How much do I risk alienating female readers?

I say write the book. Then write another.

The only way to find out if something works is to do it. Write your book.

Don't worry about alienating your readers. Worry about telling your story. These issues may well have solved themselves by the time you type "The End."

Solve all your problems and write about a transexual man turned into a woman. It's the future so I'm pretty sure they have the technology locked down.

sunandshadow said:

@ Ervin - I don't personally see anything wrong with making her a lesbian designed as a male fantasy and aiming the book at males.

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Why write about lesbians if you're doing so in a way which will exclude girls who do like girls (bisexuals like myself, or lesbians) from enjoying it thoroughly though? I'd actually love to read well written girl-on-girl futuristic fantasy, I can't see any point in writing as was aptly said up-thread "boy's-own fantasy". If you're writing about lesbians, do it in an accurate manner that reads true.

Misrepresenting lesbians would be akin to someone misrepresenting any other group of people. It’s not good practice.

And yeah, girls aren’t more athletic than boys really. There are few sports where men and women compete together (like horse riding, my own sport) for good reason. In sports relying entirely on physical ability (unlike horse riding which relies on skill and how well you can train your mount rather than might of body) you’ll notice men almost always do better because they’re evolved to be more athletic. We ladies of course have things to make up for that though.

I think it's a great idea, but if you're not really comfortable writing a female character, perhaps you shouldn't. Although it wouldn't hurt you to try. It's a lot of work just to see if it works, but perhaps you should make one of the other (not main) characters a lesbian woman and see how it works for you. You never know.

Personally, I wouldn't find any of it offensive conceptually.

White-Tean said:

Why write about lesbians if you're doing so in a way which will exclude girls who do like girls (bisexuals like myself, or lesbians) from enjoying it thoroughly though? I'd actually love to read well written girl-on-girl futuristic fantasy, I can't see any point in writing as was aptly said up-thread "boy's-own fantasy". If you're writing about lesbians, do it in an accurate manner that reads true.

Misrepresenting lesbians would be akin to someone misrepresenting any other group of people. It’s not good practice.

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Writing about lesbians in a way targeted at men does not necessarily exclude actual lesbian readers, it's a different focus, but the higher the overall quality of one's characters and writing the more you will please an audience outside your main focus group.

But the motives for being a straight writer or reader interested in gay characters of the opposite gender are rather different than the motives of being a gay character or reader interested in gay characters of the same gender. Any writer is going to find it much easier to please an audience who has the same motivations the writer does because all the writer has to do is write what seems pleasing and hot to them, and that audience segment will mostly agree, sometimes even more enthusiastically so than the writer themself. Writers are supposed to write to please themselves. It is, in fact, unreasonable to expect a man to write mainly for women, or a woman to write mainly for men, (except in the rare case that the writer identifies more with the opposite gender) because the author doesn't have much in common with that audience, and has less understanding of what pleases them or motive to create it.

If the goal was to accurately portray the world, the book wouldn't be a futuristic about a female superfighter. Instead the goal is probably a combination of escapism, drama, and fanservice of both the sexual and beating-the-tar-out-of-opponents kind. This is a standard recipe for female action hero sff targeted at a male audience, and it works well for that audience.

The LGBT community are well-represented in fiction. Go for a more original take: make the character a hermaphrodite who is attracted to robots.

Kurtz said:

I don't think we're talking about average men and women here seeing as the main character appears to be a fusion of the Bride from Kill Bill and Che Guevara.

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And now everyone at work is wondering why I just choked on a mouthful of Pepsi.

sunandshadow said:

It is, in fact, unreasonable to expect a man to write mainly for women, or a woman to write mainly for men

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You're disagreeing with a point I never made. I don't see how making the effort to write lesbians who aren't men acting as women, (or how some men might think lesbians are) is something that will make a male audience any less interested. I think men can spot just as well as women cardboard cut-out characters.

