Sex In Science Fiction

[sunandshadow]

Well, I write FSF romantica and I read that genre too, so obviously I like sex in my science fiction. But then again I've seen it done really badly too, especially by some male authors who don't write female characters well. And also, I plan to market my stuff as erotica, because regular FSF publishers won't buy explicit stuff or will ask the author to tone it down.

[Birol]

Originally Posted by GabeWhite

Back to the gratuitous thing for a second... It's kind of self defeating to use the dictionary definition -- when BEING "Unnecessary or unwarranted; unjustified" is, in fact, the whole point... Sex for the sake of sex. Gore for the sake of gore.

This sounds like the plot of your novel is to be as gratuitous as possible. How many readers do you think that would appeal to? Don't you have a story to tell?

Originally Posted by GabeWhite

So. Is there really a good reason not to be gratuitous in your writing? Why not let it all hang out? I mean, if it's well written, and entertaining, and your point is still getting across... Shouldn't we put it all down and go for broke? Self-censorship, in my mind, leads to nothing but bland watered down fiction. Sexually. Politically. Socially...


-Gabe

I don't equate not being gratuitious with censorship. At some point, as a writer, you have to decide what does and does not advance the story you're telling. What doesn't advance the story, gets cut. That's not self-censorship; that's editing. Otherwise, what you have is a manuscript full of meaningless, rambling prose and who wants to read that?

[mystified]

Originally Posted by pconsidine

Sex should be treated the same regardless of genre - if it's relevant to the plot, put it in. If it's just for the hell of it, leave it out.

I agree with pconsidine. My story has none of it, but I don't feel it's relevant to the story line, nor is it needed, so I left it out. This doesn't mean there are not stories where it would add to the depth of the novel. I think it depends on the characters, the plot, and the overall story line. Sometimes it adds something...other times it does not. (Just my humble opinion)

[MadScientistMatt]

Originally Posted by GabeWhite

So. Is there really a good reason not to be gratuitous in your writing? Why not let it all hang out? I mean, if it's well written, and entertaining, and your point is still getting across... Shouldn't we put it all down and go for broke? Self-censorship, in my mind, leads to nothing but bland watered down fiction. Sexually. Politically. Socially...

-Gabe

Well, look at your arguement if it were applied to something else. Eating, for example. Suppose you have a scene where the main character is eating a steak dinner. It's not one where anything really comes of the dinner - no food poisoning, clues to a murder mystery, or anything like that.

Sure, you could describe it with, "He ordered a steak," and be done with it. But why not be gratuitious? Might as well let it all hang out. Describe every cut with the knife to get a piece of meat. Talk about the seasonings and show him swirling the bit of sirloin around in A1. Detail every bite and every bit of chewing. And let's not forget the baked potato. Hey, if you write great eating scenes, you can keep this up for pages! Make the reader salivate!

So, what's wrong with that sort of gratuitous?

Well, it probably gets in the way of the plot and dedicates time that you could spend on more relevant details. Unless you do a good job, it won't do much for story or characterization.

If your goal is primarily to write a story that entertains the reader with explicit sex scenes, you could of course sell it as erotica and have readers that are looking for that sort of thing.

On the other hand, maybe I should see if there's a market for readers who want to be entertained with food porn...

[mhughes]

Originally Posted by Jaycinth

A suggestion came from a non AW reader that "Your boooks would sell if you put a lot more sex in them."

I went to a writer's retreat this past August where the novelist Donald Harstad mentioned this. He said that someone (editor, marketing person, agent, I don't know) had said almost this exact same thing. This person recommended that Donald put the two main characters - Carl and Hester - in a closet during a stressful situation and just let nature take its course.

So Donald did. He put them in a closet while hiding from some gunmen.

Hester fell asleep.

[katdad]

Originally Posted by Jaycinth

I grew up with the tradition that sex has no place in Science Fiction writing, and it should not be in Fantasy especially "High Fantasy". I only agree with that some of the time.

What do you folks, purists and purile - ists alike think?

