Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,159
Location
The right earlobe of North America
You're sitting in your chair, you're making your fingers move on the keyboard. How can this possibly be wrong?

Well, I'm living proof that it can be wrong for all kinds of reasons. But writing "out of order" ain't one of 'em. Think scenes. If you get hung up on one, go write another. That very well may kick you through the hung-upped one. Stitch them together later.

caw
 

jinkang

Learning
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
253
Reaction score
11
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
jinkang.livejournal.com
Hi everyone and Uncle Jim,

I had two questions but I realize now that one of them belongs in Short Fiction forum.

So, what is a bad writer? I've been reading Stephen King's On Writing, and I came across a passage that reminded me of your post: That you can make a competent writer good, but you can't make a good writer great. But in King's book, he also mentioned you can't make a bad writer competent.

Alas...something died in me when I read that. (Could be the sashimi I ate for lunch, actually)

Well, while I wait for another brutal truth to hit me like a train wreck, I'll go post that other question.
 

RJK

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
3,415
Reaction score
440
Location
Lewiston, NY
Hconn is right. A bad writer doesn't know he's bad, won't listen to those who try to help him improve, and insists he's right and the world is wrong.
You (not Jinkang) may be an unskilled writer, but you have the ability to become a better write.
 
Last edited:

jinkang

Learning
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
253
Reaction score
11
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
jinkang.livejournal.com
That's good to hear, because I know how bad I am...and that the only way left is up.

I'm shamed to admit but I once thought I didn't need rewrites. I think I dreaded looking back at my pieces and had somehow convinced myself that they were gold. Perhaps one word might have been. In that way, I'm grateful for that one rejection: it really kicked the foundation under me.

Now, as much as I dread, I can't wait for rewrites. I just regret that past ten years could have been more productive.

I've been reading that it does take ten years to learn and master new skills. I guess I'm looking at another ten now.
 

Ehab.Ahmed

Drifting Silently
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,132
Reaction score
151
Location
Somewhere up there
So, how does one know what they're writing is bad? How to tell a good sentence/paragraph/chapter from bad ones?
I want to be better but don't know where to look, so I'm just writing till I know.
 

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
6,449
Reaction score
1,321
So, how does one know what they're writing is bad? How to tell a good sentence/paragraph/chapter from bad ones?
I want to be better but don't know where to look, so I'm just writing till I know.


"Where to look" is in published books you enjoy reading.

The only way to build a sense of what's good writing (to you) and what's bad writing (to you) is to read a lot.

The other important thing is to master the mechanics of writing: getting all your tenses, grammar, syntax, and vocabulary choices up to professional levels.

And being in a writers' group or critique group, or swapping beta reads with another writer whose work you enjoy, are good ways to hone your skills.
 

Ehab.Ahmed

Drifting Silently
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,132
Reaction score
151
Location
Somewhere up there
The other important thing is to master the mechanics of writing: getting all your tenses, grammar, syntax, and vocabulary choices up to professional levels.

And being in a writers' group or critique group, or swapping beta reads with another writer whose work you enjoy, are good ways to hone your skills.
Well, I can already speak English correctly and I tend to be cautious about my grammar and spelling. Does this count?

About the "writers' group," where could I find one? And more importantly, what could they offer to me?

I have a question that's been bugging me lately. What does it mean when people criticize novels by saying it's not a good work of literature? They said that about Dan Brown (the one who got me into writing) and also I think they've said that about Twilight author, Stephenie Meyer. What is that all about?

Thanks for your reply, by the way :)
 
Last edited:

HConn

Whore for genre
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
814
Reaction score
182
Location
Inside a cursed painting
Website
www.harryjconnolly.com
First thing to be aware of is the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Next is to measure the responses of people who read your work. If you post a story on your blog and your regular readers, unprompted, post links to it, you're doing well.

There's really no other way I'd measure competence. When you publish a novel, its success will depend on the word of mouth of strangers; if no one seems interested in spreading the word, there's more work to do.

This also does an end run around issues of "good" and "bad" books. While discussions of whether a kind of book is good or not is worthwhile (and fun!) it's actually a millstone around the neck of a writer trying to break in. There will always be people who dislike your books (even mine, if such a thing can be imagined). But are there readers who want to share it?

The struggle to improve your work is another matter. Every writer needs different help, but there are a couple of tricks to try.

First, as Uncle Jim suggests, retype the first chapter of a favorite novel. Especially a novel similar to the one you're writing. It doesn't take very long, but it will help you with sentence structure, voice, and all the good stuff.

Then, hold up the first page of your work and the first of the retyped one. How do they compare? Are they just as interesting? Do things happen in an original way?

Then go through the first three pages of your manuscript. Highlight all the verbs. Are they interesting? If not, don't try to change the words, look at the story you're telling.

