Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

wurdwise · Apr 22, 2005

Many mags post excerpts from novels. I'm not sure if that's what Uncle Jim had in mind, but it's a viable option, IMO.

E.G. Gammon · Apr 22, 2005

Ok, I'm throwing this idea out there for input.

My novel series has a battle between good and evil, with a character finding out at the beginning of Book One that he/she's interest in magic may not have been accidental. Something happened "a year ago" that introduced magic to this character. What if I write a stand-alone, prequel novel, following this character's arrival into the town my novel series takes place in, the incident that introduced magic to him/her, and the events that lead up to the beginning of my novel series? I could use this prequel as a sort of introduction to the many characters that are the focus of my novel series. It would be completely stand-alone and would introduce the world to some of the characters.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 22, 2005

EGGammon said:
Do you mean just a couple short stories, trying to get them published in anthologies or magazines or do you mean a short story collection, trying to get it published as a novel?

I mean single, stand-alone short stories, a couple of characters each. Beginnings, middles, ends. Try the magazines and any appropriate magazines.

Collections are kinda a tough market.

----------------

The prequel novel -- only if it's truly stand-alone. A satisfying climax with the loose ends tied in a pretty bow.

Mr Underhill · Apr 22, 2005

Kate Nepveu said:
E.G. Gammon, George R.R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice series has a huge cast, many members of which get killed off.

I second the recommendation for Mr Martin's epic, if that is what you are looking for in a fantasy novel.

It is one of those books with, oh a good dozen pages of dramatis personae at the end instead of a glossary or appendices, with the people organized by which noble house they belong to.

Quite lengthy, with a sprawling architectonic plot. Very well written, with a convincing emulation of late renaissance dynastic politics. The only downside (for me at least) is Martin's characteristic bleak cynicism, where the good people inevitably get steamrollered by the rest of the world.

astonwest · Apr 23, 2005

Mr Underhill said:
The only downside (for me at least) is Martin's characteristic bleak cynicism, where the good people inevitably get steamrollered by the rest of the world.

Sounds like something I'd write...heh.

E.G. Gammon · Apr 23, 2005

Mr Underhill said:
It is one of those books with, oh a good dozen pages of dramatis personae at the end instead of a glossary or appendices, with the people organized by which noble house they belong to.

Now, if a publisher allowed something like that for my novel series, it would really help readers keep track of which character is which. I wonder how I would propose something like that... Would I just send it along if an agent requests the full manuscript, like it's part of the book?

E.G. Gammon · Apr 23, 2005

Mr Underhill said:
the good people inevitably get steamrollered by the rest of the world.

Over the course of my novel series, many main characters that people love ("the good people") die for a few reasons:

a) If I created a world where only the bad guys die, then readers would never fear for the good guys. The good guys have to die, too.

b) My novel series is a soap opera, yes, but it's also a UNIQUE one, in that the characters' soap opera-ish lives are wrapped around a supernatural fantasy (a genre where readers can expect a lot of death) and a serial killer mystery (an obvious genre where people have to die).

I don't kill off characters for no reason. Their deaths are just an engine starting of a car that hasn't even left the driveway yet for its long journey. The deaths (of good people or bad people) affect the characters that are left. I show the after effects and consequences for their deaths and/or murders.

Lenora Rose · Apr 23, 2005

EGGammon, I think the best advice you've been given so far is to just go and write the rest of the current book. NOW.

The Second Best advice was to read War and Peace, or any other Long and multi-character acknowledged classic. The thing with classics is, they've sruvived the test of real popularity, and they're still around when other books of their era that were as-or-more popular have gone into the great out-of-print stack in the sky. I'd be tempted to go as far as suggesting the Iliad, (because it has the greater sprawl of characters sitting in one place than the Odyssey, which gets to wander around).

The third best advice you've been given is to read George R.R. Martin to see how it can be done. My addendum to the third best advice is: Also read Guy Gavriel Kay. All his books are either thick, trilogies/duologies, or both. All feature many many characters. (With one or two the real focus.) I've never had trouble keeping track of them.

I note that *all* these books also handle something of the question of how many major good guys need to die, or should die, for the threat to be real. And how to make the death a minor thing, and how to make it a key turning point in the story.

You've been asking a lot of intelligent questions, and prep-work is good, but... when is it prep work and when is it shying away from the huge task you've set yourself.

Ah, who am I to talk? I'm *one scene* past where I was last week. And only a tiny portion of thgat is because the first scene ended up longer than I anticipated. Bad Lenora. Somebody order me to BIC again.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 23, 2005

Lenora, go BIC.

Christine N. · Apr 23, 2005

EGGammon said:
Now, if a publisher allowed something like that for my novel series, it would really help readers keep track of which character is which. I wonder how I would propose something like that... Would I just send it along if an agent requests the full manuscript, like it's part of the book?

