Please help: Is this science fiction or fantasy?

[fihr]

Please help me decide whether my story is sci-fi or fantasy.

A crippled boy comes of age in a tribe with stone-age technology. He battles an enormous scaled and feathered beast, which is the height of twenty tribesmen.

The world is earth-like but imaginary. The beast is pure fiction, like a cross between a non-existent dinosaur and a griffin. Unlike a griffin, the beast is not magical. The tribe's belief in spirits is an important part of the story, but again there is no magic.

The story is speculative, in a time and place that never existed on earth, but no magic. The lack of tech is integral to the story (as opposed to the presence of it.)

I'm reluctant to call it science fiction, because it isn't science or the real past at all. The only non-fantasy aspect is that magic has not been used.

It would also be easy for me to take this story and weave magic into the lives of the characters at a later point. But for this tale to work, the character has to rely solely on his own ingenuity.

(It's about 6,600 words. If anyone would like to look at it to help me decide, I could put a snippet up. I'm also keen to get beta readers, though that will go in another thread. I know its too long just to put it all here.)

[Yorkist]

This is a bit tough. Fantasy does not have to have magic. But if the lack of technology of any sort is integral to the narrative, if that's the most important aspect in terms of your world, then the narrative is defined in terms of science, even if it's in terms of its absence. At least, that's what I think.

Sometimes it's not very easy to delineate between sci-fi and fantasy, e.g. Anne McCaffrey.

[fihr]

Thanks for your reply, Yorkist.

Hmm. When I wrote it, I thought of it as fantasy, because of the fantastic creature and unreal world.

The lack of technology is important in that it establishes a Stone Age culture, but the story is about the character's journey and courage, rather than making any particular points about technology. (It's not a thought experiment, if that makes sense.) In a way, he just so happens to live in a Stone Age, rather than the story being about a Stone Age. But he faces certain challenges as a result of being in that context.

Does that help?

[Yorkist]

Originally Posted by fihr

Thanks for your reply, Yorkist.

Hmm. When I wrote it, I thought of it as fantasy, because of the fantastic creature and unreal world.

TBH, I'm probably the last person who participates in this subforum that should be talking about genre, but I'm awake, so there ya go. Most of the fiction that I like doesn't fit neatly into any one genre, and I like all genres to one degree or another (though SFF aspects are my favorite), so I'm rather new to thinking about them in general.

So, FWIW, from my perspective, the "tropes" (fantastical creatures, for example) matter less than the point of the narrative. And:

The lack of technology is important in that it establishes a Stone Age culture, but the story is about the character's journey and courage, rather than making any particular points about technology. (It's not a thought experiment, if that makes sense.)

I get what you're saying, but I think this kind of narrative arc can occur in any genre, from western to gothic romance.

Sci-fi doesn't have to be a thought experiment, either. No more than fantasy has to have magic. IMO.

Re: the tribes' belief in spirits (which I missed earlier) - that could either be sci-fi or fantasy depending on, well, the point. So much of psychological sci-fi deals with the presence or absence of God, but... just because fantasy doesn't deal with this as often (or as personally) doesn't mean it can't be there.

Dammit, I'm giving myself a headache. Stupid genre.

In a way, he just so happens to live in a Stone Age, rather than the story being about a Stone Age. But he faces certain challenges as a result of being in that context.

Does that help?

Not really! Like I said, I'm not so good with defining genre, but I'll be happy to read it and give my perspective. I'm pretty sure some of my posts around here are more than 6600 words... I might be interested in the themes and I might not, I can't really tell from your posts, but I'll give it a shot if'n you want me to. Just send me a PM when you have it up somewhere.

FYI, don't post it here - take it to SYW, it's password-protected and google-fu proofed.

[WillSauger]

Does it matter?

If it's made up/cannot be created = Fantasy.

Imagination creates fantasy. If science (at the moment) has no way of creating it, it's fantasy.



But, I believe anything we can imagine can exist and will/has. All possibilities are possibilities.

[Future Shock]

Originally Posted by WildScribe

If it were, then there wouldn't be a debate on a board full of experienced sci-fi and fantasy authors.

Not much of a debate, the opinions posted are all calling it fantasy, with a few posts waffling about definitions.

That's unhelpful and somewhat rude. Also incomplete. Would you care to share your Ultimate Definition with the rest of us?

I'm not sure why me saying this...

Originally Posted by WillSauger

If it's made up/cannot be created = Fantasy. If science (at the moment) has no way of creating it, it's fantasy.

is a bad definition gets your back up. It's not as bad as some I've seen, but it moves large swaths of fiction we know are SF into the fantasy category. I could trundle us through a list of authors and works, but I think one will do. Asimov's robot stories. Definitively SF, yet the poor definition above puts them in fantasy because the eponymous automatons cannot be build, at the moment.

Likewise much of Heinlein, Dick, Bradbury, Wells, Verne, Vinge, and entire subgenres of science fiction, such as most steampunk, as well as all space opera, time travel, and cyberpunk... I could go on, and on.

ETA: In fact, even the hard SF fans I know who insist that only hard SF is "real SF" would object to the above, as it excludes many/most of their gems as well.

[fihr]

It only matters in that I have to categorise this story for a critique.

I haven't worried about the laws of physics or biology. (Though I haven't knowingly broken any.)

