I Have a Confession to Make...

[mrsvalkyrie]

Okay. Here goes...

I have no idea what a noun is. Or a verb. Or a conjunction. Or a preposition. None of it.

I have some vague idea here and there, but if you asked me whether a specific word was (insert term), I would guess.

I've tried to learn it--believe me! I aced all of my English classes. But when it came to that stuff... it just never clicked.

Yet, when I write, it just flows. It comes out the way it should most of the time. It's not always perfect, but I know which words to use where and it's not because I know that you can't put verbs before whatever or nouns after...??? I just know it's right because... well, I don't know. Maybe because I've read enough to know what's right? Maybe it's because my mother ingrained in me the proper "etiquette" for the English language? (My best friend swears I'm the only person he's ever met who pronounces "sophomore" correctly, haha.)

My question is, should I try studying it again? I have a ton of books on the subject in case a question ever arises while I'm writing, but I have yet to use them while actually writing. Occasionally, I'll flip through them and take notes, but as soon as I close the book, I've already forgotten everything I read.

Thanks for any help anyone can give... And just to have it be said, and please don't take this as me being rude in any way, I am aware that my posts may not be as "correct" despite what I am saying, but since I view this as an "informal" environment, I find no need to pick apart every word in my posts to make sure there's nothing someone can point at and say "oh, man, look what you did there!! And you call yourself a writer? Blasphemy!!!" When it comes to writing books, well, it's different.

Again, thanks for all your help! :-)

[WillSauger]

Google: Noun. Read the results. Move on.

I can speak from experience, I used to be like you. I knew grammar and how to make sentences, but nothing of the rules and guidelines behind everything.

Recommended reading:
Webster's pocket, grammer, usage and punctuation
The Elements of Style

Hope this helps.

[mrsvalkyrie]

Thanks, WillSauger.

I have Webster's, and Elements of Style was lent to me by a friend who is also a writer several months back. I'll try to read them again. The problem is that I don't understand half of it (I don't learn that easily, especially from textbooks or things like that; it usually needs to be explained several different ways before I get it) and what I do understand, I forget minutes after reading.

For example, I've always heard and seen examples of active and passive voice all over the place. I never understood it until I read a Cracked article (awesome site in case you've never heard of it) and a writer gave one example where it just clicked and I said to myself, 'how the hell did I never understand that before today?' I knew how to write it, but I didn't know that was what it was called.

[heza]

I can start a fire. I can tell when it's burning hotter and when it's dying down. I don't know the chemical reactions involved, and I'm probably not going to learn. I'm just going to keep starting fires.

We absorb a lot of know-how without necessarily learning the nuts and bolts of it, so don't feel too badly about your lack of formal education on it. You can probably continue to write serviceably (if you do so now) without struggling to learn the terminology.

That said, if you're going to be offering advice on writing sites or if you expect to pursue writing as a profession, it certainly wouldn't hurt you to put in some study.

There are a lot of free grammar website out there. Like Will said, google and start reading the information. You could also take a night class or an online course.

[Once!]

Your writing seems perfectly fine to me. The only thing I might quibble with is the treble !!!s. But apart from that ...

So I wouldn't sweat it. If you write stuff that people will want to read, you'll be absolutely fine.

I suspect that most drafts end up on the reject pile because they have batty plots or purple prose or show not tell, but not grammar. Unless you are miles off, of course. And from what I've seen, you're not.

[fireluxlou]

You're not alone I'm the same too. Except I always struggle with adjectives, verbs and adverbs, it's like the words are foreign to me and my brain won't connect those words to the meaning of the words.

I wouldn't worry about it as long as you know how to use them and correct them.

Sometimes you just need different teaching methods. When I retook maths GCSE my teacher taught me how to do division in a different way and it clicked. Suddenly I could do it. I always felt dumb for not understanding basic mathematics but sometimes learning things different ways can make you understand better.

[Kenn]

Originally Posted by mrsvalkyrie

Okay. Here goes...
I have no idea what a noun is. Or a verb. Or a conjunction. Or a preposition. None of it.

