Now what's wrong with 3rd Omniscient

scarletpeaches · Mar 18, 2007

I'd say it's third person head jumping. We're describing Jessica alone, so no one else can know what she's doing, so we must be in her head. Then the airlock opens, there's Paul and we read, 'he saw'.

How can we know what he saw unless we're in his head? Jessica can guess, but it's just that - a guess. We're not told, 'she guessed he saw'...we're told he did see, and only Paul could know that.

maestrowork · Mar 18, 2007

jules said:
I've read at least one argument that it isn't: it's a book in 3rd limited in which some of the characters themselves have talents that allow them to deduce what other people are thinking.

Deduction and inference are valid in POV, but they have to be clear. In your example, it was not clear how she knew what he saw, so it still feels like a head hop to me. When you use "he saw/heard/smelled/felt/etc." you are filtering through that character.

Obviously, if the person is psychic, then you're leaving room for interpretation -- did SHE see what he saw? Again, it depends on clarity. Do we know that she was having a vision of what he saw?

Instead if you simply describe what he saw and make it clear that she saw it too, then it would still be in 3rd limited:

"Jessica thrust the leaf aside, whirled to dash back to Paul. In that instant the airlock door slammed open. Paul jumped through it, holding something in his right hand, slammed the door behind him. He looked up and frowned. He must have seen his mother/Jessica saw his mother, too. He pushed through the leaves to her, glanced at the fountain, thrust his hand and the thing it clutched under the falling water."

scarletpeaches · Mar 18, 2007

Not for the first time, I say: Ray agrees with me; therefore he is correct.

Atlantis · Mar 19, 2007

I hate people who try to dictate what style a book should be written in. Who the hell cares? As long as the book is entertaining, no one will care. Just because there alot of "rules" in writing and publishing, doesn't mean they should all be followed. For example, switching point of view in a book. I'm reading a book at the moment that in some scens is written in first person and in other scenes jumps to third person. It reads fine.

dpaterso · Mar 19, 2007

Atlantis said:
I hate people who try to dictate what style a book should be written in.

On occasion I've suggested using third person limited when I thought it would improve the writer's material, but I can't recall ever dictating someone should do as I say. (Don't hate me for that, please. I meant well, really I did.)

-Derek

Raphee · Mar 19, 2007

Is there a good example of a novel with 3rd limited and omniscient.
IMO the two at times feel so similar, that it may lend to better story telling.
Of course it would need to be done carefully. Just thinking.

scarletpeaches · Mar 19, 2007

Atlantis said:
I hate people who try to dictate what style a book should be written in. Who the hell cares? As long as the book is entertaining, no one will care.

Anyone who cares about use of language will care.

Atlantis said:
Just because there alot of "rules" in writing and publishing, doesn't mean they should all be followed.

A popular excuse among those who don't know what the rules are, or just plain old don't like having someone else 'tell them what to do'. Rules are there for a reason. You have to know what they are, and master them, before you can break them in such a way that doesn't detract from the story.

Atlantis said:
For example, switching point of view in a book. I'm reading a book at the moment that in some scens is written in first person and in other scenes jumps to third person. It reads fine.

Switching POV is fine - AS LONG AS IT'S DONE WELL. It's head-jumping that bothers most people, switching POV character mid-scene. Head-jumping is messy and sloppy and never done well.

maestrowork · Mar 19, 2007

Atlantis said:
I hate people who try to dictate what style a book should be written in. Who the hell cares? As long as the book is entertaining, no one will care. Just because there alot of "rules" in writing and publishing, doesn't mean they should all be followed. For example, switching point of view in a book. I'm reading a book at the moment that in some scens is written in first person and in other scenes jumps to third person. It reads fine.

You have to know the rules before you can break them.

We are not trying to tell people how they SHOULD write. You can write your book in one long sentence if you want, as long as it's done well.

However, some people here don't know all the rules yet, and we're here to tell them what those are. Once they learn and master these rules, they are free to break them.

maestrowork · Mar 19, 2007

Once again Scarlet and I agree.

The world must be ending. Repent!

maestrowork · Mar 19, 2007

Raphee said:
Is there a good example of a novel with 3rd limited and omniscient.
IMO the two at times feel so similar, that it may lend to better story telling.
Of course it would need to be done carefully. Just thinking.

Of the top of my head I can't think of a good omniscient. There are plenty of good 3rd limited books out there -- in fact, a large portion of fiction these days are written in 3rd limited and 1st.

Can anyone suggest an omniscient?

JanDarby · Mar 19, 2007

Omniscient: Terry Pratchett

ETA: Also omniscient: Bob Mayer a/k/a Robert Doherty (and some other pen names, I believe; check out his backlist at bobmayer.org)

JD

scarletpeaches · Mar 19, 2007

Do you mean Terry Pratchett is omniscient or his books are?

maestrowork · Mar 19, 2007

I believe Lord of the Flies is also in omniscient, but it's been a while since I read it.

CheshireCat · Mar 19, 2007

ORION said:
Me thinks you must stop listening to "other people."
The story dictates the POV.
The author's intentions dictate POV.
Critics do not buy books.
Readers do.
A great story well written is the thing.
JMHO

This. Is. Truth.

Why, oh why do most aspiring writers sift through dozens of opinions on the "right" and "wrong" way to do things when the very fact that there are so many opinions OUT there should nicely illustrate the single truth that there IS no right or wrong -- there is individual choice.

Make yours, based on what your work needs.

And that's all.

Username · Mar 19, 2007

Okay, try first in Third person omniscient, then try third person limited, then try first person, Heck, try second person if ya like. Whichever one works best for you is the right one.

Anthony Ravenscroft · Mar 19, 2007

Rules? Nah; go ahead, do whatever you want. It's Aht, dahling!! Express yourself! Write it in second-limited future! Do it in iambic hexameter! Let your parrot help with the typing!!

Oh, you want to get published...?

PeeDee · Mar 19, 2007

There are still publishers that believe in your Aaahhht. They want your fiction novel to be published and your dreams come true!

And they will sell you a bridge in Brooklyn for cheap!

weatherfield · Mar 20, 2007

Raphee said:
Is there a good example of a novel with 3rd limited and omniscient.
IMO the two at times feel so similar, that it may lend to better story telling.
Of course it would need to be done carefully. Just thinking.

I mentioned a book earlier in the thread (The Little Friend) and I think it qualifies as switching between omniscient and third limited. There are a number of POV characters, and occasionally the narrative will incorporate multiple points of view within one scene, or diverge into little history lessons, but mostly, the POV stays with one character at a time and is in keeping with the voice of that particular character. I think it's a good example of an author using a kind of panoramic view while being able to build intimacy with the characters at the same time.

Now what's wrong with 3rd Omniscient

scarletpeaches

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