I never suggested a man should write a book about a female homosexual relationship mainly for a female readership. I was just saying (and here I'll quote myself, pardon me);

Why write about lesbians if you're doing so in a way which will exclude girls who do like girls (bisexuals like myself, or lesbians) from enjoying it thoroughly though?

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I can see no reason why it would be a good idea for a writer to write cardboard cut-out characters to supposedly please one gender (as you seem to be saying) at the expense of alienating women who like women who could potentially be quite interested otherwise in the story.

It makes no sense to unnecessarily narrow the field of readers who will enjoy the work, the original poster doesn’t want to alienate women who read his work – that rather suggests to me that it is not actually his intention to make this girl-on-girl action purely for male pleasure.

I'm asking a different question here. Promise.

Ervin said:

This is important because my book will consist of a lot of running and fighting in areas with plenty of obsticales. Wether it be inside buildings, rooftops, and so on. Sort of like in Mirror's Edge.

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First of all this is called parkour (see also free running).

Ervin said:

I want to make room for some romance.

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Why?

Ervin said:

But I don't think I would be good at (or would want to) sexually describing male characters.

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So don't have a romance?

Ervin said:

So my solution is quite simply making the MC a lesbian.

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Your problem isn't just the issue of "will I piss people off if I write teh gay" IMHO.

It sounds to me like you want to force romance into a story that doesn't need one, and sexuality on a character that doesn't have one.

Which is a bigger problem of tapping a very old trope of there being some Reward after performing the Daunting Task, the Young Hunter defeats the Great Beast and is given the Chief's Daughter as his Grand Reward. And even if it's not explicitly framed that way, it lingers on in Saves The World Gets The Girl stories.

Seriously, can't we just defeat the Great Beast because the Great Beast simply needs defeating?

We need to stop ruining perfectly good stories by forcing in a love interest.

I don't think the fact that you find it easier to write about being sexually attracted to women makes you homophobic or a bad writer. I'm a straight woman and I find it much easier to write from the POV of men who are attracted to other men than men who are attracted to women. In my case it doesn't mean that I can't write about attraction to women, I just have to do a lot more ...er... research. Heck, I've even written from the POV of lesbians before which was strangely easier for me than straight males. Maybe because I'm a woman? I don't know.

Yes, there is a time to experiment and try things you know you aren't good at, but that time is not when you are writing a manuscript you hope will be published. Your manuscript will usually be better if you stick to your strengths. Unless the novel specifically calls for something different. If difficulties in writing are your only reason for making your character a lesbian and it doesn't otherwise suit her, then you might have to figure out something else.

You also have to be aware that you are going to be writing about a woman who is attracted to a woman, not about a man who is attracted to a woman. In your original post, you made it sound like it was hard for you to write a female perspective in general. Since your reasons for making your MC female seem somewhat shallow to me, I'd consider just changing your MC to male.

Another option you might consider is cutting the romance altogether.

Just because you have a romance sub plot doesn't mean you have to 'sexually' describe anyone. You don't have to have a sex scene if you don't want to ( the old 'leave it at the bedroom door')

Just describe them. Note the character's actions towards each other, and their reactions. What it is about those actions that makes them all fuzzy inside. That's it. If it's just a sub plot, do you need any more than that?

There's plenty of romance out there with emotion, description but no sexual description of the character's, no sex (*cough* see sig *cough* ETA: WTF HAPPENED TO MY SIG!!! Where's my piccy gone? EATA: aha. I see. ). Some romances don't need it, because let's face it romance is all about emotion, not getting sticky. So why does it need to be put in when it's just a sub plot?

Now if you can't write a woman feeling emotion for a man....

White-Tean said:

You're disagreeing with a point I never made. I don't see how making the effort to write lesbians who aren't men acting as women, (or how some men might think lesbians are) is something that will make a male audience any less interested. I think men can spot just as well as women cardboard cut-out characters.