Then read a book similar to yours that you'd like to emulate, and outline it. How long until the main conflict is established? How much page-space on exposition? On outright conflict? How many plot twists, and how often do they come?

And so on. Another useful thing is to read others' descriptions of what they like and dislike.

At least, those are the things that helped me. Each writer has different strengths and weaknesses, so each would need different medicine.

Good luck.
 

Calliopenjo

Esteemed thinker
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
892
Reaction score
51
Location
In a townhouse over looking the tumble weed fields
Well, I can already speak English correctly and I tend to be cautious about my grammar and spelling. Does this count?

About the "writers' group," where could I find one? And more importantly, what could they offer to me?

I have a question that's been bugging me lately. What does it mean when people criticize novels by saying it's not a good work of literature? They said that about Dan Brown (the one who got me into writing) and also I think they've said that about Twilight author, Stephenie Meyer. What is that all about?

Thanks for your reply, by the way :)

There are online writer's groups. Google Online Writing Groups and a few should pop up. Be nice and follow the rules. Everything should be fine.

Different groups offer different things. Most offer camaraderie. By reading and critting other stories, you are learning what points might improve your story as well. Often times, we don't see our own mistakes (at least I don't), so another set of eyes will help to pick what parts need improvement. It also helps us to gauge the sort of reaction the story will bring.

As for literary critics, I think it's the same as movie critics. To each their own and everybody has their own opinion. The only thing I can suggest, is go to www.amazon.com and in the SEARCH bar type in the name of the book. If there's a LOOK INSIDE feature, click that and read the first pages and see what you think. Often times, what you'll find is that your opinion is different than somebody else's.
 

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
6,449
Reaction score
1,321
Well, I can already speak English correctly and I tend to be cautious about my grammar and spelling. Does this count?

Yep, that's good.

About the "writers' group," where could I find one? And more importantly, what could they offer to me?

In your local area: check to see if people have put up flyers at the library; check Craigslist and LiveJournal groups for your area, if you have them.

On the Internet: I think some people have organized them here on AW.com.

I have a question that's been bugging me lately. What does it mean when people criticize novels by saying it's not a good work of literature?

I've never heard anyone say that exact thing--could you amplify?

They said that about Dan Brown (the one who got me into writing) and also I think they've said that about Twilight author, Stephenie Meyer. What is that all about?

Well, my own point of view on Brown and Meyer is that both demonstrate sloppy writing (from the level of basic grammar and syntax up to the levels of poor characterization and awkward dialogue) and lazy plotting. But they have the gift of coming up with stories that people really want to read, so kudos to them for that.
 

Ehab.Ahmed

Drifting Silently
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,132
Reaction score
151
Location
Somewhere up there
Well, my own point of view on Brown and Meyer is that both demonstrate sloppy writing (from the level of basic grammar and syntax up to the levels of poor characterization and awkward dialogue) and lazy plotting. But they have the gift of coming up with stories that people really want to read, so kudos to them for that.

Could you explain it more to me, what you meant by sloppy writing. I mean, I've read almost all of Brown's books (hadn't read his last yet) and I didn't notice any "sloppiness" in regard to what noted. I really admire the way he tells a story, hooks you and still manages to teach you something or two (general knowledge-wise)

thanks
 

BigWords

Geekzilla
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
10,670
Reaction score
2,360
Location
inside the machine
I really admire the way he tells a story, hooks you and still manages to teach you something or two (general knowledge-wise)

His level of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter he chooses is very, very loosely based in reality. It's easier to compare his books to the Indiana Jones films - you know there isn't a network of tunnels under Venice, for logical reasons, but the story insists that they be there for plot... It's hard to find an actual fact that Dan Brown didn't twist around in some way or other.
 

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,787
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
Story, as Teresa Nielsen Hayden is fond of saying, is a force of nature.

How do you know if you're writing well? Your readers will tell you.

Recall that you as the writer are only doing half of the work of creation. Your reader is doing the other half, compiling your words into story.
 

Ehab.Ahmed

Drifting Silently
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,132
Reaction score
151
Location
Somewhere up there
Twisting facts to create fiction is what fiction is all about, right? Besides Brown's books take place in real life locations, just the plot is fiction I'd say. Some of his facts are misleading and some are even wrong. But still, I wouldn't say his books are "very" loosely based on facts. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start a debate or something, just trying to better understand your point of view while telling you mine :)
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
I thought Da Vinci Code was unmitigated Cr*p. But it's nice to know that even stuff this poor can make a best seller / film etc. Gives me hope.
 

bearilou

DenturePunk writer
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
6,004
Reaction score
1,233
Location
yawping barbarically over the roofs of the world
Could you explain it more to me, what you meant by sloppy writing. I mean, I've read almost all of Brown's books (hadn't read his last yet) and I didn't notice any "sloppiness" in regard to what noted. I really admire the way he tells a story, hooks you and still manages to teach you something or two (general knowledge-wise)

thanks

Re: Sloppiness

Conjuring from memory but I can tell you two things Dan Brown did that contributed towards me putting his book down and never picking up another one. (I'm going from memory since I've long given the book away, so some details are a bit sketchy)

Angels and Demons, when Frank Langely was being given the tour of CERN before he was shown the 'case' he was to help out on. He was with the guy in the wheelchair and they were watching the wind tunnel and the scientist who were 'skydiving'. One particularly heavy woman had a square bit of cloth and when Frank asked why she had one, the man explained something to the effect that even that one bit of cloth could slow her speed while falling and she could survive it.

