Making of a Great Villain

Jennasis · Sep 29, 2009

Villains usually more interesting (to me) than the hero. Sure, Luke Skywalker was ok to watch...albeit whiney and weak, but when Darth Vadar is on screen? Boy Howdy! Now we're having fun!

The Joker? Way more fun.

Heck even the Aliens and Predators were more interesting than the heros!

mscelina · Sep 29, 2009

I don't write villains. I writer antagonists. My main character, the protag, has a very specific set of goals. In between her and those goals is usually a single person, whose own goals are the direct opposite. Now realize, this is a personal taste of mine. I don't like heroes without flaws and villans are always much, much more delicious for me to write and read about. If I could get away with it, every book I write would have a happily never after ending.

Of course, then I wouldn't sell any. What can I say? I'm a hack.

Darzian · Sep 29, 2009

mscelina said:
If I could get away with it, every book I write would have a happily never after ending.

Of course, then I wouldn't sell any. What can I say? I'm a hack.

This is so true. I'd personally love to write endings that aren't happily ever after but from a reader's POV, I tend to hate such endings.

mscelina · Sep 29, 2009

Strangely enough, I do too. I'd love to have the cajones to write a book in first person and end it with the character's death right in the middle of a word.

*scratches head*

I already get hate mail for killing off best-beloved characters. I shudder to think what would happen if I killed off one of my heroines...well, unless I was going to bring her back in some way...

...not that I have a draft with just that around here somewhere...

mscelina · Sep 29, 2009

Jennasis said:
Villains usually more interesting (to me) than the hero. Sure, Luke Skywalker was ok to watch...albeit whiney and weak, but when Darth Vadar is on screen? Boy Howdy! Now we're having fun!

The Joker? Way more fun.

Heck even the Aliens and Predators were more interesting than the heros!

Very true. I was just thinking about this the other day, as I head back into my normal autumnal obsession with Phantom. The thing of the musical is that no matter who plays the Phantom, the audience is silently rooting for him the whole time and not the nancy-schmancy stereotypical hero type Raoul. We want Christine to go with the Phantom. He's killed people? Who cares? He took control of her mind? Bah! She wanted it. We want the Phantom to succeed because at some small, hidden level within ourselves we think he deserves it.

Now, when Gerard Butler plays the Phantom that makes it all better.

But still, the Phantom is the kind of villain I really like. He's more of an anti-hero, an antagonist in a way BUT when you get really particular about it the protagonist, Christine, would never have acheived her goals without his help. She just wasn't willing to pay the price after all was said and done.

Jennasis · Sep 29, 2009

mscelina said:
Very true. I was just thinking about this the other day, as I head back into my normal autumnal obsession with Phantom. The thing of the musical is that no matter who plays the Phantom, the audience is silently rooting for him the whole time and not the nancy-schmancy stereotypical hero type Raoul. We want Christine to go with the Phantom. He's killed people? Who cares? He took control of her mind? Bah! She wanted it. We want the Phantom to succeed because at some small, hidden level within ourselves we think he deserves it.

Now, when Gerard Butler plays the Phantom that makes it all better.

But still, the Phantom is the kind of villain I really like. He's more of an anti-hero, an antagonist in a way BUT when you get really particular about it the protagonist, Christine, would never have acheived her goals without his help. She just wasn't willing to pay the price after all was said and done.

Gerard...Butler...will play...the Phantom?

WHY WASN'T I NOTIFIED???

On a related note, I always rooted for Gargamel to actually capture and eat a Smurf. Maybe I was a twisted kid, but the man was a poor starving old soul! COuldn't the Smurfs have at least made a sacrificial offering to him once in a while? Nobody even liked Brainy...he could've gone first! Then Vanity, and then Jokey.

mscelina · Sep 29, 2009

Butler played the Phantom in the 2004 movie. There were rumors that he would reprise the role for the upcoming Love Never Dies, the Phantom sequel about to open on the West End, but apparently that rumor is false.

And yes--Butler, despite being a full octave lower in voice than Michael Crawford, totally kicks as the Phantom. I could have found a way to stay on the correct side of the room for eternity.

