Paying for critiques, worth it?

aruna said:

But this is in every single profession. Just because there are quacks doesn't mean there are not good doctors! It's a given that the writer makes a thorough search and checks out credentials before hiring anyone. I don't think that's too difficult.

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In a perfect world, it isn't. But in reality, you've got writers falling over themselves to go with PublishAmerica, don't you? And sometimes, writers -- just like anyone else -- don't know how to research someone properly. Certainly, I didn't.

aruna said:

But I've had this conversation since the first day I arrived on AW, over and over again, and every single time the general consensus is "don't do it", and that you are somehow a superior writer because you don't want to go that route. Yet like Caroline said in my last post, there are those who know they need it; with me it was a positive hunger for professional feedback.

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But if it's professional feedback you want, why not get published in a magazine? I'm not trying to be dense here, I'm just saying. Anyway, if you want to go for it, I say go for it. As I said before, I've used professional editors in the past and paid them decently for their services, and I had a good time and I made a friend out of the deal. And I even learned something. And I probably gave the poor sod a drinking problem.

But the thing is, professional editor or not, sooner or later the writer just learns on his own how to do things. it's not that you're better because you Resisted The Evil Paying Editor, it's just that whether a professional editor is telling you what the problem is, or you have to figure it out on your own, sooner or later it's in your own brain that you have to fix things, make things work, evolve to the next level of being a writer. A professional editor can hold your hand, but he can't make you a better writer.

Anyway, like I said, go for it if you or anyone else wants to. God knows I've had this conversation enough times since I joined AW too. Next time, I'm just going to copy & paste this message into the new thread. I need to keep a document on my computer of "answers to threads," that I can just recycle.

PeeDee said:

In a perfect world, it isn't. But in reality, you've got writers falling over themselves to go with PublishAmerica, don't you? And sometimes, writers -- just like anyone else -- don't know how to research someone properly. Certainly, I didn't.

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Nobody says "don't seek to get published because there are scam publishers out there." Yet people are saying "don't get a professional critique because there are scam critiquers out there."

But if it's professional feedback you want, why not get published in a magazine?

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In my case, that's the last thing I wanted. I am really not interested in magazines or any kind of short writing. (I already was a journalist when I wrote my first novel.) I think it's the same for most aspiring novelists. These are two completely different areas. Why should such a writer be interested in magazines?

I am perhaps prejudiced, but in my case getting a pro critique was the single best thing I could ever have done at that stage in my career. Taking a writing course doesn't even come near. And that is why I will always defend those - they know who they are! - who are considering taking a similar route from the horde trying to dissuade them!

There is nothing intrinsically better by doing it yourself through trial and error. One could perhaps become a prima ballerina through trial and error as well, with perseverance and time. But most ballerinas (or all) prefer a personal trainer, or whatever you call them. Like I said earlier, this is the case in all of the other arts. I don't know why wrting should be different.

In the end you stil have to write the book yourself; that much is clear.

Joe270 said:

'A lo luv.' Sorry, I promised I'd stop. I checked out the website and understand the rules. Seems on the up and up to me. I don't wanna tick off any of the UK posters here, but I'm a little trepidatious dragging my story 'cross the pond.

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I think whether you choose a UK or US assessmet is irrelevant. The person wil know which market you are aiming for, and comment accordingly. Just pick the one you feel is best for YOU and YOUR ms

The problem with finding a reading partner for a crit is that they basically have to self-select themselves - and just as with a pro critiquer, you want someone who knows their stuff. What if Joe Blow, who loves reading and writing but really has little idea of the market and the standard required today, volunteers, and you KNOW he's not really qualified? What if he's the ONLY ONE to volunteer? You won't want to turn him away after his kind offer, but isn't it a pity to have him invest so much time and you aren't even going to take his crit seriously.

You can't very well approach a writer you really respect and say, hey, give me a free crit, will ya?

I guess it really depends on the critic and the price, and the main question, do you think it is worth it?

Joe270 said:

I'm sure this has been done before here at AW, but I can't find the threads.

I'm burned out on betas, they don't have the expertise needed to give me a line by line hit list. Hey, it's great they love everything I write and I'm the next best seller guaranteed and blah, blah, blah. That won't get the novel published. And I am now weary of real writers who start critiques with 'this isn't my cup of tea, but . . ." I need professional help at this stage. (All right, all right, stop giggling about including phsychiatric links now, people. Stop it. Stop.)

Are any of the professional reader websites worth the bucks?

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I've never paid for critiques.. so probably not the best person to give advice, buuut...watch out for websites which offer this service as opposed to 'real-life' companies... seems like more people are just out to make a buck than offer a service on the net then in the real world..maybe because of the anonymity.

Philip64 said:

For what it's worth, I actually think the moment when you most need guidance is before you start writing your book, not afterwards. If you could test out your premise, storyline, theme etc before spending years turning them into a novel, that would be useful. Sadly very few people are qualified to make that kind of assessment. However, if you can desribe your putative book to seven or eight people and only one of them says "I like it", you might want to think again... .