I never suggested a man should write a book about a female homosexual relationship mainly for a female readership. I was just saying (and here I'll quote myself, pardon me);


I can see no reason why it would be a good idea for a writer to write cardboard cut-out characters to supposedly please one gender (as you seem to be saying) at the expense of alienating women who like women who could potentially be quite interested otherwise in the story.

It makes no sense to unnecessarily narrow the field of readers who will enjoy the work, the original poster doesn’t want to alienate women who read his work – that rather suggests to me that it is not actually his intention to make this girl-on-girl action purely for male pleasure.

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You said, "I can't see any point in writing as was aptly said up-thread "boy's-own fantasy"." I was trying to explain why a "boy's-own fantasy" about lesbians is something some people consider worth writing and reading, just as is a "fangirly romance novel" about gay men. I wasn't trying to say anyone should write cardboard characters, but you should recognize that a character who is a "man acting as a woman", developed well, might be more appealing to a male audience than a more realistic woman.

Lesbian characters, realistic or male-fantasy, are going to alienate some readers, just as every choice a writer makes is going to please some people and displease others. So it's not unnecessary alienation, the alienation is an unavoidable and unimportant side effect of necessary aesthetic choices the author must make.

I have no basis on which to speculate about the original poster's motives, but I agree it seems contradictory to want to write about a lesbian action hero and yet to want a female or half female audience. He does say that he wants to write lesbian sex scenes, wants to write action/combat, and cares that the main character look attractive. My assumption based on that is that it's going to have a mainly male audience no matter how that basic concept is developed. It's basically a yuri anime in novel form. So I advised him to focus on pleasing the audience he's going to have and not worry about pleasing the audience he may not have. Seems like a simple, logical response to me: "Write what you enjoy writing, play to your strengths, and don't get distracted by the impossible goal of trying to please everyone."

Ervin, I can't believe you have nothing to say to all these comments...

I agree with the general consensus: your motives for making your character a lesbian are kind of...odd. I think someone already said this, but is there a need for romance? If you're that squeamish, you can leave it out altogether instead of turning your character into something she's not. Of course, if her being a lesbian fits with the story, then that's cool. But if you're making her a lesbian so you don't have to describe the attractiveness of a dude, then it's going to be pretty obvious that your character wasn't meant to be the way you've written her.

And to answer your question about alienating women: I personally am not put off by reading something with a lesbian relationship. Some people will be. But it is literally not possible to write a book that every single person on the planet will like, so as other people have said, worry about writing your book, don't worry about pleasing everyone.

kaitlin008 said:

Ervin, I can't believe you have nothing to say to all these comments...

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I'd say he's made a pretty sensible response.

He canvassed for opinion, and that's what he's received. How much of the opinion he wants to take on board is his choice, but I'd say just digesting it for now is the right thing to do.

It's a far better policy than getting defensive.

kaitlin008 said:

Ervin, I can't believe you have nothing to say to all these comments...

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I don't know - considering all of the posts I've seen where the OP starts flailing their arms the minute they get tough love, then flounces off telling everyone how little they must know about writing, I'm pleased to see Ervin is simply taking in all of the advice given.

sunandshadow said:

@ Toothpaste - I think that's a little harsh. We're all artists here, with strong aesthetic preferences, and writing about something one doesn't care about is a recipe for crappy writing,. No one should force themselves to use characters or genres they dislike. If I one day get brave and create a female lust-object character it will be because I have a story idea that needs her character, not as some sort of "no pain no gain" experiment.

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I was giving my advice, yes it was direct, but I was reading between the lines, and maybe I owe the OP an apology for that.

Considering his reasons for creating his main character a woman (about her strength and agility - which is faulty - and that he just thinks it's hot), considering his logic in creating her a lesbian (logic which was dubious at best), considering his age, considering he is also male, I took his inability (and lack of desire) to describe men as a straight woman might see them as less to do with a writer having literary preferences, and more of an immature (and I mean that simply as someone who is young) fear of sexualising his own sex. A fear not necessarily stemming from any kind of homophobia, but more a societal pressure that exists for guys not to comment on the appearance of other guys (women of course don't have to worry about that problem). A fear of not being manly enough, or a fear of others thinking he's gay, or a fear of his friends teasing him . . .

