Privileged language, Register, and Humor (split from "A Little Support" in TIO)

ColoradoGuy · Nov 3, 2007

KTC said:
Physical pain is not the same as emotional pain. It never will be.

Although the notion of functional pain is less prominent than it once was, there are many for whom this is not true. For them physical and emotional pain overlap considerably.

KTC · Nov 3, 2007

For some, it may indeed overlap. Doesn't make it a fact though. If I bash someone in the head with a bat they're gonna be in serious trouble...or dead. If I berate them and tear a strip off of them, they will be hurt...but they won't require an ambulance.

ColoradoGuy · Nov 3, 2007

KTC said:
For some, it may indeed overlap. Doesn't make it a fact though. If I bash someone in the head with a bat they're gonna be in serious trouble...or dead. If I berate them and tear a strip off of them, they will be hurt...but they won't require an ambulance.

It is a fact that emotional distress can cause physical symptoms. It's quite common, actually.

Shweta · Nov 3, 2007

I'm just talking about the sensation of pain, KTC. Saying nasty things to someone can actually cause the sensation of pain -- it's apparently very similar to that of physical pain.

It's clearly not the same thing as injury, at least directly.

But it's useful not to conflate pain and injury.

ETA: I can look up the studies, if you like. I only know they exist because of a meta-analysis I read. But now I'm thinking "How do you get human subjects approval to get neuroimaging responses to pain?"

ColoradoGuy · Nov 3, 2007

Ask me about the old rat tail-twitch bioassay sometime.

Jean Marie · Nov 3, 2007

ColoradoGuy said:
It is a fact that emotional distress can cause physical symptoms. It's quite common, actually.

We've hauled off a few, in an ambulance, that were in physical pain. Actually, they thought they were, but they were in emotional distress and there was not one thing wrong w/ them, physically.

William Haskins · Nov 3, 2007

these situations hardly require "loaded" language, however.

depending on the psychological fragility of the person, the mildest criticism can wound them as deeply as the most overt slur can someone else.

Shweta · Nov 3, 2007

How 'bout now? Now's a time.

About the old rat tail-twitch bioassay, CG? :tongue

ETA: Y'all are too quick for me! I agree that this isn't necessarily about loaded language, Haskins, but it could very well be. We seem to have moved on a bit to your other topic -- namely of whether or not language use can cause pain.

ETA again: We could move back. It seems we've kind of exhausted that one... though I'm a bad bad judge of these things.

Esopha · Nov 3, 2007

Oh, shoot. I forgot to add to my last post: fighting words and insults are gauged based on what the average man would find offensive. So if you're a shrinking violet and the word 'poo' sets you off balance, you don't have a case.

ColoradoGuy · Nov 3, 2007

Jean Marie said:
We've hauled off a few, in an ambulance, that were in physical pain. Actually, they thought they were, but they were in emotional distress and there was not one thing wrong w/ them, physically.

Actually, they were in pain. Pain is a perception, a response in the brain to various possible stimulii, emotions being one of them, a whack in the head with a bat being another.

ETA: Phantom limb pain is a fascinating example of how confusing the perception of pain can be.

KTC · Nov 3, 2007

oh, poo.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 3, 2007

Esopha said:
Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that "fighting words" - words that are spoken with the intent of starting a physical confrontation - are akin to striking someone. I refer you to Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire.

However, these fighting words are not offensive if they are not directly addressed to a single person, or if they are presented in such a way that a person can avoid coming in contact with the words, a la "Fuck the draft" on a jacket in the case Cohen v. California.

I post the following URL that links to an essay analyzing the concept of "offensive speech" in the context of Australian law; it's not my find, a poster sent it to me, but it's interesting.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/s...html?query=EMPIRICAL AND THEORETICAL ANALYSES

There are laws about offensive speech and/or gestures, or "hate speech" or "fighting words" in most places, though some are prescriptive laws and some, like the ones in the U.S. and Australia, try to be descriptive.

ColoradoGuy · Nov 3, 2007

[derail]The rat tail-twitch test was an accepted and venerable test for the potency of a pain-killer, usually an opiate. You gave the rat the dose of drug and then dropped him or her on a hot plate. You then timed how long it took the rat to twitch its tail (or leap straight up). The more potent the pain-killer, the longer the time to twitch/leap. Some suggested medical students would make more consistent subjects, but as far as I know this was never done.[/derail]

Perks · Nov 3, 2007

That's fucking horrible. I understand the necessity, I suppose, but good lord.

