A Dance with Dragons by George R. R. Martin

[Parametric]

SPOILER THREAD for discussion of A Dance with Dragons, the fifth book of George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, released on the 12th of July. You may encounter HIDEOUS UNMARKED SPOILERS for anything up to and including A Dance with Dragons, including the TV series and the tie-in Dunk & Egg short stories.

[Parametric]

So...

Holy shit.

Just about every crackpot Targaryen theory either came true or was strongly hinted at. We now have two living Targaryens, plus two suggested Targaryen bastards: Tyrion and Jon. A Targaryen finally invaded Westeros, but not the one everyone was thinking of.

Jon has been stabbed repeatedly and appears dead.

Stannis is also supposedly dead.

The northmen are staggeringly badass. Wyman Manderly killed three Freys and cooked them in pies and laughed as he ate them. Also the north apparently creates badass girls: Alys Karstark, the Manderly kid, and Lyanna Mormont, the She-Bear, to name but three.

Barristan Selmy and Davos Seaworth are vying for the title of nicest guy most in need of a hug.

Cersei was ritually humiliated, and Qyborg-Gregor is going to be her champion in her trial by combat.

Poor Theon has won back my sympathy by dint of being wretchedly abused and traumatised.

Did I miss anything?

[BunnyMaz]

Some thoughts.

I do not trust this Karstark bastard's claim to having killed Stannis. Undoubtedly, Stannis was a complete idiot, but I would not have expected even an ignoble death of his to happen off-page. Not to mention the bastard seems a tricksy sort of fellow. I do hate his wife with a burning passion though, so would quite like to see her brought low.

I do not believe that Jon is dead. But if he is, I expect an opening chapter in the next book to be from Snow/Ghost's POV. Wildly unsupported fan wankery follows! All the Starks die. Except maybe Sansa. All are reborn wargily into their wolves. Except Sansa who is too much of a pussy to be a warg. Stark direwolf pack grows into the hundreds and transforms the North into an uninhabited waste, slaying any Southron men that dare set foot near there. Children of the forest, giants, wildlings and wargs retake the North in their stead. The wall falls when whoever tries to replace Jon finds the wildlings are a- less happy to meekly fall before some arsehole who thinks they're savages and b- much harder to fend off when on both sides of the wall.

I totally get where people are getting the Jon-is-dragon thing. We know nothing of his mother, but we do know his aunt was raped and butchered by the last Targaryen king. But whenceforth this theory of Tyrion-is-Targaryen? We know for a fact that Tyrion's father was the late Tywin Lannister and his mother was the same mother shared by Cersei and Jaime.

Three headed dragon may need a rethink. We have two definite heads- Dany and her suddenly reappeared brother. If Snow is one, he definitely isn't dead, but if he is dead then I don't see how Tyrion can be one. He knows a shit-ton about dragons for sure, but I don't see how he has any more dragonsblood in him than any other blonde-ish noble in Westeros. I absolutely do not want any of the Greyjoys or other Ironborn getting a dragon. I hope Dany laughs in pirateface pork-scratching-hand's face when he comes to her to try and take her for his own.

I slightly mislike where ADWD is headed. A major player (previously thought dead Targaryen prince whose name I have forgotten) turns up in the latter half of the game, just as the only current pretender to Tommen's throne apparently dies. I don't like having my many books worth of theorising made worthless by deus ex machina, so I dearly hope that isn't what this new lad will turn out to be.

Cyborg Gregor! Undead like Mrs Ned whose name I have also temporarily forgotten? Headless and undead, with his skull actually really for real being sent to the Dornish?

I wanted more Sam! Poor, poor scared Sam Tarly. How is he?

Also, Children of the forest still live! People turned into tree-root zombies in totally creepy ways!

Theon totally had his genitals flayed and cut off as well as fingers and toes. They never said it out loud, but he blatantly did.

[BunnyMaz]

Another thought.

