Showing and Telling and Flashbacks, Oh My!

dclary · Dec 3, 2008

Ok, so here's the deal.

My secondary MC's primary goal is to find out what the hell's wrong with the MC, and why he hates the king of the land (who happens to be the secondary MC's father).

The events in question are about 15 years old.

There's three ways I can give the reader this information.

a) Showing, through a flashback.
b) Telling, through exposition.
c) Telling, through dialogue.

Currently I'm at about an 80%/20% mix of B and C.

The secondary MC gets hints and clues from the MC and other peripheral characters, but learns the bulk of it reading the national archives, wherein all the deeds are stored. We get the gist of what he reads through expositional telling "Markus read earnestly about how, when he had been a boy, kreegan had been bit by a rabid bee." -- etc, etc.

I *could* significantly up my word count (which the book desperately needs, just to get to 80K) by converting these read passages into flashbacks.

Question 1: should I do that?
Question 2: if yes, how would you format/handle that so as to show that we're in a flashback and not "live" events?
Question 3: if no, can you think of other ways I could share this information with the reader that isn't so "telly?" -- keeping in mind that since it's a mystery to the secondary MC, I'd like it to remain a mystery to the readers so they learn the secret reveals at roughly the same time.

SPMiller · Dec 3, 2008

In one story I wrote, I used none of your solutions. Instead, I cherry-picked juicy sections out of the document in question and presented them directly to the reader.

Of course, my goal was to reveal as little as possible, only when absolutely necessary.

Dale Emery · Dec 3, 2008

dclary said:
Question 1: should I do that?

That depends: Can you use the flashbacks to accomplish something in addition to giving information about the king's past? If the flashbacks can accomplish multiple goals for you, go for it. And if the king's past makes for interesting drama all on its own, go for it. Otherwise, the flashbacks may not carry their weight.

Question 3: if no, can you think of other ways I could share this information with the reader that isn't so "telly?" -- keeping in mind that since it's a mystery to the secondary MC, I'd like it to remain a mystery to the readers so they learn the secret reveals at roughly the same time.

If you can: Deliver the revelations as an essential element of some present conflict or intrigue. Do other people know the information? Might some characters presently be hatching schemes based on or relevant to the king's past? Blackmail? Are there factions or old rivalries that are coming to a head?

Dale

Gynn · Dec 3, 2008

You could have the secondary MC read the archives, but not tell your readers what he finds out until later. Maybe have his eyes widen with surprise, or something similar.

I like SPmiller's version. As a reader, I don't want to read a block of backstory in information form. I'd rather find out more and more as the story progresses.

dclary · Dec 3, 2008

I agree, but is there some way of at least telling the reader that what they're reading is old news, in a way?

Would you format the entire thing in italics? Or what?

Dale, I agree with you too... if the flashback doesn't add anything, it's just fluff. The information itself is what's important, but so is the context. I guess it's the intricacies of disseminating that information that's bugging me.

Pthom · Dec 3, 2008

I would not format large blocks of text in italics. It's just too damn hard to read comfortably.

But I might consider a margin indent, such as this, where the block of text is set off by a blank line above and below and with extra space in the left and right margin. (Except that here, in HTML, I don't know how to indent the right-hand margin.)

You can get away with very brief flashbacks, I think, such as a character remembering an event and describing it to someone who isn't aware of that event (thus avoiding the "As You Know, Bob" syndrome). But entire scenes of flashback stuff is a big turn off.

Another device you might consider is to begin the story with the past events, such as in a prologue. Thing is, if that prologue is too long, the reader doesn't get the hook of the story itself, and may not pursue it. And, there are those (whose comments to this effect are elsewhere in this forum) who don't read prologues in the first place, merely because they are prologues.

dclary · Dec 3, 2008

Pthom said:
I would not format large blocks of text in italics. It's just too damn hard to read comfortably.

But I might consider a margin indent, such as this, where the block of text is set off by a blank line above and below and with extra space in the left and right margin. (Except that here, in HTML, I don't know how to indent the right-hand margin.)
You can get away with very brief flashbacks, I think, such as a character remembering an event and describing it to someone who isn't aware of that event (thus avoiding the "As You Know, Bob" syndrome). But entire scenes of flashback stuff is a big turn off.

Another device you might consider is to begin the story with the past events, such as in a prologue. Thing is, if that prologue is too long, the reader doesn't get the hook of the story itself, and may not pursue it. And, there are those (whose comments to this effect are elsewhere in this forum) who don't read prologues in the first place, merely because they are prologues.

Yeah, I need to avoid that only because you lose a lot of the secondary character's compulsion -- you've seen chapter one (now chapter 2, but keep reading) of my work... if we already knew why he's so recalcitrant, it loses a great deal of its mystery. I think.

I think I'll keep it as it is, unless my betas say otherwise. Hopefully it's not too large, or too egregious. It is only backstory after all. I'm just looking for ways to get to 80K

Pthom · Dec 3, 2008

Two words, Deek:

Love scene.

Three more words:

Explicit love scene.