You should really get to know the definitions, at least. Not for the purpose of sentence construction, but so you can check in a dictionary if you are using a word correctly.

[evilrooster]

What taught me grammatical terms, in the end, was studying Latin. I'd done fairly well in school, and I knew that "a noun is a person, place or thing" (my age, let me show it to you!), but it took studying a very complicated dead language to force me to learn the finer points.

I don't recommend it as a quick and easy way.

[bearilou]

Originally Posted by evilrooster

What taught me grammatical terms, in the end, was studying Latin. I'd done fairly well in school, and I knew that "a noun is a person, place or thing" (my age, let me show it to you!), but it took studying a very complicated dead language to force me to learn the finer points.

I don't recommend it as a quick and easy way.

Everything I know about English grammar, I learned in German class.

[buzhidao]

Originally Posted by bearilou

Everything I know about English grammar, I learned in German class.

Russian for me. Didn't know direct/indirect object, imperative, etc until it mattered. (Or until it was gone--learned what articles were by not having them.)

Have you tried Mad Libs? Not only are they fun, they are slightly educational.

(And you can have the fairy god "toilet" turn the pumpkin into a giant "fanny", and send the princess off to the "poop".)

[Nymtoc]

Originally Posted by evilrooster

What taught me grammatical terms, in the end, was studying Latin.

That's how I learned how language works, too. I was lucky enough to go to a school where a couple of years of Latin were required. But I wouldn't suggest you start learning Latin now. Instead, follow some of the suggestions of the above posters.

My advice is as follows: Just because something "sounds right" doesn't mean it's correct. A lot of people these days get by with atrocious constructions because for some reason (peer group usage, movies, TV, songs, advertisements) it "sounds right." That is one reason so many native English speakers come up with the most godawful, embarrassing words, phrases and sentences, IMHO.

Do readers notice your linguistic mistakes? You can bet many of them do.

[fireluxlou]

Originally Posted by Nymtoc

That's how I learned how language works, too. I was lucky enough to go to a school where a couple of years of Latin was required. But I wouldn't suggest you start learning Latin now. Instead, follow some of the suggestions of the above posters.

My advice is as follows: Just because something "sounds right" doesn't mean it's correct. A lot of people these days get by with atrocious constructions because for some reason (peer group usage, movies, TV, songs, advertisements) it "sounds right." That is one reason so many native English speakers come up with the most godawful, embarrassing words, phrases and sentences, IMHO.

Do readers notice your linguistic mistakes? You can bet many of them do.

Studying the English Language at university and all its variations around the world, with accents, different pigins, creoles and dialect really opened my mind to there being no correct way to speak or write English. Each word, phrase or sentence has its own purpose in these variations. How they all form differently due to the society, culture and history of the place they begin and start in. There are rules but they are more guidelines rather than being strictly enforced.

[Rufus Coppertop]

Originally Posted by evilrooster

What taught me grammatical terms, in the end, was studying Latin.

You beat me to it!

I don't recommend it as a quick and easy way.

True, but it's definitely fun!

[mrsvalkyrie]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

evilrooster--I actually did study Latin. I failed it. Haha. Spanish, on the other hand, I aced. Maybe I should write all my books in Spanish? Lol.

fireluxlou--Yes, I'm thinking I need a new way to learn it. The books don't do it and my teachers never worked for me. I was in the same position with math, too. I ended up in remedial classes in college and my teacher was amazing. She taught me so much.

Once--Thank you. :-) I don't use multiple exclamation points or anything in my writing, lol, so no worries there. It's more of a way for me to say "I'm dramatically yelling in a way that is completely unnecessary!" Haha.

heza--Thank you as well. I don't intend to ever offer any advice on the subject. My advice only goes as far as "well, it sounds right" or "I'm not so sure about that," or ideas for a direction a writer could go if they request it.

kenn--I do know some of the definitions, but it doesn't help me understand what they do any better, haha. Thank you for your comment.

And thanks to everyone else for their replies. :-)

[meowzbark]

I had a teacher who taught me how to diagram sentences. Learning this taught me what exactly was needed to make a complete sentence and to know how arrangement of a sentence makes a difference in describing things accurately.

Here's a good website that breaks it down step by step: http://drb.lifestreamcenter.net/Lessons/TS/diagram.htm

[bearilou]

Originally Posted by meowzbark

Here's a good website that breaks it down step by step: http://drb.lifestreamcenter.net/Lessons/TS/diagram.htm

That takes me back. I loved diagramming sentences in school.

[Snick]

If you can speak and write well, then don't worry about the definitions and rules. Those are just things that were dreamed up to codify and try to justify what people say and write. The actual living language is much more important than all the rules.

[Terie]

Originally Posted by Snick

If you can speak and write well, then don't worry about the definitions and rules. Those are just things that were dreamed up to codify and try to justify what people say and write.

That's fine for writing one's stories and books.

But if one wants to write professionally -- especially in regards to making changes requested by an editor -- one still is going to have to get one's head around the basic rules. That way, if an editor says something like 'cut down the adverbs', the writer can, yanno, cut down the adverbs.

You don't have to learn all the rules, but you have to learn enough to be able to look up things when necessary. That base of knowledge will be pretty much indispensible once you start writing for money.

One popular resource that's often recommended in this forum is the Grammar section of the Purdue Online Writing Lab.

[heza]

Originally Posted by Terie

One popular resource that's often recommended in this forum is the Grammar section of the Purdue Online Writing Lab.

Oh yeah, I look at that one a lot.

[Haggis]

Originally Posted by evilrooster

What taught me grammatical terms, in the end, was studying Latin. I'd done fairly well in school, and I knew that "a noun is a person, place or thing" (my age, let me show it to you!), but it took studying a very complicated dead language to force me to learn the finer points.

I don't recommend it as a quick and easy way.

That's the way I learned mine too. I suspect that studying any language will help you learn the grammar of your own.

Originally Posted by bearilou

Everything I know about English grammar, I learned in German class.

See? I told you.

evilrooster--I actually did study Latin. I failed it. Haha. Spanish, on the other hand, I aced. Maybe I should write all my books in Spanish? Lol.

Well, maybe it doesn't work all the time.

[Nymtoc]

Originally Posted by Snick

If you can speak and write well, then don't worry about the definitions and rules. Those are just things that were dreamed up to codify and try to justify what people say and write. The actual living language is much more important than all the rules.

I disagree. The language will continue to change, and I am the last person to disapprove of its evolution. However, "the living language," with all its neologisms and unorthodox constructions, is fine for conversation and informal scribblings, but ya gotta get your head round moren that if ya wanna make it as a writer, nomesayin?

"Correct" writing is a set of rules you must know as a professional writer, whether you always choose to follow them or not.

Originally Posted by Terie

....if one wants to write professionally -- especially in regards to making changes requested by an editor -- one still is going to have to get one's head around the basic rules. That way, if an editor says something like 'cut down the adverbs', the writer can, yanno, cut down the adverbs.

You don't have to learn all the rules, but you have to learn enough to be able to look up things when necessary. That base of knowledge will be pretty much indispensible once you start writing for money.

Ditto.

[Snick]

Originally Posted by Nymtoc

I disagree. The language will continue to change, and I am the last person to disapprove of its evolution. However, "the living language," with all its neologisms and unorthodox constructions, is fine for conversation and informal scribblings, but ya gotta get your head round moren that if ya wanna make it as a writer, nomesayin?

"Correct" writing is a set of rules you must know as a professional writer, whether you always choose to follow them or not.



Ditto.

Let's not get into a discussion of the nature of language, but for language to work it must be held in common by a population of users. If everyone simply said whatever words in whatever order they wanted, then it wouldn't be language, unless others used the same words in the same ways. If you think that a word means exactly what you want it to mean regardless of the ordinary usage, then you can't communicate. As I wrote earlier, the rules of grammar are a codification of the ways that people use language to communicate. They are not the rules of an idiolect; although such rules might be interesting. If one communicates well, then there is no reason to study the rules, because that one already knows those rules. If one does not communicate well, then there is reason to study the rules, in order to learn how others use language.