Has anyone else noticed how MESSILY everyone in the books eats? I mean, everyone from the lowest peasant to vain Queen Cersei is described at some point as eating meat in such a way that liquid fat and blood drips down their chins. Even fruit gets sprayed across their faces. Every time we have a scene where some nobles are gathering to discuss issues of political intrigue and they decide to have a working lunch, I have this image of them doing it all covered in grease and gravy and blood. I dread to think how they look after their apparently semi-regular breakfasts of porridge.

Can you imagine what would happen if you gave them spag bol for dinner?

[Emerson]

I loved the book.

Best thing in it was Wyman Manderly and his Frey pies.

[MkMoore]

Manderly was awesome! I laughed so hard...

As far as JON....It doesn't make ANY sense for him to be dead. There are just too many unfulfilled promises. If GRRM has just killed him off to MESS with us, then I will lose most of my respect for him. He either has to live through it or be revived.

I wouldn't necessarily count on Aegon for a dragon. He's a wild card at the moment.

Not sure how Tyrion could be a Targaryen (some theory I've missed?), but I've always thought it would be badass if he got a dragon. I totally called him joining up with Dany. I'm annoyed he never actually got there, since he could have completely fixed everything she screwed up.

I have to wonder, though, what was the point of Quentyn Martell? A whole plotline just to end with death by dragonfire?

[Libbie]

HEY-YO! My hell-divorce has left me with little time for reading, but I finally finished the book last night while standing in line to get it signed by Mr. Martin (yay!) so here I am in the spoiler thread to share my worthless opinion! (Not so worthless, methinks, since I am one of the biggest ASOIAF fans you'll ever meet and I've read all the books but this one seven or eight times. I am mighty familiar with 'em.)

Originally Posted by MkMoore

Manderly was awesome! I laughed so hard...

Dude. Let's hear it for the Titus Andronicus moment! I loved it! I also loved that Manderly's fatty-fatness saved him from death. And I loved that he (so far) hasn't confessed to making everybody eat Frey Pie. It makes it somehow more awesome, like it's a secret we all share with him.

As far as JON....It doesn't make ANY sense for him to be dead. There are just too many unfulfilled promises. If GRRM has just killed him off to MESS with us, then I will lose most of my respect for him. He either has to live through it or be revived.

This is as far as I've read so far in this thread, so hopefully somebody else has pointed this out already, but...Melisandre. Jon is in direct, friendly contact with the most powerful Red Priestess in the world (that we know of.) She seems very intent on communicating with Jon and on keeping him alive in spite of his subtle moves against Stannis. She knows he's important.

If Thoros of Myr, a shoddy and half-hearted Red Priest, could bring Berrick Dondarrion and Catelyn back from the dead so many times with the Red God's Kiss, then Melisandre can surely do the same for Jon without any trouble...if he died at all. He may well have been badly injured and may pull through on his own, with the help of his warginess.

The interesting spin on this is how it might potentially change him if he's brought back from death by R'hllor's power. Hmmmm.

And yes, I do believe Jon is too important to kill before the big final battle against the Others. The series is titled A Song of Ice and Fire, which is shown to be a direct reference to Jon when Dany is in the House of the Undying, having all those crazy-ass visions. It's not out of the realm of possibility that GRRM would kill off a character that important, but Jon's death now would seem to serve little purpose. Ned's death early on was the catalyst that set all the rest of the subplots in motion, so it served a major purpose. Jon would appear (at this point) to be of more use to the plot alive than dead. But it is GRRM, so we'll see.

Anyway, speaking of GRRM, somebody asked him last night as the reading/signing if it's hard for him to kill off his characters. He got a tiny bit emotional explaining how it is very, very difficult to do so -- how he spends chapters, sometimes whole books thinking and feeling through these characters' POVs, and he doesn't kill any of them off lightly. IF Jon is actually, permanently dead, then I think you can trust that it was done because the author felt it was the best way to serve the story, and not just to throw a curve-ball at his fans. He really doesn't seem like the kind of guy to do that to his readers.

