When is Deus ex Machina OK?

angeliz2k · Nov 16, 2008

Okay, to be fair to the originial poster . . . I think the real question is where does the fallacy "deus ex machina" begin. When does having god(s) taking part in a story become a problem?

The answer is what everyone has been saying: it has to be set up properly, it can't come out of thin air. I'm inclined to think that in the orinigal poster's story, it could work if he goes over the hill and is ushing towards battle when this thunderstorm comes up (so long as it's established that there is a god and that this god has a reason to intervene then and there--in other words, even a god needs motive). It can be part of an interal dailogue or conflict of some kind instead of "Oh, looks like my enemy's dead. Ah well."

Like everything else, it has to have a LEGITIMATE POINT, which means it isn't just there to wrap up the story as quickly and easily as possible.

OremLK · Nov 16, 2008

I was using "deus ex machina" to mean left-field event that is not foreshadowed by the plot. And I maintain that it is okay and even a powerfully good idea in certain stories... and that beginning writers are probably better off assuming they shouldn't use it at all.

You especially shouldn't use it as an easy out because you can't figure out how to end the story. Its use ought to be deeply meaningful to the story in some way.

scarletpeaches · Nov 16, 2008

OremLK said:
...I maintain that it is okay and even a powerfully good idea in certain stories...

Name one story in which deus ex machina was a good idea.

OremLK · Nov 16, 2008

I already did: "Amends", in season three of Joss Whedon's Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

OremLK · Nov 16, 2008

I'll consider it and get back to you if/when I think of one. Regardless, a story is a story; there are differences between mediums, but this is not an area where they matter.

aruna · Nov 16, 2008

angeliz2k said:
The answer is what everyone has been saying: it has to be set up properly, it can't come out of thin air. I'm inclined to think that in the orinigal poster's story, it could work if he goes over the hill and is ushing towards battle when this thunderstorm comes up (so long as it's established that there is a god and that this god has a reason to intervene then and there--in other words, even a god needs motive).
.

I don't think there has to be an actual god acting to make it a DEM. It just has to be an ACT of God. A sudden non-human event no-one was expecting.

George Eliot's The Mill on the Floss has often been accused of having a DEM ending: after all the conflict (SPOILER ALERT!) a great storm and a great flood happens in the last chapter and the two main protagonists, the two carriers of the main conflict, die in it, and their bodies are found later in an embrace: conflict resolved!

Some critics say the flood was forshadowed, because all through the book there is talk about the weather and the river is part of the story and we do know that it is prone to flooding. Yet it does come as a huge surprise; you note that there are only a few pages left to read and you wonder what s going to happen to resolve the conflict and BANG: it's a flood that kills them!

It's disappointing in a way, however, she does handle it well.

OremLK · Nov 16, 2008

Isaac Espriu said:
Respectfully beg to differ.

It's because of the differences that they matter in this instance. Either one, it's hardly ever going to work, but it's far more likely to work in a one hour TV episode than in a 300 page novel, where the reader becomes immersed in the story and characterization.

I can see your point, but I'm not sure that I agree. I don't necessarily think that the spine of a novel and the spine of a 45-minute TV episode (or a 5,000 word short story, for that matter) are much different. A novel just has more sidetracks and complications and (etc, etc, etc).

aruna · Nov 16, 2008

That would be Pater ex Machina!

Chris Huff · Nov 16, 2008

scarletpeaches said:
Never. Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never.

Quote for pure, 100%, unadulterated truth.

Oh, and really, never. Never ever. Ever.

Bufty · Nov 17, 2008

I think you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

OremLK said:
I'll consider it and get back to you if/when I think of one. Regardless, a story is a story; there are differences between mediums, but this is not an area where they matter.

OremLK · Nov 17, 2008

Bufty said:
I don't think you know what you are talking about and are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

How is that type of insulting attitude a constructive contribution to this thread? I posted more detailed thoughts on page 3.

aruna · Nov 17, 2008

Isaac Espriu said:
Isn't this the 'Writing Novels' forum? Can you name one novel where deus ex machina is a good idea?

At the moment I am doing an MA course on the classics. It is really interesting to discover how many of today's ABSOLUTE no-no's were used quite frequently by classic authors. I already gave the example of Deus ex Machina in Mill on the Floss; but head-hopping, "Dear Reader" asides, and many of today's literary nono's were perfectly fine conventions at one time.
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James D. Macdonald · Nov 17, 2008

You can do a deus ex machina when:

1) You've foreshadowed it sufficiently,
2) There's so much else going on that no one cares,
3) The conventions of your genre require one,
4) It works, and
5) You've run out of things to say and can't figure out any other way to end your book.

Philky · Nov 17, 2008

aruna said:
At the moment I am doing an MA course on the classics. It is really interesting to discover how many of today's ABSOLUTE no-no's were used quite frequently by classic authors. I already gave the example of Deus ex Machina in Mill on the Floss; but head-hopping, "Dear Reader" asides, and many of today's literary nono's were perfectly fine conventions at one time.
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No kidding. For example, John Steinbeck litters his work with poor adverb use. Some of them would make you cringe (go back and read Of Mice and Men). Still, his work is excellent.

RickN · Nov 17, 2008

aruna said:
I don't think there has to be an actual god acting to make it a DEM. It just has to be an ACT of God. A sudden non-human event no-one was expecting.

I don't think it needs be a non-human event. Just an event that's not foreshadowed in the book nor due to the efforts of the characters.

Having the antaganist pointing a gun at the protaganist then suddenly drop dead from an out-of-the-blue heart attack. Definitely DEM, and the last book I'd ever read by that author.

Now, if the author had previously mentioned the antaganist's weak heart, then the protag. leads him on a strenuous chase which causes his heart to fail -- I can buy that. Not the greatest ending, but not DEM since that possibility was set up by the author.

aruna · Nov 17, 2008

RickN said:
I don't think it needs be a non-human event. Just an event that's not foreshadowed in the book nor due to the efforts of the characters.

You're right; I actually meant to add something to that effect and forgot.
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When is Deus ex Machina OK?

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

OremLK

scarletpeaches

OremLK

OremLK

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

OremLK

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Chris Huff

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

OremLK

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Philky

Redneck Jedi

RickN

aruna

On a wing and a prayer