Low fantasy?

[Once!]

Sounds like Beowulf. If it were set in an alternative earth history, I'd say historical epic. But on a made up world? Seems to have fantasy written all over it, regardless of whether it has magic or not.

I googled the 2007 film Beowulf. That seemed to be pitched at a fantasy audience.

Can't see anything in your plot which says science fiction to me.

[waylander]

It takes place in a made-up world = Fantasy.

[defcon6000]

Originally Posted by waylander

It takes place in a made-up world = Fantasy.

Arrakis is a made-up world, does that make Dune a fantasy? (I know that's kind of a trick question, but sci-fi just as often creates made-up worlds.)

To the OP: From your description I'd call it fantasy. It's a secondary-world and the science/technology isn't inherent to the story. But if you're really worried about it, could always post a bit of it in SYW.

[Yorkist]

Originally Posted by defcon6000

Arrakis is a made-up world, does that make Dune a fantasy? (I know that's kind of a trick question, but sci-fi just as often creates made-up worlds.)

Dune also has made-up creatures, FWIW.

To the OP: From your description I'd call it fantasy.

That's what it sounds like to me, too, I just can't say absolutely positively. But if fantasy is the OP's intent then fantasy is what it probably is.

[dclary]

Originally Posted by waylander

It takes place in a made-up world = Fantasy.

Per Tolkien's definition -- if that made up world can be gotten to via direct travel <> fantasy. For him, Gulliver's Travels would have qualified as Science Fiction.

[onesecondglance]

I don't know how I'd define either SF or fantasy, but I wouldn't say your story is SF. If it's a binary choice between the two then by that logic it must be fantasy!

[fihr]

Yorkist - thanks for your further thoughts and your kind offer. It's not ready to post, but if I do, I will PM you. (But I will also understand if you just glance at it, to give a view, or if you don't have time to read.)

Once! Your thoughts do make me happier to label it fantasy. It's not as mythical in quality as Beowulf, but definitely a made up world.

Waylander and onesecondglance - great to have some concurring thoughts. That's a big help.

[Future Shock]

On topic: That's pure fantasy.

Off topic: I also object to the poor definition of science fiction used here.

[WildScribe]

Originally Posted by Future Shock

On topic: That's pure fantasy.

If it were, then there wouldn't be a debate on a board full of experienced sci-fi and fantasy authors.

Off topic: I also object to the poor definition of science fiction used here.

That's unhelpful and somewhat rude. Also incomplete. Would you care to share your Ultimate Definition with the rest of us?

[GingerGunlock]

I would call it Fantasy.

[dclary]

This is a fantastical version of Clan of the Cave Bear. The key word there is fantastical.

Fantasy.

[fihr]

Thanks everyone for giving your opinions. The fact that sci-fi also often uses made up worlds is why I was not sure what genre to label it. It's interesting that the Clan of the Cave Bear books are viewed as fantasy, since I gather vast quantities of research went into that series, and it is set on Earth. I haven't read it, but its one of those series that I should read... my list is so long! And I read a lot!

Dune was set on another world in what felt like a futuristic setting. (Of course I've read all the original Dune series.) It was like Star Wars, not in its premise, but for me, in its feel, in the sense that there were huge technologies and cultures from all over the place, with a galactic import. When I think of galaxies, I think of sci fi, even if the cultures shown are primitive. I also think of sci fi when things are futuristic. When things are set in past eras, to me, they take on a more fantastic flavour. Even Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, set on Earth a few centuries back, feels more fantastic than sci fi, and I guess its an historical fantasy (maybe someone has a better term) even though it has characters like Isaac Newton in there.

(Mind you, Neal Stephenson's latest that I've read, Anathem, is hard to categorise. It really blurs the line between sci fi and fantasy in some ways, though there is no magic, and explores philosophy as much as technology... but I'd have to call it sci fi in the end.)

So I'm feeling that I'll go for fantasy, and this has been thought provoking. I wonder if stories set in the past (that don't involve time travel, alien tech or futuristic tech, as opposed to mesolithic or neolithic tech) are usually designated fantasy, as opposed to sci fi for those set in the future.

I might still choose to put a piece up in SYW when its ready, to confirm.

[dclary]

I guess, looking at how Amazon has it categorized, CotCB is officially "Historical Fiction."

I think here's your problem with prehistoric science fiction:

SciFi very often deals with the possible. Jules Verne imagined the submarine. Not only possible, but damn, there's the Red October right there.

If you were to write 20,000 leagues under the sea today, it would be considered a fantasy, or possibly just a historical fiction action/adventure. Why? Because the science is already established. All that's left are the fantastical elements (and a giant squid isn't *that* fantastical).

If you set your story in the past, you either have to: make an effort to show how in your alternate past, science was discovered "differently" -- this lets you have "steampunk"-style scifi. Or call it fantasy if it's not set on earth.

[fihr]

dclary that's a great summary. I think I feel comfortable labelling it fantasy now, even though there's no magic. Your thoughts about how 'alternate' pasts could relate to sci fi or not really help. Thanks.

[fihr]

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/show...89#post7269389

I've put the first two scenes up in the SYW area, in case anyone feels like having a peek just to confirm the fantasy diagnosis. I am now pretty confident that fantasy is the right label. Thanks everyone for your help.

[WriteMinded]

Fantasy.