I wouldn't necessarily count on Aegon for a dragon. He's a wild card at the moment.

My initial impression of Aegon is that he's too good and too perfect, with all his careful Varys-led training, to last in GRRM's world. More likely he'll be a martyr than a hero. He went west instead of going to find Dany, and now Dany's strength is scattered and she's only got one partially-trained dragon. Two more are still out of her reach and certainly out of her control, since she made it plain that the dragons will only allow certain riders. Now Aegon's got a long, treacherous wait for his dragon to show up...

Not sure how Tyrion could be a Targaryen (some theory I've missed?), but I've always thought it would be badass if he got a dragon. I totally called him joining up with Dany. I'm annoyed he never actually got there, since he could have completely fixed everything she screwed up.

...Meanwhile, Tyrion is quite close to the dragons. Nobody ever said that a person has to have the dragon's blood to ride a dragon. That is, the dragons won't necessarily reject a rider because he's not a Targaryen. What do dragons care about human society? Rather, the implication was that people with the blood of the dragon are fearless around the dragons, and that helps the dragons accept them. Tyrion would likely be more drawn to the dragons than fearful of them.

And yes, he is certainly the right kind of mind to assist Dany and balance her soft side. And Selmy's. I think the popular prediction that Tyrion will prove to be one of the heads of the dragon will turn out to be true.

I have to wonder, though, what was the point of Quentyn Martell? A whole plotline just to end with death by dragonfire?

No...now Aegon is in or near Dorne (I can't recall which), and Dorne will be mighty pissed that their prince is returning to them as a sack of charred bones, with the rumor that Dany laughed at his offer of marriage. Quentyn's death will be a catalyst for Dorne to turn against Daenerys, possible to spell the demise of Aegon, which will further fuel Dany's feeling that Westeros has wronged her and needs to be dragon-baked. My guess is that they'll use Myrcella against her, setting her up as a child queen...Dany has a serious reluctance to kill little children, and having a cute, somewhat pathetic, earless little girl with a sweet little boy husband on the throne will be like Kryptonite to Dany.

The Quentyn thing will prove to be more important than it seems at first blush. I think it will spell the end of Aegon, personally.

[Parametric]

The fans have been theorising for years that Tyrion is the bastard son of Aerys Targaryen and thus one of the three heads of the dragon. As I understand it, the evidence is:

(1) Tyrion is obsessed with dragons and often dreams about them;
(2) Tyrion is often referred to as a bastard, such as his frequent refrain that "all dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes"; and
(3) it would be awesome.

In the latest book Barristan confirmed that Aerys was interested in Tyrion's mother, Joanna Lannister, taking "liberties" at her wedding. It's not proof, but I think it's a strong hint that one of the fandom's favourite theories may in future be confirmed.

[MkMoore]

That makes sense, I guess...I'll have to look for that when I reread. It would be awesome.

[BunnyMaz]

In the latest book Barristan confirmed that Aerys was interested in Tyrion's mother, Joanna Lannister, taking "liberties" at her wedding.

Problem there is, Tyriom is the youngest child. That would make a better argument for Jaime and Cersei, depending on how soon after the marriage they were born, than for Tyrion.

[Parametric]

Originally Posted by BunnyMaz

Problem there is, Tyriom is the youngest child. That would make a better argument for Jaime and Cersei, depending on how soon after the marriage they were born, than for Tyrion.

Oh, I know. I'm not suggesting that Aerys slept with Joanna on her wedding night - that would have been a scandal of apocalyptic proportions. I just think that after Barristan's story, it's a lot more likely that Aerys was involved with Joanna in some way, possibly leading to Tyrion. It's not a rock-solid theory at the moment, but I could definitely see the series going that way.

[dragonjax]

Part of the problem with reading ADWD for long nights this week is that I clearly missed some big things. Case in point: Frey pie. DAMN IT. I'd say I need to reread, but no. No!

The Tyrion-as-Targaryen possibility is AWESOME. Oh MAN. That would be fabulous.