You also talk about creating characters that suit the story, but he has made many of his decisions about his character because he doesn't want to describe men as sexy. That to me is not being true to the character in the story, but an author imposing his own fears on a character and thus making her something that she might not have ever been simply because he's not interested in putting in the extra effort.

However, all of the above is just conjecture. Maybe he truly has no interest in writing about men as seen by a woman, maybe he truly finds it dull or uninteresting. If that is the case, sure, don't write about that. I agree with you, no one should force anything, and I wasn't saying that.

But I don't think fear is a good enough reason to not write something, nor a good enough reason to give yourself the massive challenge of writing a character from whom he is very different (as others have pointed out, being a Lesbian doesn't suddenly make you a guy dressed in women's clothes). The leap from, "Since I don't want to describe guys in a sexual way, I'll make her a lesbian" is simply not good enough a reason for me. It lacks a real understanding of . . . well a great many things.

Lastly, I ended my post, I thought, on a very encouraging level. Okay yes, I will admit to some snark at the beginning, and I am sorry for that, genuinely. But I also feel like some authors don't give themselves enough credit, that they indulge the fear instead of facing it. I think he could do it if he tried, I think he probably is talented enough, he shouldn't doubt himself like that. I hate it when people say, "I wouldn't be very good". "I wouldn't be" suggests the future. If he already knew he sucked at it he would have said, "I'm not very good at it." He hasn't even tried yet and already he's dismissing his abilities. It makes me sad when I see that.

At any rate, I did not think his reasoning sound enough to make the decision he was making, and that's why I said what I said. If after he does some more research, learns a bit more about women (their physicality, what they can and can't do), learns a bit more about lesbianism, and STILL wished to follow the path he has chosen, then by all means, go ahead.

But he shouldn't make decisions based on fear. That's just my opinion, but a strategy that has held me, at least, in good stead.

Toothpaste said:

A fear not necessarily stemming from any kind of homophobia, but more a societal pressure that exists for guys not to comment on the appearance of other guys (women of course don't have to worry about that problem). A fear of not being manly enough, or a fear of others thinking he's gay, or a fear of his friends teasing him . . .

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*derail*

I sense a challenge here. Which writer (calling on all the straight males) can write the hottest description of another man? The ladies can vote on who has the best descriptive talent...

*end derail*

Hey Ervin,

Just my meager contribution to all this. Physically, women are developed better for efficiency at low-exertion tasks. Men are better developed for peak performance, but at the cost of pure efficiency.

Lions are a good comparison. The lionesses do the vast majority of the hunting, because they are more efficient (and cooperative). They carry less weight, they communicate better. But a lioness doesn't stand a snowflake's against a male lion in a one-on-one because the species has evolved in a certain way. Males compete for the right to mate with females, so they are built to beat the shit out of other lions almost as a priority. They can still hunt prey, they're just not as effective, partly because they are not very social, and because they're carrying lots of weight. So I might look at your protag from this perspective. Is she part of a pack, and therefore values efficiency and social ordering, or is he a lone alpha who excels at single, more ritualised combat? (Though it's also worth bearing in mind that weapons can really narrow the physical gulf.)

As for the sexuality angle, don't shoehorn romance into a story where it isn't required by plot. It's a waste of good space you can use for better things.

From my perspective, I don't give a rip about a character's sexuality. And I am not turned off by same-sex boinkin'. What I am turned off by is crappy writing and lame plots.

I am concerned that, as somebody else mentioned, it's not so much that you don't believe you'd be able to describe a man having sex, but that you'd be uncomfortable with doing so. You don't have to have sex in your book -- there are plenty of straight-up romance novels that don't have sex, let alone sci-fi novels with romance subplots. But if you do want to include sex, don't let your fears hold you back. Do one thing every day that scares you, as the adage goes. If that means you write about a guy having sex with a girl, and then have it critiqued to learn how to make it better next time, then go for it. You'll be a better writer for such an experience. Probably.