ChaosTitan · Dec 3, 2008

Pthom said:
You can get away with very brief flashbacks, I think, such as a character remembering an event and describing it to someone who isn't aware of that event (thus avoiding the "As You Know, Bob" syndrome). But entire scenes of flashback stuff is a big turn off.

Well, crap. Because I have about fifteen manuscript pages dedicated to two detailed flashbacks.

On point, I differentiated them from the rest of the novel (which was past tense) by telling it in present tense. I don't like reading great blocks of italics, either.

SPMiller · Dec 3, 2008

Pthom said:
Two words, Deek:

Love scene.
Three more words:

Explicit love scene.

Four:

Explicit love scene, please.

AceTachyon · Dec 3, 2008

dclary said:
I agree, but is there some way of at least telling the reader that what they're reading is old news, in a way?

As he begins to read, have the secondary MC (Markus, yes?) take note of the date. Something to the effect of "Markus looked at the date. Two years before Such-and-Such Event."

And I'm with Pthom on the formatting. Some form of block quote.

AceTachyon · Dec 3, 2008

SPMiller said:
Four:

Explicit love scene, please.

Just write slash fic.

dclary · Dec 3, 2008

AceTachyon said:
As he begins to read, have the secondary MC (Markus, yes?) take note of the date. Something to the effect of "Markus looked at the date. Two years before Such-and-Such Event."

And I'm with Pthom on the formatting. Some form of block quote.

Yeah, Markus. Stupid punk ass prince. Always getting into trouble.

SPMiller · Dec 3, 2008

AceTachyon said:
Just write slash fic.

Looking for some reading material, sweetie?

dclary · Dec 3, 2008

Yo, I'm pretty sure Ace is a dude.

SPMiller · Dec 3, 2008

... And?

If I can't make totally inappropriate posts whilst drunk at midnight, when can I?

Cassiopeia · Dec 3, 2008

Ello, Deek.

Show not tell. If a flashback is brief and yet relevant I don't mind them. They can even be fun. A short prologue works for James Patterson in every single one of his books.

The operative word here being SHORT.

Pthom · Dec 3, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
Well, crap. Because I have about fifteen manuscript pages dedicated to two detailed flashbacks.

On point, I differentiated them from the rest of the novel (which was past tense) by telling it in present tense. I don't like reading great blocks of italics, either.

Um...
How does this work, exactly? The main story is told as though all events have taken place, are complete (past tense). But the flashbacks, those events which, by the definition of flashback I understand, happened even earlier, you write in (gulp) present tense, as though they are happening concurrent with the telling of the story?

Hmm... I will have to think on this some more.

I have thought some more.

I come to the conclusion that Kelly is telling us a story of time travelers. Yeah, that's it. Time travel, multipipple universalists, and all that.

:nodnod:

ChaosTitan · Dec 4, 2008

Pthom said:
Um...
How does this work, exactly? The main story is told as though all events have taken place, are complete (past tense). But the flashbacks, those events which, by the definition of flashback I understand, happened even earlier, you write in (gulp) present tense, as though they are happening concurrent with the telling of the story?

Poor Peter.

The flashbacks are played as memories. The MC is remembering bits of her past that she'd forgotten completely, because of magic. As she remembers them, she is basically reliving the experience for the reader, which is why present tense works.

Nivarion · Dec 4, 2008

dclary said:
Question 2: if yes, how would you format/handle that so as to show that we're in a flashback and not "live" events?
Question 3: if no, can you think of other ways I could share this information with the reader that isn't so "telly?" -- keeping in mind that since it's a mystery to the secondary MC, I'd like it to remain a mystery to the readers so they learn the secret reveals at roughly the same time.

depending on what happened, nightmares work wonders. i like a nightmare scene if they are good. if say, he murdered MC's mother, i like her coming back to haunt him in his dreams. he could sleep talk, and that would relate little chunks.

so, in a nut shell, what is the event your trying to relate? different events have different effects you can still see.

tehuti88 · Dec 4, 2008

All's been said and done, but I just wanted to pipe up in a tiny voice that I see nothing wrong with a combination of all three techniques. Some people learn details through being told by another person (dialogue); some learn them through finding them out themselves (exposition); and sometimes, somebody has a flashback. Why not use all three methods as they suit the story at that particular point?

--Tehuti, fence-sitter, who uses all three techniques AND italics

Dave.C.Robinson · Dec 4, 2008

I like the idea of doing a nightmare in present tense when the piece is otherwise in past tense. I think it would work very well.

mscelina · Dec 4, 2008

There'a a difference between a flashback and an info dump, I'm thinking. In the last Asphodel book, I have a hu-yuge scene that takes place two thousand years before the current action in the story. The entire series is written in first person save for that one single scene, which is third person limited POV.

Buffysquirrel · Dec 4, 2008

Exposition as dialogue is still exposition, and we hates it, precious.

Flashbacks have their place, provided they don't start one paragraph into the story, are introduced only when the reader needs to know the information they contain, and they don't violate POV. Summarising what the character reads in the archive could also work, if done well.

dclary · Dec 4, 2008

I'm going with the mystic Sonic Gold Ring - wielding Bird God.

Showing and Telling and Flashbacks, Oh My!

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