Writing arguments

[lorna_w]

The truth is, I hate arguing IRL, so much so that it's a strain for me to write it in fiction.

I can get around this to a certain degree, if I choose my genre wisely. I'm revising a Nature v. MC novel now and planning the next. I had an argument in this one, and I kept wanting to truncate it; I had to bear down to stick with it the whole way.

Some of the arguing I can make subtle: people not talking about the elephant in the room, having the internal argument (what POV would say, if only s/he had the guts) be strong while the outer one is more subdued, People can talk at cross-purposes rather than argue. And if it's two people newly hot for each other arguing about petty stuff because they really want to have sex instead, I'm fine with that. So I can get around some of it.

This is a weakness, perhaps a psychological weakness at its core that limits my fictional choices, too. (But don't move me to Conquering Challenges--it's the fictional aspect that troubles me.)

Where to start correcting? Any of you with similar personalities have a similar problem? Or is it not something to be worried about, as tension can be created in many other ways?

[SomethingOrOther]

When I write longer sections of dialogue, I often start with a subtext skeleton. E.g.,

[You don't love me.]

[I'm honestly not sure why you feel that way. Sorry.]

[That's horrible. You're so callous.]

[Maybe I am. But I wish you'd be more understanding.]

[Screw this. I wish you'd leave me alone.]

I guess one of the ways it's relevant here is an argument's subtext will often be I-centered and non-argumentative, an expression of one's own insecurities and concerns and all that, and sometimes it's only when the subtext is expressed with words that the insecurities/concerns take the form of weapons directed at the other person. And when you write the subtext first, you've technically written the argument. And all you need to do, after that, is convert it into words people would actually say. It probably won't get rid of the discomfort 100%, but if it speeds up the process for you, I guess it could help.

[lorna_w]

omg, never heard of that and it's such a smart technique! totally going to use that in the future. Thanks.

btw, you never seem to make progress on your "geriatric" novel.

[Aerial]

I'm like you. I hate arguing IRL and find it difficult to write. I've found that television shows provide a useful insight for me into how to write those kinds of scenes.

I won't watch shows on television if they're going to involve lots of sniping and personal drama (like reality tv). Good drama is different, however, and I find I'm much more willing to watch people argue on shows like "The Killing" or "Blue Bloods". The reason, I believe, is because in those good dramas, the argument always has a purpose that drives the story forward, whereas in the junky reality tv shows it's just there for *drama*.

So when I write, I try to decide if an argument/conflict is necessary to drive the story forward and if so, I can turn off most of my bells and whistles about the arguing. It's still not pleasant, of course :-) But it helps me weed out the arguments that can and should come out as those elephant-in-the-room conversations or talking at cross-purposes, etc, and lets me save up my gumption to tackle the really bad, really necessary blow ups.

Aerial

[dawinsor]

When I write argument scenes, I do it at least twice, putting myself on the opposite side each time. I try to make both people look plausible.

[Susan Littlefield]

Lorna,

I think arguments/tension scenes are portrayed through action as well as dialogue. The thing is, tension often involves what is not being said rather than what is being said.

I don't have any techniques, but advise you just sit down and write. Thinking about it too much (your dislike of arguments) might be what is holding you back. You are writing about character, not real people or even real arguments.

Good luck.

[DidiBlue]

I wish I could remember where I read this piece of advice, it was on a blog somewhere, but I can't find it now. Anyway, the author explained that a good fictional argument is like firing off all of those shots you didn't think of in the heat of the moment. You know how in real life when you're arguing with someone, you usually think of the perfect comeback long AFTER the argument? That's the kind of stuff your characters should be spitting out in the thick of the argument.

Also, have them argue unfairly. In real life, arguments go all over the place. We insult each other, hit below the belt, bring up things that happened years ago. We avoid direct questions, push hot buttons, project the blame on someone else. How your particular characters argue is going to be dependent on a lot of things, not just the issue at hand. You also need to take into account their personalities, flaws, goals and fears. Know your characters inside and out, then write that epic blow-up. Good luck!

[flapperphilosopher]

I hate arguing in real life and will do almost anything to avoid it, but I actually love writing arguments. I don't know why. Maybe because I never argue in real life, hehe. My characters are nice people but they can be jerks to each other when they're mad, and it kind of amuses me.