On the other hand, if your story really wants to feature a futuristic lesbian in a grungy distopia, then rock on. As a woman and a big consumer of sci-fi, I don't care about who characters sleep with.

Yep, I read about all kinds of characters, and they don't have to be the least bit like me. AAMOF, personally, I enjoy getting into the heads of people very different from me.

If you're feeling a sexy story, by all means do a sexy story, imho. If you're feeling a hot lesbian, research hot lesbians I like stories where the author felt it - the only part of what you've alluded to that would bother me is if I could tell you chose the set-up for pragmatic reasons. If you feel it, it'll be a better story.

[I'm not saying you don't feel it, btw. You don't have to debate why you see an agile female character as right, for instance... maybe that's who came to you ]

Some reality: 70% of all books are purchased by women aged between 35 and 55.

That readership propels books into the bestsellers lists, and it's not all that flexible; they prefer a sensible read to the fumbling of yet another experiment from yet another newcomer unsure of their sexuality.

In no way should that stop the eager experimentation of youth, bearing in mind that Lady Chatterley was banned a mere 50 years ago, but if you want to make money from your writing, you have to aim it at the market, self indulgence will not pay the rent.

@Toothpaste, I think you've articulated a beautiful point. I think any artist who lets their craft be steered in a direction by decisions made because of fear need to deal with their own issues so they don't get in the way of their creative output. It's like artists who feel unsure about drawing eyes so they put fringes on all their characters. I can't abide that personally because it seems such a bad way to go through life - defining your work by what you feel you can't do and therefore avoid. Being bold and making decisions that are genuine to the work is so much better.

sunandshadow said:

So it's not unnecessary alienation, the alienation is an unavoidable and unimportant side effect of necessary aesthetic choices the author must make.

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The unnecessary alienation I was speaking of was alienating girls who like girls from a story featuring girls liking girls by failing to write it in a way that is well researched and features characters who are believable and have believable motivations. I think we just fundamentally have a difference in opinion here.

I just can't see there being any reason why it's ever the best idea to do anything other than strive for the representation of characters who seem true. In my ideology, if you're managing to alienate gay readers by representing a gay relationship in an entirely unconvincing way, you're doing something wrong.

How is writing lesbians in an inaccurate way for the pleasure of men who fantasise about inaccurate 'hot lesbians' any different from writing a 'Little Black Sambo' story?

I have no problem with people writing about attractive, sexy lesbians (really, I have no problem with it, I love attractive lesbians) but writing about un-researched lesbians who are essentially men acting like women fundamentally bothers me.

To summarise my feelings:
Sexy pin-up girl characters in a lesbian relationship = totally okay with me
Un-researched characters who are effectively men in dresses masquerading as lesbian characters = :<

There's also a good episode of Writing Excuses (a podcast with male hosts) about women in chainmail bikinis, and writing women who aren't men with breasts.
Here's a transcipt, if anyone doesn't want to download the podcast.

ETA: Here's a quote from that transcript which will hopefully explain why I think this episode is fantastic (and F.Y.I., Tracy is a male):

[Tracy] Thanks. I think I might drop it. It's interesting because... very often, men when they write women tend to write those characters as though they were just men with breasts. They were just... not only that, but this is where we get chainmail bikinis from, is men writing about women. Chainmail bikinis make no sense whatsoever in any kind of martial arts sense. Nevertheless, here we have this archetype. Why? Because men are writing women the way men think women are supposed to be. And this is completely... this does no service to anybody. This perpetuates bad myths for men, for one. And it means that we have no understanding whatsoever about the female experience. And the female experience is a fantastic thing and a wonderful thing to explore in literature. But it's very difficult for men to do that. They... to be able to understand the feminine perspective, to get outside of our little male compartmentalized world and to understand how women perceive our existence is something that men have to work at.