Or just tell me the hotplate wasn't up so high that when the ratses jumped, their soles didn't stick and thread like taffy.

KTC · Nov 3, 2007

I have to wonder if they ever strapped the rats to a chair and screamed obscenities at them to see how long it would take them to burst into tears.

Jean Marie · Nov 3, 2007

ColoradoGuy said:
Actually, they were in pain. Pain is a perception, a response in the brain to various possible stimulii, emotions being one of them, a whack in the head with a bat being another.

ETA: Phantom limb pain is a fascinating example of how confusing the perception of pain can be.

I stand corrected, Chris.

The proper way of phrasing it, would have been to say, that the tests performed at the hospital showed nothing organically wrong w/ them.

ColoradoGuy · Nov 3, 2007

Jean Marie said:
I stand corrected, Chris.

The proper way of phrasing it, would have been to say, that the tests performed at the hospital showed nothing organically wrong w/ them.

JM, I didn't mean to sound snippy--it's just something that's always fascinated me. I've always been looking for evidence someone can die of a broken heart, too.

Jean Marie · Nov 3, 2007

ColoradoGuy said:
JM, I didn't mean to sound snippy--it's just something that's always fascinated me. I've always been looking for evidence someone can die of a broken heart, too.

I didn't hear any snippiness, Chris. It actually fascinates me, too.

I do believe people can die from a broken heart, no question.

ColoradoGuy · Nov 3, 2007

Perks said:
That's fucking horrible. I understand the necessity, I suppose, but good lord.

Or just tell me the hotplate wasn't up so high that when the ratses jumped, their soles didn't stick and thread like taffy.

It's been illegal now for a couple of decades, for which humans and rats are both grateful.

Jean Marie · Nov 3, 2007

ColoradoGuy said:
It's been illegal now for a couple of decades, for which humans and rats are both grateful.

Oh thank God, I had this horrid visual of a rat motel. You know, like the roach motel.

I already rp'd Perks and thanked her for that one.

Perks · Nov 3, 2007

Sorry, for the derail. Don't mind me. It has always amazed me that, at some point, somebody thought that sort of thing was okay. And I'm not even an 'animal person'. I like them just fine, but mostly a good few yards from me.

Terribly interesting discussion without my digression. Sorry about that.

Jean Marie · Nov 3, 2007

It ties in, in a way. Mostly, people don't think before they speak. At least not always. We hurt each w/ our words and actions. As for words, in their printed form, once they're out there, it's impossible to take them back.

What destroys one human being may not hurt another, but how do we know which one is which when we make our delivery.

This entire conversation is making me think an awful lot about my choice. It's also making look at words in general, and the way they do evolve. And making me realize, that if I'm not sure of my choice, I can ask what's ok and what isn't, like what we're doing here. I can do it w/o hurting anyone, too.

Shweta · Nov 3, 2007

ColoradoGuy said:
[derail]The rat tail-twitch test was an accepted and venerable test for the potency of a pain-killer, usually an opiate. You gave the rat the dose of drug and then dropped him or her on a hot plate. You then timed how long it took the rat to twitch its tail (or leap straight up). The more potent the pain-killer, the longer the time to twitch/leap. Some suggested medical students would make more consistent subjects, but as far as I know this was never done.[/derail]

*goes off to scrub her brain out*

(I know, I asked, it's all my fault!)

ETA: KTC, I've got to wonder, have you never ever known a person who was perfectly sane, but could be driven to tears with words?

Perks · Nov 3, 2007

Jean Marie said:
This entire conversation is making me think an awful lot about my choice.

I've been following this conversation as well and I have to say that I've come to the exact opposite conclusion.

People will do with my words what they want. They will take me at the level of their disposition, be that to roll with it, call me on it, or over-analyze the semantics until I can be quite sure they're not so much listening to me as waiting for the oft invisible bait to fall off the trap switch.

So, my being extra careful may not be as worthy of my time as the benefit I'd receive from simply weeding out those who are too difficult to converse with.

Jean Marie · Nov 3, 2007

Perks said:
So, my being extra careful may not as worthy of my time as the benefit I'd receive from simply weeding out those who are too difficult to converse with.

There is that, too. Yes, that was sarcastic for the undecided viewing audience.

I honestly thought I had a moment, there. I still want to be more careful w/ my word choices, both here and in the spoken form. I suppose there will always be someone who will (me, being idealistic) inadvertently twist what I say to their liking, or their filter. If that's the case, there's not much I can do about it.

Privileged language, Register, and Humor (split from "A Little Support" in TIO)

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