I don't know what 'tradition' you're talking about. If you read Robert Silverberg, Phil Dick, Phil Farmer, and even ol' Heinlien, there's plenty of sex in SF.

Not being a fantasty reader, I can't say about that. If you mean that "high" fantasy is juvenile fantasy, then soft-tone sex, sure.

Don't confuse juvenile SF/fantasy with that written for adults.

Any adult novel may or may not have violence or sex, subdued or graphic, as befits the book itself. Adding gratuitous sex or violence is tawdry, but putting some good exciting "sax or violins" in its place is fine.

One of the very finest SF novels ever written, Silverberg's "Downward to the Earth" has some exciting sex scenes, and they fit the theme.

[GabeWhite]

Sure, you could describe it with, "He ordered a steak," and be done with it. But why not be gratuitious? Might as well let it all hang out. Describe every cut with the knife to get a piece of meat. Talk about the seasonings and show him swirling the bit of sirloin around in A1. Detail every bite and every bit of chewing. And let's not forget the baked potato. Hey, if you write great eating scenes, you can keep this up for pages! Make the reader salivate!

I agree. If you want to write a GREAT eating scene, you should be gratuitous. "He ordered a steak" is not a great eating scene. It has no possibility of being great, by its nature.

And that might be fine for some stories.

But why not try for a GREAT eating scene? At least once in awhile?

I'd read it. I'd read it twice and write you a fan letter and line up for the movie on opening night. If it really is GREAT.

Better than another mild scene of slavish subservience to plot. Better than an entire book of "relevant" details.

I don't mean to be difficult. But this isn't about SEX. It's about reaching. Most writers, once they get to a certain level of craftsmanship, are very competent. They know proper grammar and spelling. They watch their adverbs. They can write a coherent plot any day of the week. Dialog is smooth, POV steady, tense unshifting.

They don't write bad scenes. They write moderately entertaining fiction.

But do we need more of that? I don't think so. We have libraries and bookstores and web sites full of it already. There's plenty of mediocre all around, all the time.

The world is full of it.

What we need is greatness. We need obsession. Raw truth. We need writers who are willing to following their madness to the end.


So please, be gratuitous -- at least sometimes. Do you love fishing? Great. Show me! Send your hard-boiled detective on a fishing trip. Make ME love fishing by the time I'm done reading your scene.

-Gabe

[ChunkyC]

Originally Posted by GabeWhite

Back to the gratuitous thing for a second... It's kind of self defeating to use the dictionary definition -- when BEING "Unnecessary or unwarranted; unjustified" is, in fact, the whole point... Sex for the sake of sex. Gore for the sake of gore.

I can't really see how using the definition of a word is self-defeating. The word means what it means. If you mean something else, you need a different word. What you say -- sex for the sake of sex -- is obviously meant to entertain those who enjoy reading that stuff, therefore it's not gratuitous. It has the purpose of entertaining a particular type of reader. I realize this may seem like splitting hairs, but I think it's important to be aware of the reasons we put something into our stories. If you can't come up with a valid reason for it to be there, then cut it.

Originally Posted by GabeWhite

Like that quote from Jackie Brown:

Sam Jackson: "You have to stop smoking so much pot. It'll kill your ambition."

Bridget Fonda: "Not if my ambition is to smoke a lot of pot."

(or something like that)

I don't think that's gratuitous at all. It shows something important about the character. It has a purpose.

Originally Posted by GabeWhite

So. Is there really a good reason not to be gratuitous in your writing? Why not let it all hang out? I mean, if it's well written, and entertaining, and your point is still getting across... Shouldn't we put it all down and go for broke? Self-censorship, in my mind, leads to nothing but bland watered down fiction. Sexually. Politically. Socially...

Again, if it's entertaining, then it's accomplishing something and is therefore not gratuitous. Perhaps a better word to illustrate what I mean is pointless. When I think of gratuitious violence or sex, that's what it means to me, something that is pointless.

I've heard the following (paraphrasing) from many veteran writers: make every word earn its place in your manuscript.