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Toothpaste said:

Considering his reasons for creating his main character a woman (about her strength and agility - which is faulty - and that he just thinks it's hot), considering his logic in creating her a lesbian (logic which was dubious at best), considering his age, considering he is also male, I took his inability (and lack of desire) to describe men as a straight woman might see them as less to do with a writer having literary preferences, and more of an immature (and I mean that simply as someone who is young) fear of sexualising his own sex. A fear not necessarily stemming from any kind of homophobia, but more a societal pressure that exists for guys not to comment on the appearance of other guys (women of course don't have to worry about that problem). A fear of not being manly enough, or a fear of others thinking he's gay, or a fear of his friends teasing him . . .

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I'm with Toothpaste and White Tean all the way. I loved the entire post, but this paragraph seems to highlight the main issue here. The OP indicated that he was uncomfortable describing male sexuality, and I believe all of these points play at least some part in that discomfort.

To Ervin...you can feel however you want to about matters such as these, but as a fellow writer (or aspiring writer, I suppose), there is nothing wrong with describing male and/or female sexuality. It's a part of life, our most primal essence. Doing so doesn't make you gay, and if anyone ridicules you for it, they're simply too immature to understand the nature of it. Even if you were gay, what would be wrong with that? As a writer, you're going to find yourself writing about things that don't necessarily represent you--if you write a serial killer into your story, does that mean you have homocidal tendencies? And this is a good thing. Writers have the ability to create worlds from an kaleidoscope of perspectives, and we shouldn't want it any other way.

You're at the age--not that I'm much older than you are now--when you're going to begin looking at the world around you in a different light. Hopefully when you do, it's with an open mind.

BigWords said:

I sense a challenge here. Which writer (calling on all the straight males) can write the hottest description of another man? The ladies can vote on who has the best descriptive talent...

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I believe I can, if I felt like it. Unfortunately, I've been up all night nursing the gf's fever, and don't have the energy for it now...perhaps when I have time I'll write something and post it.

@ Toothpase and White-Tean

I do agree with the point that it's generally bad to avoid one's irrational fears and good to face them and figure out why you fear them; on the other hand I think the line between fear and dislike can be kind of fuzzy. For example I can't stand zombies and would never write about them, and usually prefer not to read about them. That's probably because I have a deep seated fear of death and disease. Does that mean I should think and write about death and disease to face my fear? I don't think so because I've read plenty of stories about death and disease, I just don't want to think about them because they are depressing, disgusting, and, well, scary. I don't see that I'd glean anything positive about contemplating the subject or come to fear it less.

I also agree that it's generally good to research what you're going to write about.

I'm not entirely sure what counts as a "Little Black Sambo" story; although I don't think writing which perpetuates racial hate (or homophobic hate) should be published, I do think it's perfectly valid to write interracial erotica where the black character is sexy because they're black. That's no different than a man writing a story about how a woman is sexy because she has big boobs and making her act like a sexkitten who is addicted to giving oral. It's going way too far in the direction of political correctness to say people can't fetishize a foreign race or sexuality or gender because it's disrespectful to fetishize things rather than think accurately about everything. How unpleasant it would be to have to think about everything realistically all the time! Fortunately that's what fantasizing is for, thinking about things in creative non-realistic ways. I think fetishizing various concepts (guns, drugs, violence, are some other controversial topics where it would clearly be censorship to deny people the right to fetishize them), and using genders/sexualities/races as symbols, are very important mental activities and definitely shouldn't be forbidden or have suspicion and guilt larded onto them to try to make people censor themselves.

To say it a bit more bluntly: anyone, including straight people, has a right to fetishize gays (or blacks or women or guns or drugs or whatever) and gets some kinds of benefits from doing so, just as anyone, including gay people, has a right to portray gayness realistically and gets some kinds of benefits from doing so.