Here's the thing, though: if that's the case, the dragon would then have four heads: Dany, Aegon, Tyrion...and Jon. Because Jon has to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Not a rape. A secret love. And when Lyanna lay dying, she got her brother Ned to swear to raise Jon as his own bastard, to protect him from the wrath of King Robert, who would have slaughtered baby Jon. And we're going to witness this a la Super Bran, who now has the spiffy ability to see the past. It's gonna ROCK!!!

So yeah - the dragon would have four heads. Which we can't have. I'm thinking that Aegon won't be long for Westeros. He's too new to the series, and throws everything off. He's also, clearly, perfect, as per the Spider: he sounds like the ultimate Gary Stu. (Or maybe that's a Targaryen thing; there are times when Dany is borderline Mary Sue.)

And OMG. Jon is SO not dead. Nope. No way. Nuh uh. But PLEASE don't bring him back from the dead a la Gregor/Robert Strong. Or Berric. Or Catelyn. Jon deserves more than that. (But then, Ned deserved more than getting his head chopped off in book one.)

Coldhands has to be Benjen. Right?

And goodbye, Kevan and Pyrelle. Dude. Just...dude.

[MkMoore]

Originally Posted by dragonjax

And OMG. Jon is SO not dead. Nope. No way. Nuh uh. But PLEASE don't bring him back from the dead a la Gregor/Robert Strong. Or Berric. Or Catelyn. Jon deserves more than that. (But then, Ned deserved more than getting his head chopped off in book one.)

Coldhands has to be Benjen. Right?

Coldhands is probably Benjen. He kept his face covered while he was with Bran, and I always thought it was weird that he just "vanished."

If Jon is alive (or is reborn), then he's probably Azor Ahai. I was kind of mad when I finished the book, but I'm pretty much convinced this is where he's heading now. If he really is dead, I'm going to be furious.

[Libbie]

Originally Posted by dragonjax

And we're going to witness this a la Super Bran, who now has the spiffy ability to see the past. It's gonna ROCK!!!

We might witness it that way, but how will Jon find out? Bran can't communicate via the trees, except for a word here and there.

(Answer: Howland Reed. He's the last living person who definitely knows about Jon's true birth, and he's still hanging around the marshes somewhere. Once Jon recovers from this minor...ahem...setback, he plans to go south...and that will take him to or near Moat Cailin.)

So yeah - the dragon would have four heads. Which we can't have. I'm thinking that Aegon won't be long for Westeros. He's too new to the series, and throws everything off. He's also, clearly, perfect, as per the Spider: he sounds like the ultimate Gary Stu. (Or maybe that's a Targaryen thing; there are times when Dany is borderline Mary Sue.)

I think you're right. I think Aegon is a lamb led to the slaughter.

And OMG. Jon is SO not dead. Nope. No way. Nuh uh. But PLEASE don't bring him back from the dead a la Gregor/Robert Strong. Or Berric. Or Catelyn. Jon deserves more than that. (But then, Ned deserved more than getting his head chopped off in book one.)

Oh, Berric was still a good guy when he was brought back. Death changed his perspective a little, but he was still good. and he only said that it got harder to keep himself together with repeated bringings-back. Jon ought to be fine (relatively) with just one.

Coldhands has to be Benjen. Right?

Obv.

And goodbye, Kevan and Pyrelle. Dude. Just...dude.

I actually kind of liked Kevan.

Originally Posted by Parametric

My secret theory is that Aegon represents the classic fantasy hero. He's the secret heir to the throne, raised in exile by loyal retainers, trained to be a king - he's basically Garion from the Belgariad. And he's going to be eaten alive.

I think you are absolutely right about that, in all respects.

GRRM talked a bit last night about how typical fantasy, with the regular cast of characters and the predictable outcomes for all the good guys, is "comfort fiction." Just like comfort food, it's all you want sometimes, it's a good thing, and everybody indulges in it, even him. But that's not what he's interested in writing. He wants to write uncomfortable fiction.