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This only works for people who outline first, not for writers like me, who create their story without planning it out in advance and don't even speak about it to anyone before writing. We simply plunge in and write. Talking about it, organising it etc in advance kills the story for us.

In my experience, by the time a manuscript is written, the dye is pretty much cast. It can be improved no end by good editing, re-writes etc. They are essential to producing polished work. But I've hardly ever seen a mansucript go from a round of rejections to gleeful acceptance on the back of a good edit or critique.

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(My bold)


Sometimes I get the feeling nobody ever reads my posts: A few posts up I posted a link with a ist of authors who did exactly this.

This is like saying only first drafts ever get published!

Just about every ms out there has been through a couple of drafts. Whether or not the author had outside help (beta readers, professional editors, whatever - it's all the same) in polishing is irrelevant. The point is, this is done BEFORE it is sent on that first submission round, not after. You don't wait to get rejections before you have it critiqued; you do this after the second or third draft, after you've done all you can yourself, but before you submit to agents.

I think the problem is that you, JAR and a few others are looking at this from the US point of view, where good editors seem not only to be few and far between, the very idea of using one is a matter of such shame authors who have done so, or are tempted, may not even admit to it. I think you need to listen and look more at the UK experience.

People here are saying "I've never seen this or I;ve never seen that,", when in fact you just don't know how many published authors had a professional eye cast on their ms before submission - whether with or without pay. I personally have not seen any survey; have you?

I'm with you, Aruna.

(Hello everyone, by the way!)

I've noticed a big stigma around paid editorial services, and with all of the scammers and even wanna-be-helpfuls, that's understandable. But if you find the right person it's invaluable. I had a manuscript that I'd given out to beta readers and ran through crit groups...I got a lot of help from them, but in the end, I wasn't getting the results that I wanted.

A paid editor was the right choice for me at that stage. I figure it probably saved me three years of trying to figure things out myself. To me, that's worth it. The hands-on lessons were easier for me to process with an actual body of work in front of me.

I'd suggest if you're going this route, try to find someone local (like city local...not country ), and maybe start out on a trial basis with a couple chapters before you get in too deep. This way you can get some face to face time, and get a feel for what the editor has to offer. Even if they are experienced, they might not necessarily be a good match for your MS.

Anyway, just some thoughts. To each his own, and good luck!

Nicole

NicoleMD said:

I'd suggest if you're going this route, try to find someone local (like city local...not country ), and maybe start out on a trial basis with a couple chapters before you get in too deep. This way you can get some face to face time, and get a feel for what the editor has to offer. Even if they are experienced, they might not necessarily be a good match for your MS.

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Welcome, Nicole, and what a brave person you are to jump into such a controversial thread!
That's exactly what I did. I first sent in 100 pages for a small sum of money, and I was so delighted by the suggestions she made there that I sent the full.

One has to be aware, though, that using this kind of service is not a guarantee that you'll get published (I sometimes get carried away by my own example, in which the service actually forwarded the ms to a major agent, from which several deals followed!)
But if you are seriously intersted in getting your writing into top form, a really good editor to work with can be an enormous help. But we all go different ways; for others, a writing partner might indeed be the better way. As you said, to each his own!

I reckon it's another...

American v. Commonwealth difference, Aruna.

Our publishers, published writers and writing tutors advise using a good editorial service before submitting to a publisher or agent. We have lots of editorial services run by ex-publishing people (usually editors) who are linked to agents and publishers

In America publishers don't recommend editorial services and there are a large number of scammers pretending to be editors.

pdr said:

American v. Commonwealth difference, Aruna.

Our publishers, published writers and writing tutors advise using a good editorial service before submitting to a publisher or agent. We have lots of editorial services run by ex-publishing people (usually editors) who are linked to agents and publishers

In America publishers don't recommend editorial services and there are a large number of scammers pretending to be editors.

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I know. but somehow the attitude comes across that there is something wrong in principle with using such a service; that you are somehow cheating, or less worthy as an author, or that if you did somehow make it that way you didn't need it anyway and you wasted your money. Read again, for instance, JAR's rather disdainful post.

For me it was just one way, and the best,. of many that I might have taken to learn the skills of novel-writing. No less and no more. And I only did it once.

Aruna,
You had the perfect experience and I can understand your point.
It is also easy to understand the opposite camp.

Should there be an "Editors Beware" thread on AW for all the scamming agencies out to grab our hard earned money instead of helping people like me and Joe.

Hi Aruna again,

Can editors be used from another country. Your experience shows that you had teh opportunity to talk and meet your editor freely.

I've enjoyed reading all the different input in this thread. It's been very enlightening and interesting - so thank you all for that.

It seems to come down, as all things generally do, to a matter of taste. I think societal bias may play into it as well, aruna, as you mentioned. Some people really want to figure things out for themselves - I can understand that. Some people learn better from an experienced, knowledgeable mentor. It's just a personal thing.

As with all things, of course, there are good and bad editorial services. That's another reason I love these forums - there are so many writers sharing their experiences, offering advice, helping each other. It's very comforting. Threads like this make me glad I found this place.

That's all. Just wanted to thank you all and remind everyone that none of you are wrong. All angles are worth considering.