Point of View Narration

[DwayneA]

I know there are several kinds of narration, the two most common are first and third person. First person is where the narrator is a character and third person is where the narrator is an observer but not a character. I'm trying to decide which way to go for my current work.

What are the differences between the two other than point of view? For what kinds of work are the two used for?

[Matera the Mad]

Narrative mode does not equal POV -- you can take on different POV's in third. First person always limits you to one. In third, the narrator can describe events from a floating, godlike POV or get inside characters' heads just as close and limited as in first person. Or somewhere in between. Which "person" you want to use depends on how you want to tell the story, whether you want to include information that the character(s) can't know or see, how many characters you want to use the viewpoint of, and so on.

[sunandshadow]

First person is for when you want to look at the world from inside a character's mind, when you want the whole book experience to be colored by the viewpoint character's (or characters') personality. There are different flavors of third person for various purposes. You can use a style with a strong narrative voice, or an unobtrusive 'clear glass' style. You can use a close third viewpoint which looks at all characters' actions and appearances from the outside, but also has access to the thoughts and feelings of the focus character. You can use a distant third which has no access to the thoughts or emotions of any character, or an omnisient viewpoint which has access to the thoughts and emotions of each character.

So think of it like you are the director of a movie. Do you want the camera angle to be looking out one character's eyes (or multiple characters, taking turns), following one character around closely (or multiple characters, taking turns, or a more pulled-back view that looks at all characters in an equal way.

[dpaterso]

Why not try writing the same scene from 1st person and then from 3rd person? And see which you like best? You've been writing your memoir pieces in 1st person (obviously) so maybe you'll find this easier when writing fiction. Both can work well.

Originally Posted by sunandshadow

So think of it like you are the director of a movie. Do you want the camera angle to be looking out one character's eyes (or multiple characters, taking turns), following one character around closely (or multiple characters, taking turns, or a more pulled-back view that looks at all characters in an equal way.

Talking about movies and camera angles... since that's a good way to think about POV...

If you haven't already seen it, this clip from Hitchcock's Lady in the Lake (1947) (adapted from the Raymond Chandler novel) is worth watching. A movie made in 1st person POV! The lead character, private dick Phillip Marlowe, is the "camera" -- you see everything he sees and hear everything he hears, but you only see *him* when he looks in the mirror!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AKDw2hwi5I

Methinks this goes some way towards illustrating one of the differences between writing 1st person and 3rd person POV -- the 1st person character has limited knowledge and can only experience things if he's there. You can't (or shouldn't) cut to another character's POV to deliver extra info that the story needs. In the novels, 1st person POV is ideal for Marlowe's profession as private detective -- the reader only finds stuff out as Marlowe digs deeper trying to discover the truth (so curiosity is always engaged), and is treated to his wisecracking inner thoughts and verbal witticisms to keep things rolling along.

-Derek

[C.H. Valentino]

I'm gonna agree with everything dpaterso said- and thank him for the youtube link.

I'll add that if you do go with the first person narrative style, the hardest part (for me and what I see the most in editing) is the "head hop."

Ex. I walked into the room and looked at Mary. She frowned, unhappy about the outfit I'd picked up.

First person observes the extral actions of the other characters- and sometimes it seems natural to just say, "she was unhappy about my outfit" but in reality, the POV limits what you know about the other characters thoughts. So the fix is almost alls to add "seems", that if you do it too often, it hurts your narrative.

I find that in writing first person, certainly since I write first person present tense, the dialogue HAS to be spot on. It needs a certain pop so that the character build and disclose while at the same time not "talking to the reader" or "for the reader's benefit". Make sense?

Again, agreeing with dpaterso in the suggestion to write some as both and see what rings true to you and find where you feel comfortable.

Write on.

CHV

[DwayneA]

so basically, first person uses just one character's thoughts while third person can use several. That makes sense.

Just one more question. In third person, when is it appropriate to change the point of view character from one to another? Between scenes? Chapters?

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by c.h valentino

Ex. I walked into the room and looked at Mary. She frowned, unhappy about the outfit I'd picked up.