Wouldn't have bothered me at all. "Just keep your mask on, dear, and get over here!"

Nom.

Canotila · Sep 30, 2009

Jennasis said:
Gerard...Butler...will play...the Phantom?

WHY WASN'T I NOTIFIED???

On a related note, I always rooted for Gargamel to actually capture and eat a Smurf. Maybe I was a twisted kid, but the man was a poor starving old soul! COuldn't the Smurfs have at least made a sacrificial offering to him once in a while? Nobody even liked Brainy...he could've gone first! Then Vanity, and then Jokey.

This is random, but I always thought he wanted to catch them to turn them into gold? Maybe my frail mind couldn't comprehend Gargamel eating a smurf and switched it up on me.

What I never understood is why, if he wanted them for some purpose, didn't he just make his own? He made Smurfette after all. Maybe that's what he was secretly going for. Create a female to add to the entirely male population.

T.T. Lyre · Oct 1, 2009

Republicans think democrats are villains. Democrats think republicans are villains. I like to think that evil has a lot to do with where you stand. When I create a villain I think of what my antagonist wants and try to think of someone just as dedicated who wants something at cross purposes. Or I start with a conflict and try to imagine what type of normal person would fall on both sides. Whomever is more interesting to me is my antagonist, the other is my villain.

My favorite villains are sympathetic characters, like the terrifying Annie from Septhen Kings Misery.

I also enjoy sociopathic villains, especially the slightly comical ones. Does anyone remember Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandemar from Neverwhere? "Mammals removed and tutelary dentistry"

CynV · Nov 6, 2009

mscelina said:
Strangely enough, I do too. I'd love to have the cajones to write a book in first person and end it with the character's death right in the middle of a word.

See now that would be unique! Hell of an idea.

I suppose bottom line is to just make ALL the characters have as much depth to them as you can so that they leap from the page and straight into the reader's imagination.

BTW Gothic, what's with the "forceful throw across the room" comment...chill out man, its just an opinion!

Hagen · Nov 7, 2009

T.T. Lyre said:
Republicans think democrats are villains. Democrats think republicans are villains. I like to think that evil has a lot to do with where you stand. When I create a villain I think of what my antagonist wants and try to think of someone just as dedicated who wants something at cross purposes. Or I start with a conflict and try to imagine what type of normal person would fall on both sides. Whomever is more interesting to me is my antagonist, the other is my villain.

My favorite villains are sympathetic characters, like the terrifying Annie from Septhen Kings Misery.

I think this is why Magneto from the X-Men comic books/movies was always one of my favorite villains. He commits monstrous acts in the name of his cause, but seeing how the mutants in the story are treated by normal humans, you can sympathize with his feelings, if not his actions. If not for Professor Xavier offering a more civil approach to dealing with humans (peaceful co-existence), you might even come to think that Magneto was justified in some of the things he does.

MGraybosch · Nov 7, 2009

Hagen said:
If not for Professor Xavier offering a more civil approach to dealing with humans (peaceful co-existence), you might even come to think that Magneto was justified in some of the things he does.

Actually, despite Xavier's efforts, I do think that Magneto is justified. There are humans who richly deserve everything Magneto can dish out. The problem with revenge is that eventually you end up hurting people who never did anything to piss you off.

Hagen · Nov 7, 2009

MGraybosch said:
Actually, despite Xavier's efforts, I do think that Magneto is justified. There are humans who richly deserve everything Magneto can dish out. The problem with revenge is that eventually you end up hurting people who never did anything to piss you off.

Yeah, I think that's what truly makes him a villain though (although he's oscilated back between villain and hero over the years). His line of thinking goes from "there are certain humans out there who want to harm us, and we should use whatever means necessary to defend ourselves from them", to "humans and mutants are incapable of peacefully co-existing, and since mutants are clearly superior, we should rule/destroy the humans". Which is also ironic since as a child he was a victim of Nazi persecution, and then goes on to adopt very Nazi-like philosophies of oppressing those he deems inferior.

DrZoidberg · Nov 9, 2009

I think a good villain is cynical and honest to himself. A good villain always gets one hook into the reader making them for an instant sympathise or even agree, while other hooks must fail to take hold (or they're heroes.)