That right there is the biggest clue to me that Aegon is going to meet his end. Aegon is too "comfort fiction" for ASOIAF.

Originally Posted by Parametric

I'm not so sure he would have cold-bloodedly murdered the infant son of his beloved wife.

I think he would have if he'd thought for a heartbeat that Tyrion was Aerys's bastard. Remember, Joanna died birthing Tyrion. That's why Tywin hated Tyrion so much, not because he thought Tyrion was the product of cuckolding. No man is as accursed as a kinslayer...so as long as Tywin had reason to believe Tyrion was his biological son, he wouldn't kill him, even though he hated him for "killing" Joanna. It would be easy to smother an infant with a pillow if he believed it to be not his own blood and the cause of his beloved wife's death.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced yet that Tyrion has Targaryen blood. But that won't stop him from becoming a dragon rider, methinks.

If Jon is alive (or is reborn), then he's probably Azor Ahai. I was kind of mad when I finished the book, but I'm pretty much convinced this is where he's heading now. If he really is dead, I'm going to be furious.

Seems pretty obvious to me that Dany is Azor Ahai. Melisandre has already proven -- and in ADWD actually admitted -- that she's not precise with her reading of prophecy. She gets a lot right, but important details are often blurred. Such as, perhaps, the gender of Azor Ahai.

Originally Posted by TCnKC

AFFC & ADWD definitely could've been structured better. I think even Martin himself would admit that. The first 300-400 pages of ADWD were basically just rehashing events of AFFC in different character POVs.

They were originally written as one book, and were intended to be one book. But he got up to 1500 manuscript pages and his editors had a little sit-down with him and convinced him to split it into two books. That was, in part, what delayed both books coming out. He had to figure out where and how to separate all that intermingled plot, all taking place within the same time frame, and organize it into two logical volumes that felt "right" together. The total ms pages for AFFC ended up being 1000 (or close to it) an ADWD ended up being over 1700 before editing.

Originally Posted by zander

Although that would eliminate the Bank of Braavos thread, which is intending to bear fruit later, I'm sure.

I think the Bank of Braavos is going to pay somebody with an iron coin. Just not sure who yet.

I think Jon will be back, either resurrected by Melisandre, or in Ghost, (what an appropriate name now) or some combination thereof. He's now released from his vows so he can do whatever he wants, right?

Yep -- if he dies and is brought back, he's free from his vows. The watch ends at death. Though whether Jon will see it that way is iffy.

I totally didn't get that Manderly was cooking Freys. Where was this? Specifically, what page? I want to read it again.

You know that scene where Ramsay marries "Arya," and they have a big wedding feast, and a whole lot of pork dishes are served, and Manderly gets all excited about eating a lot of meat products...? And Lady Dustin is kind of rolling her eyes over how this is supposedly THE BEST PORK PIE IN THE WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD according to Manderly? And a few Freys are said to be missing? It's never said outright that Manderly cooked and served them, but the implication is pretty clear.

I also think Bran is going to inhabit a dragon and blow the hell out of some Others.

That seems like a good possibility. I also don't see Bran committing himself to being a tree-dude long-term.

The Quentyn Martell thing is vexing. I'm not sure it's not all part of Doran Martell's grand plan though - he's been so cautious and sly this whole time, I can't believe sending six guys to wed Danaerys to his uncharismatic son was his whole point.

No, no...Quentyn knew that, too. He said somewhere in one of his last chapters that the road was never TO Daenerys, but THROUGH her. Quentyn's real mission was to loose the dragons...to bring the dragons to Dorne if he could. The surest way to do that would have been by marrying Dany, but she rejected him...but his mission still stood.

Poor Quent got them out of the pit, at least.

Also, the prophecy says Azor Ahai will be reborn under a bleeding red star:

Jon was stabbed while WunWun was waving around the body of Ser Patrek and the sigil of his house is a star, plus his outfit had stars, covered in blood.