It's not that uncommon, I don't think. I just finished Tamora Pierce's Tricksters Queen. Both books in the duo have a cast of characters section in the back. That's because there lots of characters, most of them minor, but also creatures, gods and other whatnot that a reader might like to remind themselves of. Especially with the names she uses.

Fabulous book, by the way. It's for teenagers, but a really good read.

PS. Lenora, go BIC. (I need to take my own advice!)

Sharon Mock · Apr 23, 2005

Okay, folks. I've gotten an hour of work in today. I took a break for lunch and in about three minutes I'm going back downstairs to work some more.

I'm BICing. How 'bout you?

(Deep dark confession: I count editing time as BIC time. I don't multi-task well, especially when editing requires holding large quantities of book in my head. Do as Uncle Jim says, not as I do.)

bkrrh85 · Apr 23, 2005

Okay, I'll bite. As a newbie, I tried examining a few prior posts, but I darned sure can't figure out what the BIC thing is all about.

I'm sure it will be obvious once someone directs me to the right interpretation! Anyone want the job?!

Thanks,

James D. Macdonald · Apr 23, 2005

BIC = Butt In Chair.

You don't become a writer by thinking about writing. You don't become a writer by talking about writing. You become a writer by putting your butt in your chair and writing something.

Liam Jackson · Apr 23, 2005

BIC

BIC- Butt In Chair.

Sit down and write. Every day. Like clockwork. Don't wait for that friggin' muse to strike. Don't wait for inspiration to bite you in the butt. Eliminate excuses for not writing. BIC is such a simple concept, it's often taken for granted, but it seems to work when all else fails.

Establish a goal. For many people, 10 pages (roughly 2,000 words) per day is the magic number. As Jim says, your mileage may vary.

Lisa Y · Apr 23, 2005

Hey, everyone, BIC really works!! I wrote 4 new pages today! That's huge for me. I had to get up reeeealllllly to do it, but I did it! :banana:

Sharon Mock · Apr 23, 2005

I suppose I should point out that though I'm being virtuous today, it was a bit dodgy earlier in the week, when I was juggling obligations, trip preparations, and oncoming cold. (I ended up not going on the trip because of said cold.)

But that's the beauty of BIC. When you're in the habit of working every day, it doesn't matter that much when life gets in the way. Need to take a mental health day? I know I'll be back in the chair tomorrow. No time to work this weekend? Fine, I know I'll be back in the chair on Monday. (Or, more often, I'll squeeze in some work on the weekend and be back in chair on Monday.)

The last time I wrote a novel I didn't apply proper BIC hygiene. I wrote when I felt like it, which was usually 3-4 times a week. When I started grad school, I was about two chapters away from the end.

When I dropped out of grad school a year and a half later, I was still two chapters away from the end. And though I did eventually finish the rough draft, I no longer had enough faith in the project to make the revisions necessary to turn it into a publishable work.

If I'd had the discipline necessary to finish that novel in a timely manner and make the revisions while I still had faith? It wouldn't have been good, precisely -- there are problems in that manuscript that I don't think I had the skill to fix. But it might have had enough juvenile insanity -- I mean, youthful verve to get published as a first novel.

If only I'd been smart enough to follow BIC back then, instead of being seduced by the demon of Not In The Mood...

bkrrh85 · Apr 23, 2005

Oh! You mean THAT BIC!!!

I don't wait for the muse, but sometimes it is so hard to put the BIC!

I'm working on a revision, major edit, of my second book. Does that count as BIC? I've certainly worked harder on it than I did the first draft--and I'm pulling my hair out a lot more, too!

I do spend around 3-4 hours, M-F BIC re: editing; I usually do a couple three hours a week working on a newspaper article for a column I write. I DO miss the "create from nothing" zing that writing a novel gives--articles just aren't the same.

But, I'm also working on research for my next novel, so does all this add up to BIC? I do know it adds up to a whole lot of computer time!!! I gotta admit, though, I LOVE the research aspect of writing ALMOST as much as the writing part--gives me a different zing!

And, I love organizing things, having lots of files, shuffling my papers around, buying office supplies, even doing taxes!!! Although I try to leave the organization for a couple hours a week, so I don't interfer with BIC!

Saturday mornings are usually devoted to catching up on reading: writing mags, articles I've saved from the Internet, books on craft, that sort of thing. I guess that is not really BIC, though, is it?

Anyhow, thanks for the info. BIC. Definitely like it. Now all I have to do is DO it!

wurdwise · Apr 23, 2005

Got a question. I have decided to take my WIP back in time, rewrite it in the year I was 13, 1968, to match my prose to my voice. How do I let the reader know this? Do I type above Chapter One, Summer, 1968, do I try to find a sublte way to add it into the beginning narrative? It's a middle reader, and not so much about that era as about the characters, so it's not like I have a reason to suddenly pop up and say "It's 1968."

shmegegge · Apr 23, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Read the magazine you're submitting to. Get copies of their guidelines, and follow them.