[evilrooster]

Originally Posted by Snick

If one communicates well, then there is no reason to study the rules, because that one already knows those rules. If one does not communicate well, then there is eason to study the rules, in order to learn how others use language.

This is where the rubber meets the road.

"Communicating well" is a complicated thing. There's more to it than hoping that the information you were trying to convey made it into the brain of the other person.

The language that you use allows the reader to come to some conclusions about your educational levels, your cultural background, and even, at times, your gender and character. We all do this, just as we all come to conclusions on people based on their dress and behavior in person.

Controlling your language allows you to control the impression you make on people: to be formal when formality is required, and casual when it's not. If you can do that -- if you can decide how you want to come across and make that work without being able to tell a pronoun from a preposition -- then you don't need to study grammar. But that degree of instinctive control is rare indeed.

[Snick]

Originally Posted by evilrooster

This is where the rubber meets the road.

"Communicating well" is a complicated thing. There's more to it than hoping that the information you were trying to convey made it into the brain of the other person.

The language that you use allows the reader to come to some conclusions about your educational levels, your cultural background, and even, at times, your gender and character. We all do this, just as we all come to conclusions on people based on their dress and behavior in person.

Controlling your language allows you to control the impression you make on people: to be formal when formality is required, and casual when it's not. If you can do that -- if you can decide how you want to come across and make that work without being able to tell a pronoun from a preposition -- then you don't need to study grammar. But that degree of instinctive control is rare indeed.

Yes, yes, yes,

People used language perfectly long before there were any rules of grammar, etc., and some people can do well without knowing the rules.

[Dawnstorm]

mrsvalkyrie, I'm a grammar geek. I know the terms and I know the concepts. And there is no single way to connect the terms and concepts, but people behave as if there were. For example, what is an adverb to one grammarian can be a presposition to another. What is a noun for one grammarian can be an adjective to another. When experts are amongst themselves they either duke it out with pistols at dawn, or they get together and see how they use the terms before they communicate.

When non-experts get together, they use the terms the way they first encountered them, the way they first made sense to them, etc. And they may end up with theoretical stew that doesn't really mix in a systematic manner but makes personal sense. In that case, it's a bit harder to figure out what they mean, though context usually helps.

However, terminology is not the only thing that differs from theory to theory. Concepts do, too. Different theories are better suited to different problems. And different experts have different interests.

Again, non-experts will happily pick up on that, but in a non-systematic manner. For example, some grammar theories (usually those that use "parts of speech") have one concept for "form-and-function-unit", say "adjective". Other theories divide that in two, say "adjective" and "modifier".

Again, non-experts pick up on that in a non-stystematic way, in any way that makes sense.

The real fun is, though, that people (outside of linguistics) tend to think of grammar in terms of "what you should not do". And that's where it becomes especially tricky, because people tell you to learn the basics. But as a native speaker with the ability to communicate you've learned the basics by the time you were five. Most of the "basics" are minor quibbles about details, and often they're not about grammar at all, but about style.

So if you're confused about the terms, don't worry. You're not alone. And it's not your fault. It's a jungle of terms and concepts, and the only way through it is with the help of a guide. Or with a machete.

So, if I look at the term "participle phrase" I immediately want to clarify where the person comes froms. What's the difference between a phrase and a clause? How do participles relate to adjectives? What's the difference between a gerund and a present participle? All of those questions don't have a single, predictable answer. But by answering all those questions you can gauge what the other person means when he says "participle phrase". A matter of minutes for experts. A will-o-the-wisp in the swamp for non-experts.

So what's in it for you? If you read different books on grammar, don't assume that they use the terms in the same way. They may not. If something doesn't make sense to you, it could be that there's something you've missed. But it could also very well be that different sources use an incompatible terminology/concept combo, and you're confused because you think they're talking about the same thing (when they talk about related but slightly different things).

Alternatively, just assert that you're right. Works for many out there.