How much do I risk alienating female readers?

veinglory · Jul 5, 2009

As anothe option, there doesn't have to be a romantic/sexual subplot at all. Just because you have a female hero doesn't mean she has to be in a relationship.

sunandshadow · Jul 5, 2009

I've often thought being bisexual would be a huge advantage for a graphic artist. I suppose the same would apply to being a writer, although on the other hand I find it much easier to describe a character feeling attracted to a body type I'm not personally attracted to than I would find it to draw a character of that body type.

Portia · Jul 5, 2009

Kurtz said:
whatever bro still sounds cliche as hell

OK, I may be new here, but I call foul anyway.

Have you heard the saying "there are no new stories under the sun"? It's all in the telling, bro.

Shweta · Jul 5, 2009

I think any way of being outside the norm is useful for a writer. It means you spend all day every day thinking about things in your own terms and in how the norm views things, and adjusting. You grow up figuring out how to see things from another's perspective.

It's not that other people can't do that, it's that Othered people have to to survive.

Shweta · Jul 5, 2009

Portia said:
OK, I may be new here, but I call foul anyway.

Have you heard the saying "there are no new stories under the sun"? It's all in the telling, bro.

Agreed. Almost anything sounds cliche when it's summarized in a paragraph, and it's really not the time to judge.

Having said that, I'd personally go for the no-romantic-subplot option myself, given everything the OP's said in this thread.

GD Marks · Jul 5, 2009

Shweta said:
I think any way of being outside the norm is useful for a writer. It means you spend all day every day thinking about things in your own terms and in how the norm views things, and adjusting. You grow up figuring out how to see things from another's perspective.

It's not that other people can't do that, it's that Othered people have to to survive.

I agree with this completely, but let's not get carried away. It's impossible to not be 'outside the norm' in some way.

'The norm' is a societal construct taken in by an individual, and no person embodies 'the norm'. 'Average Joe/Jane' does not exist outside of psychometric tests, and certainly nobody I know sees themselves this way. How much have you been told 'we're all unique' - cos it's true!

We are all isolated in perspective by our individual minds, as this chat over bi/het/gay chat has shown. We've had people point out that bis don't get to 'know' a straight role, hets don't 'know' a gay role, gays don't know a bi role, etc, etc. We only know our own role.

Some may relate to a 'societal norm' easier than others, but it is still just a relation.

gdm.

Shweta · Jul 5, 2009

Agreed in full. I was oversimplifying.

*smacks self on wrist*

GD Marks said:
I agree with this completely, but let's not get carried away. It's impossible to not be 'outside the norm' in some way.

'The norm' is a societal construct taken in by an individual, and no person embodies 'the norm'. 'Average Joe/Jane' does not exist outside of psychometric tests, and certainly nobody I know sees themselves this way. How much have you been told 'we're all unique' - cos it's true!

We are all isolated in perspective by our individual minds, as this chat over bi/het/gay chat has shown. We've had people point out that bis don't get to 'know' a straight role, hets don't 'know' a gay role, gays don't know a bi role, etc, etc. We only know our own role.

Some may relate to a 'societal norm' easier than others, but it is still just a relation.

gdm.

White-Tean · Jul 6, 2009

Kurtz said:
Another thing: simply being gay doesn't mean you can convincingly portray all homosexual relationships, just as being straight isn't enough to show all heterosexual relationships.

Look at the Greeks homosexuality, that was about as far divorced from modern day homosexuality as its possible to be. I mean considering the fact that this would be set in the future we have to assume culture and personal dynamics would have changed, which changes the way people act with each other.

I totally agree with your points, that's why in my comment I said;

I don't think it's as much that we've dated both genders and understand them better, so much as it is the fact that we've already rid ourselves of the societal hang-ups, (and as you say "culture applies a lot of limits not naturally there") so we're not thrown into a minor gay-panic at describing the attractive qualities of our own gender.

Some people just can't empathise and understand others and won't ever be as emotionally fluent as others. Hence my point on the advantages of being a bisexual creative focuses more on the point that we’ve already somewhat removed ourselves from some social hang-ups.

@john barnes on toast, actually, I think I can understand the life of a straight person fairly well – I lived for seventeen years thinking I was one, and most of society (even people who know me personally) still treats me as one as I don’t exactly walk around with a rainbow flag streaming behind me. There are also situations where I’ll respond one way more than another – bisexuality isn’t exactly an even divide, and I think a lot of what I can empathise about the life of a heterosexual or a homosexual person comes more from the way society responds to me in various situations (my family expecting me to settle down with a nice boy, for example) than my own attraction to both genders.

john barnes on toast · Jul 6, 2009

White-Tean said:
@john barnes on toast, actually, I think I can understand the life of a straight person fairly well

I don't doubt that.

kaitlin008 · Jul 6, 2009

I think it's dangerous to think that any aspect about yourself makes you better prepared to write about any one thing. Everyone's experiences in life are different--be it their sexuality or their high school experience, or anything else. So you don't want to just assume you know what you're talking about because you have a shared trait with the character, you want them to be unique from you! I get your point, white tean, about having removed yourself from social hangups, but I don't think that's exclusive to your sexuality. In fact, I know it isn't.

Deleted member 42 · Jul 6, 2009

Personally, I'm outraged to discover that C. J. Cherryh has written over forty books about aliens, and she's completely human.

I call foul.

Also Milton? He never even met Satan. And that rat-bastard Melville was a writer and not a whaler, and Stephen King can't start fires with his mind.