Now, none of that bugged me. I was actually with him. Until he wrote in the book something to the effect of 'Little did Frank know that in 24 hours that information would save his life.'

Ok. As a reader, Dan Brown just insulted me. I figured that it was important. He was the writer and as such, when a writer writes something like that, as a pretty smart reader...I can figure out it might be something that comes in as important later. I did not need Dan Brown to beat me over the head with that. LOOK HERE! THIS IS IMPORTANT! YOU'LL NEED TO KNOW THIS LATER!

The defining moment of me putting the book down was him taking the oh-so-beautiful-and-sexy-and-smart-and-attracted-to-me-dur-dur-dur female companion with him into the Vatican City. He clearly outlined all the rules of even being able to visit there (women had to cover their legs or something) and Frank bulldozed getting his little tanned-brown bunny into the library without any of the soldiers there getting the woman a pair of pants? It was an affront and an insult to let her in there in shorts and they couldn't get her more appropriate clothing if it was that damned important he take her with him to do research?

And if I recall correctly, she (or they) were handling very fragile manuscripts without gloves?

That was Dan Brown (via Frank Langely) flying in the face of tradition and convention and spitting on it. I disliked him then and there (both hims, writer and protag) and put the book down.

To me, that was sloppy writing. Wave away inconvienent stuff because it might get in the way of his SOOPERSPECHUAL characters being SOOPERSPECUAL.

:D
 

Ehab.Ahmed

Drifting Silently
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,132
Reaction score
151
Location
Somewhere up there
Those things you mentioned could bug you and even irritate you, but I don't see that reason enough to not read his novel. You and I may have different tastes and even different limits of what we can accept in our diet, but really, look past those short comings and enjoy the book. I know I do it and give the authors a chance since I'm hoping readers will do the same for me when I get finally to releasing my book. Not that I'm saying I'll write cr*p and expect people to read it, just that if some inconsistencies do manage to slip through.

Best regards.
 

MumblingSage

Inarticulate Herb
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
2,308
Reaction score
349
Location
in a certain state of mind
First thing to be aware of is the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Wikipedia said:
If they can be trained to substantially improve their own skill level, these individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill.

Oh yes, that's what happened to me about three years ago. I'm not sure what hurt more--realizing I was a poor writer, or realizing what a nassisitic idiot I was when I thought I was a good writer. Either way, I probably would have felt a little better had I known about this effect before. Interesting.

Those things you mentioned could bug you and even irritate you, but I don't see that reason enough to not read his novel.
What better reason not to read a novel than because you don't like it? I don't like reading romance in a modern-day setting, but should I read Nora Roberts anyway?

Bearilou gave Dan Brown a chance, and Dan Brown blew it (for her, others might--and do--still enjoy reading him). Nobody can ask much more than that.
 
Last edited:

Ehab.Ahmed

Drifting Silently
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,132
Reaction score
151
Location
Somewhere up there
Well, I'll stop here. I don't want to endlessly discuss something that doesn't matter anyhow. You like Brown? Good for you, if not, then your choice. That's all.

I think we all want to sell books because they're good. I don't see why people might buy a book if it was bad. But to each their own.
 

bearilou

DenturePunk writer
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
6,004
Reaction score
1,233
Location
yawping barbarically over the roofs of the world
Well, I'll stop here. I don't want to endlessly discuss something that doesn't matter anyhow. You like Brown? Good for you, if not, then your choice. That's all.

I think we all want to sell books because they're good. I don't see why people might buy a book if it was bad. But to each their own.


To clarify, I don't think this conversation has gone there yet. I've watched this exact same conversation get ugly is all.

I want to write up not down. I don't want to be as good as Dan Brown, I want to be as good as James D. Macdonald. I want to sell my book because it's good.

Something told me to delete my comment as soon as I hit post. Still I forged ahead.

Ehab Ahmed asked why someone would considered Dan Brown a sloppy writer and I provided specific opinion based on my experience.

Ah well. Live and learn. Should have listened to my intuition.
 

smsarber

Coming soon to a nightmare near you
Requiescat In Pace
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
4,855
Reaction score
1,549
Age
50
Location
Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loath
I never read Brown because his writing goes against everything I believe as a Christian. That being said, WHO CARES? The guy makes money. Go out and write your own books. Make your own money.