I agree with all this:

Originally Posted by DidiBlue

Also, have them argue unfairly. In real life, arguments go all over the place. We insult each other, hit below the belt, bring up things that happened years ago. We avoid direct questions, push hot buttons, project the blame on someone else. How your particular characters argue is going to be dependent on a lot of things, not just the issue at hand. You also need to take into account their personalities, flaws, goals and fears. Know your characters inside and out, then write that epic blow-up. Good luck!

Things can escalate really quickly and stupidly in the heat of the moment, especially when there's something deeper going on. Person A brings up something they're annoyed about; person B gets defensive; person A feels bad but angry that the other person is making them feel bad when THEY started it by their stupid action, so they get back at them; person B is offended and throws something mean back. This especially happens when people are under lots of other pressure, as most characters should be.

[dangerousbill]

Originally Posted by lorna_w

Some of the arguing I can make subtle: people not talking about the elephant in the room, having the internal argument (what POV would say, if only s/he had the guts) be strong while the outer one is more subdued, People can talk at cross-purposes rather than argue.

The main reason I don't like outright arguments in literature: they're fundamentally boring to a third party (like a reader). That may be why you find them difficult to write.

Much better are the body-language and subtle arguments, as you suggest. They challenge me as a writer, but not as much as making a violent argument non-repetitive and non-boring.

[lorna_w]

For sure, bill, they do have to change, or you end up with one of those little-kids-in-the-back-seat effects: "Did not!" "Did too!", repeat until reader tosses book aside (or parent slams on brakes).

Thanks, all. Some excellent advice, which I'll come back to in next novel's disagreement scene(s), I imagine.

[Mr Flibble]

I dunow - depends on the argument, and what they are arguing about...and how they are arguing about it...

Do you consider the diff between two people who have opposing views but discuss them civilly or to people wanting to wind each other up, or one person having an argument when the other doesn't want one, or or or...


There are so many ways to play it. What do your characters want? Do they embrace the argument? Avoid it? Get sarcastic? Have a small shit fit? What?

[DidiBlue]

Originally Posted by lorna_w

For sure, bill, they do have to change, or you end up with one of those little-kids-in-the-back-seat effects: "Did not!" "Did too!", repeat until reader tosses book aside (or parent slams on brakes).

Yep, this is the kind of argument you want to avoid. The most memorable example of this for me was the movie 'The Break Up'. Good lord, I just wanted to reach through the screen and smack both of the main characters. It wouldn't have been so bad if the arguments had actually resulted in some change, but the whole thing was just two overgrown children wailing on each other. If you want an example of how NOT to write an argument, watch that film.

[L.C. Blackwell]

I can't think of too many cases where I've needed to have my characters argue--there's usually plenty of tension going on without it. Comic bickering is something else; they do that all the time.

The thing for me--if you want me to like your character, don't make him (or her) look like a jerk. Misunderstandings are one thing, as long as they're not stupid ones, but I've stopped reading more than one book because the characters didn't know how to act like grownups--and did push each other's buttons, and said hateful things, and made me want to slap them both. Patience for that kind of drama, I don't have. *she snarls*

[jjdebenedictis]

I think you could get a lot of mileage out of having characters trying not to fight, i.e. engaging in those conversations that trip all over the minefield of things not said.

A: "You're mad at me."
B: "I'm fine."
A: "Maybe you could take a walk?"
B: "I said I'm fine. You always do this; I don't appreciate it."
A: "Tell me what you imagine I'm doing. I'm trying to help."
B: "This is passive-aggressive, you know."
A: "Oh, I agree. It is."
B: "You're not being fair to me."
A: "Is it fair to not tell me what's wrong?"
B: "I said I'm fine. You could respect that."

Et cetera. The subtext can be a snit-fueled grump-war while the spoken dialogue is all misguided civility.

[Erin Kassikay]

The problem I've always encountered when writing arguments is making sure I don't make them violent. I've grown up in violence so I've seen when arguments turn deadly or sexual. That's my biggest problem.

An idea though: people watch. go to places and watch people argue. google couple's fights and problems. ask your friends.