Writers. Liars every one of 'em.

Kurtz · Jul 6, 2009

Medievalist said:
Also Milton? He never even met Satan. And that rat-bastard Melville was a writer and not a whaler, and Stephen King can't start fires with his mind.

Melville served aboard the New Bedford whaler Acushnet for 18 months in the 1840's! I think Milton was a sorceror so Satan's not out of the question and Stephen King... well I have theories about him.

BigWords · Jul 6, 2009

White-Tean said:
actually, I think I can understand the life of a straight person fairly well

Sadly, straight people seem to write a helluva lot of gay characters as over-the-top queens. The overtly homosexual characters in films, on television and in novels are a minority of the wide spectrum of individuals living 'alternative' lifestyles.

I even have problems with the term 'alternative', as everyone is shaded slightly differently on the sliding scale of sexuality.

There are no absolutes, and every character should be written as an individual in their own right. We wouldn't generalize about real people, so fictional ones should be treated no differently.

GD Marks · Jul 6, 2009

BigWords said:
We wouldn't generalize about real people, so fictional ones should be treated no differently.

But isn't it pretty clear that we do generalise about real people? People generalise about real people all the time - watch the news, talk to people - so as part of an argument to not generalise in fiction it doesn't seem to work. (For me.) And people self-perform to generalisations all the time too - so generalisations aren't always from without.

Writers generalise a lot to get their point across - Animal Farm, Les Miserable, Dracula... - all utilise archetypes to represent things.

Every character produced is arguably a conglomeration of generalisations that exist in the author's head.

The problem lies in conglomerating(?) only one or two generalisations, all of which are clearly evident to the readers. Characters that 'feel real' are a combination of a much larger number of generalisations (usually with a very highly visible dominant one), so feel less general.

So don't rest a character you want to be believable on a few generalisations. Make them more complex. But if you don't care if your character is believable, go ahead and use a stock character to illustrate your point. Just don't expect your audience to believe it is little more than a fable. But that just might be exactly what you want.

gdm.

GD Marks · Jul 6, 2009

Medievalist said:
Writers. Liars every one of 'em.

Readers. Love. Liars.

Hooray!

Puck38 · Jul 6, 2009

Ervin said:
How much do I risk alienating female readers?

We have to worry about the feelings of women now? Just chug a beer and write it like the man you are and if anybody says the lesbianism is unrealistic, demean and ridicule them until they give in and accept that your way is the right way. Can I get a hell yeah? Maybe a chest bump? Anyone? Chest bump?

Anyone?

Please?

GD Marks · Jul 6, 2009

You were a brave man, Puck..

Deleted member 42 · Jul 6, 2009

Puck38 said:
We have to worry about the feelings of women now? Just chug a beer and write it like the man you are and if anybody says the lesbianism is unrealistic, demean and ridicule them until they give in and accept that your way is the right way. Can I get a hell yeah? Maybe a chest bump? Anyone? Chest bump?

Well now, that rather depends on the beer in question, doesn't it!

We talking a Peche Lambec? Imperial Stout? Fruit lager?

Puck38 · Jul 6, 2009

Medievalist said:
Well now, that rather depends on the beer in question, doesn't it!

We talking a Peche Lambec? Imperial Stout? Fruit lager?

Fruit lager?? What are you, French? No, no, I'm talking real beer: Guinness. The man's man of beer. The "I've got hair on my chest and I'm not afraid to expose it to you if you ask nicely" of beer.

Or, if I'm feeling classy and trying to make a statement with my drink, I'll go with a Miller High Life. When I go cruising through the trailer park most Friday nights, I just hold a Miller High Life out the window and it's like Power Bait to the ladies. They don't call it the champagne of beer for nothin'.

cooeedownunder · Jul 7, 2009

I find this thread a bit confusing, or the reason for it more so... Bare with me, please, while I get my head around this....If I were uncomfortable describing male charachters sexually, I can't see how making all my male charachters gay would solve that issue if I then delve into male on male relationships, which I know nothing about. Too much for me :Shrug:

That said, I would love to write from a male MC pov, and have some females kick his....

Kurtz · Jul 7, 2009

Puck38 said:
Fruit lager?? What are you, French? No, no, I'm talking real beer: Guinness. The man's man of beer. The "I've got hair on my chest and I'm not afraid to expose it to you if you ask nicely" of beer.

Or, if I'm feeling classy and trying to make a statement with my drink, I'll go with a Miller High Life. When I go cruising through the trailer park most Friday nights, I just hold a Miller High Life out the window and it's like Power Bait to the ladies. They don't call it the champagne of beer for nothin'.

I would read your book unironically lil jon owns

batgirl · Jul 7, 2009

There's an approach I've seen used by a few male authors who need to write a female character's pov as she's attracted to a male character. They imagine the male character to be (or strongly resemble) themselves, and write what they would want a woman to be thinking and feeling as she approached them.
Unleash your narcissism.
-Barbara

Euan H. · Jul 7, 2009

LuckyH said:
Some reality: 70% of all books are purchased by women aged between 35 and 55.

That readership propels books into the bestsellers lists,

Which is, of course, why Tom Clancy--that well-known sensitive soul--saw every single one of his books annex a small portion of the best-seller list on its release.

BigWords · Jul 8, 2009

I mistyped - We shouldn't generalize about people.

All of the rude things I've said about the French, used car salesmen, lawyers, estate agents, politicians, boy bands, soccer players and reality-television 'stars' notwithstanding. Obviously.

How much do I risk alienating female readers?

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