I also think that a good villain isn't afraid of what other people will think of him. He's his own judge and holds himself to his own standard. They must also be someone who can be admired some way. Good villains are also masters at rationalising any action no matter how offensive it might be, and they have to be good at convincing others that they're right.

I think Hitler is the perfect villain to compare against. If your villain isn't as good as Hitler you need to try harder.

Miyaka · Nov 9, 2009

I think that in order to make vilians real , belivable, there should be some human trait that your average person can identify with.

Hanibal and Clarise had a weird sort of mind love affair going on,perhaps it was one sided on his side ,but she was drawn to him I think because of his intelligence and perhaps if he had not been a serial killer there could have been a chance.

Of course if a person is writing a character that is a demon or just not human then I say go for it and be evil all the way but it can get tricky I think . As someone else mentioned, you run the chance of having someone coming off as to cartoony ,cardboard or maybe even boring.

I have had to think about this one myself since I have 2 baddies in my story , two different motives one male one female so I can only hope I didnt botch it myself.

Khimera9 · Nov 9, 2009

I think the best villains are the ones that have a cause that a person can find believable, like for the security of his home country or to move to a higher state of power. I also think that the best villains are people who are witty characters with good personalities and can actually talk eye to eye with the protagonist.

The greatest opponent is a worthy opponent.

Rhys Cordelle · Nov 9, 2009

With respect to things like demons as your antagonists, if they have a measure of intelligence then they should, imo, still not be portrayed as one dimensional villains. They can still have justification and motivation for their actions.

MGraybosch · Nov 9, 2009

Rhys Cordelle said:
With respect to things like demons as your antagonists, if they have a measure of intelligence then they should, imo, still not be portrayed as one dimensional villains. They can still have justification and motivation for their actions.

Damned right. And the more powerful and intelligent the demon, the more complex the demon's motivations and justifications had better be. If an author expects me to buy a scene that shows Satan punching kittens for lulz, he can forget about it. That kind of gleeful nihilistic evil from what should be a reasonably intelligent demon only works in one of Nippon Ichi's tactical RPGs because the stories are essentially parodies of anime and JRPG tropes.

Skye Jules · Nov 10, 2009

I don't write villains. I write antagonists. Villains, to me, are cliche because they have absolutely no motive for what they're doing. They're just evil to be evil. Antagonists, on the other hand, have a motive, a deep, complex motive that makes you realize they're more human than monster like villains are.

I don't consider the modern day Joker a villain because his disturbed childhood is, in itself, a sort of motive for his psychotic behavior. His mentality is warped because of it; therefore, I consider him an antagonist.

I like books with antagonists because most "baddies" in real life have motives for what they're doing. Although we see them as evil, they see us as evil as well. Antagonists make you realize that evil is a subjective thing, whereas villains don't really have you contemplate on this at all.

Claudia Gray · Nov 10, 2009

mscelina said:
Strangely enough, I do too. I'd love to have the cajones to write a book in first person and end it with the character's death right in the middle of a word.

Although it's third-person overall, LOOKING FOR MR. GOODBAR ends as the main character is being murdered, and the last part of the final scene goes into her head, first person. I think it goes something like "Make it stop make it stop make it st"

The end.

It's incredibly striking.

DrZoidberg · Nov 11, 2009

Skye Jules said:
I like books with antagonists because most "baddies" in real life have motives for what they're doing. Although we see them as evil, they see us as evil as well. Antagonists make you realize that evil is a subjective thing, whereas villains don't really have you contemplate on this at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU

Making of a Great Villain

Jennasis

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Jennasis

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Canotila

Sever your leg please.

T.T. Lyre

Be not afraid.

CynV

The Original Cyn

Hagen

MGraybosch

Lunch Break Novelist

Hagen

DrZoidberg

aka TomOfSweden

Miyaka

Astrid

Khimera9

Rhys Cordelle

MGraybosch

Lunch Break Novelist

Skye Jules

March 15th: Issue 1 release

Claudia Gray

DrZoidberg

aka TomOfSweden