, written in third.

I've had some people say that they don't think they would like it this way. But I think maybe because it's not an often used method of writing, people are just freaked out about it. I know Laurie R. King writes her Mary Russell/Sherlock Holmes series like this. And then in discussing the issue with my husband, he says he thinks that the Anita Blake books are written this way as well.

What do ya'll think? I'm looking to self-publish in the coming weeks, so I've got to make a decision. I started to re-write using all 3rd this afternoon, but something's "off". It could be just me, but I don't know! I don't want to go to the trouble to self-publish only to get reviews that say, "I loved the premise but the tense shifts annoyed the hell out of me!"

I've had a handful of beta readers look at it. Maybe two mentioned that they weren't fans of the tense shift. The other two didn't say anything. The MS has received multiple requests for agents and I did have one say that they though the tense shifts would make it hard to market (on top of an unpopular time period).

I'm just very frustrated, that's for sure! I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance!

Kerosene · Jul 1, 2012

Tense?

Are you sure you're not talking about POV (Point of View)?

Tense is:
Past
Present
Future
And the perfects.

POV is:
1st
2nd
3rd omni and limited
With others.

If you're talking about Tense, don't change it. Leave it Past or Present throughout the book.

If you're talking about POV, 1st POV to 3rd can be confusing.
IMO, you should change over to 3rd person, rather than 1st because it's much easier for the reader to follow than 1st person changes.

Hope this helps.

oldhousejunkie · Jul 1, 2012

WillSauger said:
Tense?

Are you sure you're not talking about POV (Point of View)?

Tense is:
Past
Present
Future
And the perfects.

POV is:
1st
2nd
3rd omni and limited
With others.

If you're talking about Tense, don't change it. Leave it Past or Present throughout the book.

If you're talking about POV, 1st POV to 3rd can be confusing.
IMO, you should change over to 3rd person, rather than 1st because it's much easier for the reader to follow than 1st person changes.

Hope this helps.

POV. My apologies. Sometimes I get narrowminded and think of POV as being associated with a specific character and not the whole 1st/3rd thing.

Thanks for your advice!

Kerosene · Jul 1, 2012

oldhousejunkie said:
POV. My apologies. Sometimes I get narrowminded and think of POV as being associated with a specific character and not the whole 1st/3rd thing.

Thanks for your advice!

Just to clarify:

If you're switching characters, chapter by chapter (or whatnot), stick to 3rd person.

Why?

Because it's hard for the reader to know who the narrator is in 1st person.

3rd person switch it fine and it's widely used.

Glad to help.

oldhousejunkie · Jul 1, 2012

I'm so frustrated I could cry.

I thought it would a simple (although laborious) switch. "She" for "I", "her" for "my" but it's so much more. It's just not right. I keep reading it over and over and it sounds all wrong now. I'm beginning to question if it's worth it. If I have to write scenes/sections from scratch, it's going to almost be a complete re-write.

Perhaps I should think about just making it all 1st person since the majority is written that way? I'm trying to think about how that will affect the reader's perception of the male MC....

Horserider · Jul 1, 2012

I'm going to assume that you're talking about POV shift instead of tenses.

I think, if it works, you should change everything to first person. The shifts from first to third would definitely draw me out of the story. I've read first person novels with changing POV before.

The only issue that I would be worried about is the fact that it sounds like your changes are random and don't happen very often. Most of the shifting novels that I've read do it on a pattern and/or have the POV character's name at the start of the section to indicate who's narrating.

I normally get thrown off the first time the POV switches if I'm not expecting it and then settle into the pattern after that. If it's random, though, you run the risk of throwing off the reader every time.

jeffo20 · Jul 1, 2012

WillSauger said:
Just to clarify:

If you're switching characters, chapter by chapter (or whatnot), stick to 3rd person.

Why?

Because it's hard for the reader to know who the narrator is in 1st person.

3rd person switch it fine and it's widely used.

Glad to help.

I have to disagree with this.

I have seen books do what you want to do (1st to 3rd) and do it effectively. I've seen books that have had multiple first person narratives from different characters (Jodi Picoult's House Rules had I believe five different 1st person narrators). It can work. It does work. If you think it's best for your book, and you can make it work, do it.

ishtar'sgate · Jul 1, 2012

I don't see any reason why you can't do it the way you want to but if you're concerned about it why not try writing a few scenes in 1st person for the male MC and compare it to the same scenes written in 3rd. You are the only one who knows what you want your work to sound and read like so trust your judgement. Best of luck.

oldhousejunkie · Jul 1, 2012

Thanks everyone for weighing in.

I wouldn't say that the shifts are random. Typically it's for every three chapters of the 1st person-female MC, there is one chapter with the 3rd person-male MC. The only time where the narrative becomes predominantly from her POV, is when they are split up (MS is a romantic historical fiction). In this latter half, a second male MC has a chapter or two devoted to his POV written in 3rd person.
Personally, I think it's very clear who's who.