Realism: Remember that dialog in literature doesn't sound like natural speech. Dialog is a literary convention.

Sorry for the late reply. Life, surprisingly enough, is full.

So, do you mean that dialog NEVER sounds like natural speech? I mean, doesn't that seem like kind of a severe declaration to make?

Although, it occurs to me that you may have been replying to my rant about non-realistic language. It occurs to me, reading the post back, that I came off accusatorily when I really meant to defend my own writing style. If that's the case, I apologize wholeheartedly. I certainly don't have a problem with how others use language in their writing, I just wanted to explain my own position.

Also, regarding burning the first book: James Joyce originally wrote Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man as a much longer book called Stephen Hero. He failed to burn the manuscript, so you can actually buy the book, nowadays. But he never submitted it himself, feeling that it wasn't the work that he wanted to have represent him.

shmegegge · Apr 23, 2005

EGGammon said:
You may be confusing Dark Tower with The Green Mile (originally published in "volumes" each being released only a few months apart, instead of over a year apart like your average novel series). So a serial novel series would mean MORE, but SHORTER novels?

Hi there. 2 things:

1. The Gunslinger was serialized in a magazine whose name I forget before it was collected into a novel. The rest of the series was published in novel form from the get-go.

2. War and Peace, The Iliad, and Doctor Zhivago have all been suggested, and excellently so. I would add to that list Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Caveat Lector, however: It's an incredibly difficult book. I heard once that the basic idea was to represent the loss of identity in a culture of information overload. I suppose it very well could be, because the book just flat out confuses you almost to the point of no return. I couldn't finish it. Yet. A teacher recommended keeping a notebook next to the book in which you list all the characters you encounter and make notes about their plot lines to go back to whenever you're confused.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 23, 2005

wurdwise said:
Do I type above Chapter One, Summer, 1968, do I try to find a sublte way to add it into the beginning narrative?

Why not put the date above Chapter One? You can delete it later.

Let's see -- 1968. Does your protagonist go to see Night of the Living Dead in the movie theatres? Or want to and be forbidden because of the article in Reader's Digest that her granny read? What's on TV? News about Vietnam? Is the TV black and white? How are people dressed? How do they talk?

If the exact date isn't important to the story, you can just not mention. But you, the author, should know exactly when it is. Follow it out on the calendar. Note what was happening. Be consistent. Your sureness will make the reader trust you.

Now on to realism in dialog. Really -- take a tape recorder and record some natural dialog. Transcribe it.

Then compare your transcription to literary dialog. You see?

Specifically -- you don't need to have your villains say "Gosh wow!" to avoid having them use really foul language. You can leave out the really foul language, and no one will notice.

shmegegge · Apr 23, 2005

Ooh! And I just thought of a great one!

Bradbury's Martian Chronicles! Not too long, but a ton of different characters, all given their time in the sun, and it brings up a concept that I hope you've considered:

Even though their stories are all intertwined in your serial killer and afterlife plot, a story with that many characters is often best served as if it were a long series of shorter stories. It keeps the focus on the human elements, rather than the supernatural ones.

Good luck.

shmegegge · Apr 23, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Now on to realism in dialog. Really -- take a tape recorder and record some natural dialog. Transcribe it.

Then compare your transcription ot literary dialog. You see?

Specifically -- you don't need to have your villains say "Gosh wow!" to avoid having them use really foul language. You can leave yout the really foul language, and no one will notice.

Word. Point taken.

wurdwise · Apr 23, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Why not put the date above Chapter One? You can delete it later.

Let's see -- 1968. Does your protagonist go to see Night of the Living Dead in the movie theatres? Or want to and be forbidden because of the article in Reader's Digest that her granny read? What's on TV? News about Vietnam? Is the TV black and white? How are people dressed? How do they talk?

If the exact date isn't important to the story, you can just not mention. But you, the author, should know exactly when it is. Follow it out on the calendar. Note what was happening. Be consistent. Your sureness will make the reader trust you.

Thanks, James. I've got lots of research to do, and lots of the old gray matter to sift through so I can trust myself to get it right first. This is going to be a blast!

astonwest · Apr 24, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Specifically -- you don't need to have your villains say "Gosh wow!" to avoid having them use really foul language. You can leave out the really foul language, and no one will notice.

Sometimes, I'll use something like "so-and-so cursed under his breath."

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

wurdwise

E.G. Gammon

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Mr Underhill

Writer,Burglar,Adventurer

astonwest

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment

E.G. Gammon

E.G. Gammon

Lenora Rose

Renaissance Vixen

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

Sharon Mock

Wing nut

bkrrh85

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Liam Jackson

Heathen Horde Elder

Lisa Y

Picked last in gym

Sharon Mock

Wing nut

bkrrh85

wurdwise

shmegegge

shmegegge

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

shmegegge

shmegegge

wurdwise

astonwest

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment