Homosexual characters (and including irrelevant information)

kaitie · Nov 20, 2009

I can understand that, but I actually feel like in the context of the show it's done well. He comes from a time period in the future when sexual orientation literally doesn't matter. That's stated in the shows. In his time, it is completely normal and acceptable for a man to have a relationship with a man, or a woman with a woman, or a man with an alien. His lifestyle reflects a more open sexual freedom from the time period he comes from.

He does face prejudice in the current time on occasion for this, but all in all the sexuality is something in the background and not a main part of the story. What I like about it is that you have a character with completely different views on sexuality than what is currently considered the norm who has a strong following of fans--because of who he is not because of who he sleeps with. It's a big step up, in my opinion.

We obviously have a long way to go before homosexual and bisexual characters (or people, which is sad) are accepted as perfectly normal members of our society, and I feel that certain characters make that transition a bit easier for many people. I have more to say on this but I can't go into it without getting political lol, which I actually avoid over here.

aquacat · Nov 20, 2009

Since you're talking it up so much, I feel like I should check it out. I'm willing to take your word that it's a good character, and I'm glad to hear that in the context of the show he's portrayed positively.

BigWords · Nov 20, 2009

The Otter said:
If his bisexuality is treated as the REASON he's promiscuous, then it's a stereotype. But if he just happens to be a promiscuous character who's also a bisexual, then that's simply part of his character.

He just happens to be a bit of a slapper. It isn't because he is bi (I would actually refer to him as omnisexual rather than bisexual due to his tastes), so the accusations that the character is a stereotype really don't hold. There should be clips on YouTube which demonstrate how well-rounded the character (surprisingly) is. He was created by Russell T. Davies, and R2D2 is himself a gay writer - he created Queer As Folk for Channel 4.

kaitie · Nov 20, 2009

aquacat said:
The reason you don't see novels like that is because there aren't trials associated with being a heterosexual in today's society that are equivalent to the experience of being queer, and the fact that you think the two are similar shows precisely why its important for stories to deal with issues like this, if they're used, in a sensitive way. We live in a world in which people are not only limited but sometimes flat-out killed for not being straight. How is that a more "self-important" topic or theme than any other?

And it's a "pet cause"? Something that affects every human being, though not in an equivalent way, is a "pet cause"? Wow. What do you write about? I'm sure the issues you find to be crucial could also be written off as a "pet cause" by someone with absolutely no stake in them. I suppose insisting on sensitivity in portrayals of sexuality would seem rather "hand waving and self-important" if you have no experience being part of a group that's oppressed based on sexuality.

Just wanted to edit to add that saying that persecution is the theme rather than the specifics of sexuality is a bit bullshit - persecution is only one theme that's relevant to sexuality, not all experiences or types of persecution are the same, and I don't think anyone here is explicitly talking about always writing about the persecution of certain kinds of sexuality - I don't want or need every queer character to be a lesson of the week about persecution, but I do ask that people both think about including non-hetero characters and think about how to make them full, developed, interesting human beings not just stereotypes or "lessons in tolerance" for a self-congratulatory audience. I don't see why that's such a "self-important" thing to ask, nor is it an impossible thing to produce. Ursula LeGuin did a beautiful job exploring gender and sexuality in The Left Hand of Darkness several decades ago, for instance.

The "pet cause" line bothers me as well because, to me anyway, it belittles the fact that people are being persecuted and facing prejudice in their daily lives.

I still get annoyed by characters who are written solely as a social statement. What I like to see are the characters who are just normal characters that we all root for who just happen to be different. Those are the characters that I think make the biggest difference, but are also the hardest to write.

aquacat · Nov 20, 2009

BigWords said:
He just happens to be a bit of a slapper. It isn't because he is bi (I would actually refer to him as omnisexual rather than bisexual due to his tastes), so the accusations that the character is a stereotype really don't hold. There should be clips on YouTube which demonstrate how well-rounded the character (surprisingly) is. He was created by Russell T. Davies, and R2D2 is himself a gay writer - he created Queer As Folk for Channel 4.

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the character in general was a stereotype, but that there is a stereotype about bisexuality being equivalent to promiscuity and based on the description it seemed like a problematic connection being made in the way the show is written. As I said, I've not seen the show, so I'm not making the argument that this is absolutely the case, and of course I think it's important to examine how something is being written before you make those arguments.

Though, you know, gay writers don't always automatically produce positive, non-stereotypical gay characters just because we think they should - look at Will & Grace. *shudder*

aquacat · Nov 20, 2009

kaitie said:
I still get annoyed by characters who are written solely as a social statement. What I like to see are the characters who are just normal characters that we all root for who just happen to be different. Those are the characters that I think make the biggest difference, but are also the hardest to write.

Totally agree - a token character is often worse than no representation at all. For me, all characters should be like all people - a combination of different traits which evolve from that character's experiences in the world and affect their options, their choices, how they see the world and how the world sees them.

But of course, as you say, that's a tall order.

kaitie · Nov 20, 2009

Will & Grace definitely fits into exactly the sort of thing I hate that I mentioned before. I kind of understand...it was the first time a gay character had been done in America as a main character, and they had to take an unaccepting audience and convince them to watch something that automatically makes them feel uncomfortable. The easiest way to do that was through a character who was over-the-top flamboyant and "safe." I think for what it did in opening doors it was probably a good thing, but I definitely think it is very, very far from what I think we should aim for as writers.

We have a bit more freedom because we don't have to worry about bringing in a specific number of viewers every week to stay on the air, and more importantly we don't have to worry about advertisers being willing to spend money on us. I also think we should have more pressure to produce a good result because of this.

I think the main point is to see a homosexual the same way we see our heterosexual characters. Yes, it does have an influence on life, our choices, the events we've faced, etc, but in the end it is just another aspect of our (hopefully) well-developed characters.

LOL...we just basically said the same thing haha.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 20, 2009

The Otter said:
If his bisexuality is treated as the REASON he's promiscuous, then it's a stereotype. But if he just happens to be a promiscuous character who's also a bisexual, then that's simply part of his character.

He really just happens to be happily and honestly and ethically available--he says it's pretty much the way it is in the future.

A.C. · Nov 20, 2009

Captain Jack is omnisexual.

Get with the program, people!

Deleted member 42 · Nov 20, 2009

kaitie said:
Will & Grace definitely fits into exactly the sort of thing I hate that I mentioned before. I kind of understand...it was the first time a gay character had been done in America as a main character.

Except it wasn't. There was Ellen, and before that in 1981, Love, Sidney, which wasn't as "masked" as some would have you think.

I picked up on the fact that the male lead was a gay single father, and I was just about to turn 18.

BigWords · Nov 20, 2009

A.C. said:
Captain Jack is omnisexual.

Which is how I referred to him.

ETA: For anyone wondering what a slapper is in Brit slang... Read this. It pretty much covers everything.

kaitie · Nov 20, 2009

A.C. said:
Captain Jack is omnisexual.

Get with the program, people!

I couldn't think of the word!

A.C. · Nov 20, 2009

BigWords said:
Which is how I referred to him.

Sorry, I skimmed your post! :flag:

kaitie · Nov 20, 2009

Medievalist said:
Except it wasn't. There was Ellen, and before that in 1981, Love, Sidney, which wasn't as "masked" as some would have you think.

I picked up on the fact that the male lead was a gay single father, and I was just about to turn 18.

I don't really remember Ellen (and I don't know the other one) so forgive me if I'm wrong on this, but if I remember right, the difference there was that it was added in after the fact. There were other shows that did that as well. There was a character and then after a few seasons it was announced that said character was gay. And, also if I recall, they lost major ratings after that.

As far as I can remember, and from what I've read (I wasn't really ever a fan of the show, have only seen a couple of episodes) Will and Grace was the first show that started from the get-go with an openly gay character. I think in general, though, it's seen as a big first. The fact that they aired a pilot featuring a gay man and managed to last as many seasons as they did was a pretty big deal, I think.

A.C. · Nov 20, 2009

I loved Will and Grace, but mostly because of Jack and Karen.

BigWords · Nov 20, 2009

Jack isn't a character, he's a caricature.

A.C. · Nov 20, 2009

I'm going to pretend you didn't say that!

(But honestly, I don't watch sitcoms for realistic characters.)

Salis · Nov 20, 2009

Medievalist said:
You've never read romance I take it.

That's sex, not sexuality.

eyeblink · Nov 20, 2009

Medievalist said:
Except it wasn't. There was Ellen, and before that in 1981, Love, Sidney, which wasn't as "masked" as some would have you think.

I picked up on the fact that the male lead was a gay single father, and I was just about to turn 18.

There was also Jodie (played by Billy Crystal) in Soap, which started in 1977. And according to Wikipedia, there were at least three US shows that had gay characters before that.

The Otter · Nov 20, 2009

Salis said:
That's sex, not sexuality.

I'd say that most romance novels are, on some level, about sexuality itself, not just about the physical act of two people having sex.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 20, 2009

Salis said:
That's sex, not sexuality.

Yeah, you've never read any.

And, frankly, it's pretty hard to separate sexuality, and orientation, from sex. There's a lot more to being queer than sex, but orientation very much affects how you relate to people and who you love, and how people relate to you.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 20, 2009

The Otter said:
I'd say that most romance novels are, on some level, about sexuality itself, not just about the physical act of two people having sex.

Absolutely; there are many romances that barely have the romantic leads kiss.

Salis · Nov 20, 2009

Medievalist said:
Yeah, you've never read any.

And, frankly, it's pretty hard to separate sexuality, and orientation, from sex. There's a lot more to being queer than sex, but orientation very much affects how you relate to people and who you love, and how people relate to you.

Based upon the fact you use the word "yeah,", I now know you've never read any historical books.

Boy, wasn't that fun.

To get back to the spirit of the original post, I find nothing objectionable about a character who just happens to be homosexual... or just happens to be bisexual, asexual (yes, this actually does exist), or heterosexual. I think there's a trap to be had here, though, that of stereotypes. It's probably easier to write a heterosexual than a homosexual for most people.

Then again, this is sort of why I find the distinction so silly. There is none. Being homosexual isn't like being friendly, flirty, shy, or aggressive. It's not a matter of personality, in the same sense that being a heterosexual male does not automatically make you, say, dominant or submissive.

So, is it okay for a character to be homosexual? Sure, if that's what the character is. The moment anyone (and no, this isn't aimed at anyone in this thread) starts going, "Damn, I really need to put a homosexual character in this story to be forward thinking" is the moment they lose me.

willietheshakes · Nov 20, 2009

kaitie said:
...all in all the sexuality is something in the background and not a main part of the story.

For Captain Jack?

Captain Jack Harkness?!?!?!?

Really?

(I see what you're saying, but that's a development/revelation of the character over time: he IS more complex and challenging than just his sexuality, but that omnisexuality IS foregrounded, extremely -- it's his dominant characteristic until you get to know him -- either as a character within the work, or as a viewer.)

Salis · Nov 20, 2009

willietheshakes said:
For Captain Jack?

Captain Jack Harkness?!?!?!?

Really?

(I see what you're saying, but that's a development/revelation of the character over time: he IS more complex and challenging than just his sexuality, but that omnisexuality IS foregrounded, extremely -- it's his dominant characteristic until you get to know him -- either as a character within the work, or as a viewer.)

I always felt the omnisexuality was really nothing more than an excuse for running jokes.

(The attempt to make it serious in Torchwood was, I felt, one of many missteps.)

Homosexual characters (and including irrelevant information)

With great power comes

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Geekzilla

With great power comes

.

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With great power comes

Deleted member 42

he saw it in the stars

Deleted member 42

Geekzilla

With great power comes

he saw it in the stars

With great power comes

he saw it in the stars

Geekzilla

he saw it in the stars

You Lie!

Barbara says hi

Friendly Neighborhood Mustelid

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

You Lie!

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

You Lie!