What I'm contemplating right now is just making the whole thing 1st person from the female POV. Like Jane Austen, I got no reason to be in a male's mind. Lol. It's a lot less stressful to me to stick to the female POV if I'm going to make a substantive change of this nature. I will have to go back and work harder to make certain motives clearer since it will all be filtered from the female's POV. I do have worries about over filtering. I got called on that by my very first beta reader. But I find it difficult to not filter through that character's eyes. Without being overt with dialogue, she's got to infer things from unspoken looks and actions.

Thoughts?

Horserider · Jul 1, 2012

oldhousejunkie said:
Thanks everyone for weighing in.

I wouldn't say that the shifts are random. Typically it's for every three chapters of the 1st person-female MC, there is one chapter with the 3rd person-male MC. The only time where the narrative becomes predominantly from her POV, is when they are split up (MS is a romantic historical fiction). In this latter half, a second male MC has a chapter or two devoted to his POV written in 3rd person.
Personally, I think it's very clear who's who.

What I'm contemplating right now is just making the whole thing 1st person from the female POV. Like Jane Austen, I got no reason to be in a male's mind. Lol. It's a lot less stressful to me to stick to the female POV if I'm going to make a substantive change of this nature. I will have to go back and work harder to make certain motives clearer since it will all be filtered from the female's POV. I do have worries about over filtering. I got called on that by my very first beta reader. But I find it difficult to not filter through that character's eyes. Without being overt with dialogue, she's got to infer things from unspoken looks and actions.

Thoughts?

What is over-filtering?

I would either change the whole thing to first person or go with your idea to put it all in the female's POV. If all the voices you're going to use are distinct enough that you don't think it'll be a problem for the reader to know who's who, just change the perspective to first.

If you're worried that there will be a lot of confusion and that the male perspectives don't add anything to the story, put it all in the female's perspective. If you go with that option, I would keep what you have of the male perspectives in a separate document, just for reference or fun.

oldhousejunkie · Jul 1, 2012

Horserider said:
What is over-filtering?

I would either change the whole thing to first person or go with your idea to put it all in the female's POV. If all the voices you're going to use are distinct enough that you don't think it'll be a problem for the reader to know who's who, just change the perspective to first.

If you're worried that there will be a lot of confusion and that the male perspectives don't add anything to the story, put it all in the female's perspective. If you go with that option, I would keep what you have of the male perspectives in a separate document, just for reference or fun.

Filtering (in general) is stating: "I saw him grimace." You're supposed to say: "He grimaced." Which that still applys to 1st person. But I feel like I may need to lapse into that some in order help the reader infer what that character may be feeling because in 1st person, that character doesn't have a voice. So it would read: "He grimaced and I wondered if my words had hurt him."

Wow--that was pretty confusing. I hope I made sense.

To clarify, here are my options:

1. Leave the MS as is. Basically, three chapters in the 1st person, female POV to every 1 chapter in 3rd person, male POV.

2. Completely take out the male POV. The MS will entirely reflect the 1st person, female POV. However, in doing this, I have some concerns about conveying the motives and intentions of the male MC. He is a spy and there is a chapter that sets up why he is a spy, what his mission is, etc. Similarly, the second male MC in the second half of the novel goes BSC because the female MC reminds him of his dead, cheating ex-wife (whom he killed). It may be hard to convey either of these scenarios without having the 3rd person breaks.

toomanycarbs · Jul 3, 2012

I would probably switch both to first person, but be sure the VERY FIRST line of each chapter makes it clear who we are reading now.

Little Anonymous Me · Jul 3, 2012

Jonathan Stroud does this, and I think it worked very well for him. It's not done often, so it'll set your work apart. Go for it!

jaksen · Jul 3, 2012

Just write it first person from the woman's pov. You can always show what 'he's thinking' by what he says and does - and if sometimes you can't, so what? Does the reader need to know his every feeling, motivation, and inner thought?

You create a little mystery if sometimes he says one thing and does another. Well imo anyhow.

(And if you really need to show his inner thoughts, then have his sister find his journal now and then and rush to the MC to share what she's learned.)

katebranden · Jul 3, 2012

KBtheWriter said:
I would probably switch both to first person, but be sure the VERY FIRST line of each chapter makes it clear who we are reading now.

This is done all the time in stuff I read. I'm not sure why everyone seems to think it's not done often. *shrugs*

Usually when it's all in first, the chapter header indicates which character is speaking. However, it's really important that the characters have different voices. If they're too similar, the reader may forget who's speaking mid-chapter and get confused.

I could see how it could be confusing for a reader if you have one character in first and another in third, as it may seem like the first character is omnisciently telling the reader about the second character. But if you used character names in the chapter headers, I would think it would be perfectly clear, at least to me, what was going on.

Fallen · Jul 3, 2012

I use a mix of 1st and 3rd pov narration for the same character, mostly because my main mc has dissociation from certain things that happen in their life. It's psychological condition resulting from trauma. He refuses to narrate 'I' for some chapters, simply switches to 'he' objective.

I think so long as there is a reason why you're doing it, and that you know that reason....