First person observes the extral actions of the other characters- and sometimes it seems natural to just say, "she was unhappy about my outfit" but in reality, the POV limits what you know about the other characters thoughts. So the fix is almost alls to add "seems", that if you do it too often, it hurts your narrative.

I would argue that you don't have to explicitly say things like "it seems" or "it looks to me," etc. because everything in first person is inference or "after the fact" especially if it's told in past tense. It's perfectly okay to say "Mary was unhappy" because a) it's either clear that the narrator is making a judgment based on what he observed, and/or b) the fact was confirmed later (it's told in past tense).

So, there is flexibility when it comes to first person, especially in past tense/retrospect. Even "she thought" would be acceptable if, within context, we understand the narrator is either making a judgment or reporting a later-confirmed fact.

What is not acceptable is things that are clearly out of the narrator's perspective and there is no indication (or context) how the narrator would know about it. An extreme example:

I met Mary for lunch today. Little did I know John was planning to kill me 3000 miles away in New York.

Without context, that's a violation of POV. But if we add the necessary context, it's still good:

I met Mary for lunch today. Little did I know John was planning to kill me 3000 miles away in New York, until Jane called and told me about the plan.

[dpaterso]

Originally Posted by DwayneA

In third person, when is it appropriate to change the point of view character from one to another? Between scenes? Chapters?

You can change POVs any time you like. But limiting yourself to one character per scene can make for stronger, more involved storytelling as the reader gets to know and connect with the POV character. You've read enough "head-hopping" and POV threads here to know this already.

Note that just because you write in 3rd person, this doesn't mean you're obliged to jump to different character POVs in each new scene or chapter. I've written entire novels in 3rd person from the single POV of the main character, without moving into anyone else's POV. I could have written them in 1st person, but I preferred 3rd limited.

-Derek

[C.H. Valentino]

Originally Posted by maestrowork

I would argue that you don't have to explicitly say things like "it seems" or "it looks to me," etc. because everything in first person is inference or "after the fact" especially if it's told in past tense. It's perfectly okay to say "Mary was unhappy" because a) it's either clear that the narrator is making a judgment based on what he observed, and/or b) the fact was confirmed later (it's told in past tense).

So, there is flexibility when it comes to first person, especially in past tense/retrospect. Even "she thought" would be acceptable if, within context, we understand the narrator is either making a judgment or reporting a later-confirmed fact.

What is not acceptable is things that are clearly out of the narrator's perspective and there is no indication (or context) how the narrator would know about it. An extreme example:

I met Mary for lunch today. Little did I know John was planning to kill me 3000 miles away in New York.

Without context, that's a violation of POV. But if we add the necessary context, it's still good:

I met Mary for lunch today. Little did I know John was planning to kill me 3000 miles away in New York, until Jane called and told me about the plan.

Yeah- okay. Ignore what I said. But research the head hop because it does happen, even in published books.

[sunandshadow]

Originally Posted by DwayneA

so basically, first person uses just one character's thoughts while third person can use several. That makes sense.

Just one more question. In third person, when is it appropriate to change the point of view character from one to another? Between scenes? Chapters?

That's a bit of an oversimplification, since many first person novels have Character A's viewpoint for chapter one, Character B's viewpoint for chapter two. Third person is too general of a category because third distant uses none, third close uses one at a time the same as first person, and only omniscient can use several at the same time.

Typically the viewpoint should not change within a scene. You can however break a scene in the middle if you want to tell the first half from one POV and the second half from another; in other words changing the POV is sufficient reason for a scene break. First person POV tends to stay the same for a chapter because the chapter heading is useful for labeling who is the narrator of a new section, and optionally also the date and location. It's quite possible to have chapters which are only one scene long, eliminating the issue.

[roseangel]

Originally Posted by DwayneA

so basically, first person uses just one character's thoughts while third person can use several. That makes sense.

It's more like where the thoughts are focused.

I walked to the store, my goodness, what a very long walk!

RoseAngel walked to the store, she found it a very long walk.

Bad examples both, but you can show only one persons thoughts in third, just as easily as several.