From amidst salt and smoke:

- His wound was "smoking"
- Bowen Marsh's tears = salt

Ooh! Okay, that comes closer to convincing me. That's the kind of subtlety GRRM uses. All right, I am open to either Jon or Dany being Azor Ahai reborn. Although Jon is too strong a personality to just be whatever Melisandre wants him to be. If he is AA, my guess is he takes control of the prophecy and turns it into his own thing.

[Parametric]

Originally Posted by Libbie

I think he would have if he'd thought for a heartbeat that Tyrion was Aerys's bastard. Remember, Joanna died birthing Tyrion. That's why Tywin hated Tyrion so much, not because he thought Tyrion was the product of cuckolding. No man is as accursed as a kinslayer...so as long as Tywin had reason to believe Tyrion was his biological son, he wouldn't kill him, even though he hated him for "killing" Joanna. It would be easy to smother an infant with a pillow if he believed it to be not his own blood and the cause of his beloved wife's death.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced yet that Tyrion has Targaryen blood. But that won't stop him from becoming a dragon rider, methinks.

They'd still be related. Tywin and Joanna were first cousins, so any child of Joanna's would be Tywin's first cousin once removed.

I definitely think there's been way too much bastard stuff about Tyrion for it to be a coincidence. Tywin is continually telling him that he's not his son, Tyrion makes comments about all dwarfs being bastards in their fathers' eyes, etc.

[Irysangel]

Originally Posted by Parametric

Oh, I know. I'm not suggesting that Aerys slept with Joanna on her wedding night - that would have been a scandal of apocalyptic proportions.

Really? I thought it was a nod to the droit du seigneur:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

[Parametric]

Originally Posted by Irysangel

Really? I thought it was a nod to the droit du seigneur:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

I don't think so. We know from the Barristan Selmy scene in A Dance with Dragons that the droit du seigneur had been abolished prior to the wedding of Tywin and Joanna Lannister. We also know from A Storm of Swords that during the bedding the newlyweds are basically carried upstairs by all the guests, so it wouldn't be possible to sleep with the bride on her wedding night without everybody knowing about it. That's why I'm saying that Aerys can't have slept with Joanna on her wedding night - people would have known, it would have been illegal, and there would have been a scandal. None of the above happened.

[Parametric]

My secret theory is that Aegon represents the classic fantasy hero. He's the secret heir to the throne, raised in exile by loyal retainers, trained to be a king - he's basically Garion from the Belgariad. And he's going to be eaten alive.

[jgold]

Yeah. Jon can't be dead. That white dragon was just made for him.

So, about the epilogue... which I loved. So nice to get a clue about Varys' motivation after all this time. And I can't help but wonder if Varys is in service to the same temple where Arya's been?

I agree that Aegon is going to die a horrible freaking death.

[NoGuessing]

I don't think Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys. Tywin would have killed him.

[NoGuessing]

Also, Wyman Manderley is the first Mafia boss of Westeros.

[Parametric]

Originally Posted by NoGuessing

I don't think Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys. Tywin would have killed him.

I'm not so sure he would have cold-bloodedly murdered the infant son of his beloved wife. We do know that Tywin visited some serious wrath on Aerys, slaughtering his entire family and brutally sacking his city. Moreover, we know one major reason Tywin was so pissed off was that Aerys raised Jaime to the Kingsguard, deliberately leaving Tywin with only Tyrion as his heir... which would be an insult on a whole new level if Aerys had fathered Tyrion himself. I'm not a hundred percent wedded to the theory, but I do find it increasingly plausible.

[NoGuessing]

Originally Posted by Parametric

My secret theory is that Aegon represents the classic fantasy hero. He's the secret heir to the throne, raised in exile by loyal retainers, trained to be a king - he's basically Garion from the Belgariad. And he's going to be eaten alive.

You think Manderley will be the one to get him?

[Parametric]

Originally Posted by NoGuessing

You think Manderley will be the one to get him?

Ha! I would find that most excellent.

[thothguard51]

Very few characters in this series are really dead it seems. They keep popping back up in one way or another...