Iustefan · Jul 4, 2012

I think it's OK.

Only, at the switch to 3rd person, it may feel to the reader like the narrator(the girl) from the 1st person is now telling the story of the boy in 3rd person. So if she is recounting events from his past, which she can know, it can work out well; or if he is telling her the things it's OK.

If you can somehow make it work, with two distinct narrative voices(one for 1st, one for 3rd), and it's clear one isn't telling the other, it may work. I dunno. It depends on execution and feel.

Think about the logistics of it though, and seriously think about the reasoning behind making this choice. Do we need to know his part of the story? Does her part need to be 1st person?

WriteMinded · Jul 4, 2012

The option to change it all to the woman's POV would get my vote. My second choice would be keep the male's POV but change it to 1st person. BUT I'm not sure what you mean here:

oldhousejunkie said:
. . . there is one chapter with the 3rd person-male MC. The only time where the narrative becomes predominantly from her POV, is when they are split up (MS is a romantic historical fiction).

If you mean that in the midst of the MMC's chapters, the FMC takes over the narrative, that would be pretty confusing.

The part that has to go is this:

oldhousejunkie said:
In this latter half, a second male MC has a chapter or two devoted to his POV written in 3rd person.

An extra POV thrown in? For what reason?

Susan Coffin · Jul 4, 2012

Using first and third person in the same novel is not confusing if done well. Just make sure each POV is given separate chapters.

DeaK · Jul 4, 2012

There is no sure answer to your question, and people who haven't read your book can't really tell you the answer one way or the other (or, they shouldn't, IMO). Even people who have read your book could be giving you invalid advice. Invalid because it could be based on 'what they would do', or because they think there's a rule that says you don't mix first and third. On the other hand, maybe it's good advice. Why are they saying you should change it? Were they confused? Did they think the switch unnecessary, leading to information overkill?

People have feelings about POV, about first and third, and the mix. Maybe writers, especially, have feelings about these things, but there are published books structured the way yours is. I doubt that's what hinder sales.

There are ways to make things simpler for you, the writer (go with one POV), if that's what you need – if the book is confusing because of the changing POVs. But if the book is not confusing, and there are clear benefits of the current state of POVs, then I see no reason to change it. There are no rules about this – though I think of 'don't change POVs in the middle of a scene' as pretty well a rule, but again, that's about not causing undue reader confusion. Considering it now, in Fallen's novel, this 'rule' may be broken with benefit. So, again, I don't see any sure answers.

Ask yourself why you did it the way you did. Ask yourself what the benefits are. Ask how your book will be the best it can be. Try to keep whether the work is 'worth it' out of your calculations. Also, try not to think of how much time it will take to fix it. These concerns may get in the way of getting accurate answers.

Good luck

BethS · Jul 4, 2012

I've read a number of novels that do this. It's not confusing. It's just a way of telling the story.

In your third-person segments, just make sure you establish the POV in the first line or so of the scene. Or you can do what some authors have done and label the chapters with the characters' names. No possibility of confusion there.

Sara by the Sea · Jul 4, 2012

katebranden said:
However, it's really important that the characters have different voices. If they're too similar, the reader may forget who's speaking mid-chapter and get confused.

That is crucial, IMO. I've read too many romances that alternate 1st person POVs where I just don't 'hear' any difference in voice. In fact, I assume both voices are the author's voice, and not the characters. Then I start to forget who's 'head' I'm in in a particular chapter. Granted, I read mostly m/m so it's a little more confusing, but I really think that if the characters don't have unique voices, alternating 1st person POV comes off as weak.

My opinion (which I know others don't share) is to keep a 1st person romance in only one POV. If you get both sides of the story from inside the characters' heads, the romance becomes less of a mystery. And romance really is a mystery b/c we can never truly understand what goes on in another person's heart...(sorry, getting sappy).

guttersquid · Jul 13, 2012

Write it the way you wanted to. There is no wrong way.

You felt passionate about the way you wrote it and didn't doubt yourself until others butted in. Trust yourself.

Besides, you're self-publishing. The only editor you have to please is you!

WriteMinded · Jul 14, 2012

guttersquid said:
Write it the way you wanted to. There is no wrong way.

You felt passionate about the way you wrote it and didn't doubt yourself until others butted in. Trust yourself.

Besides, you're self-publishing. The only editor you have to please is you!

Well, we "butted in" because we were invited to.

A Question of Tense

oldhousejunkie

Kerosene

Your Pixie Queen

oldhousejunkie

Kerosene

Your Pixie Queen

oldhousejunkie

Horserider

Ever onward

jeffo20

Tyrant King

ishtar'sgate

living in the past

oldhousejunkie

Horserider

Ever onward

oldhousejunkie

toomanycarbs

Little Anonymous Me

jaksen

Caped Codder

katebranden

Shapeshifters FTW

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

Iustefan

slow going but enjoying it

WriteMinded

Derailed

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

DeaK

BethS

Sara by the Sea

plugging away

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.

WriteMinded

Derailed