Short and Sweet~ Perspectives on Short Fiction

Lit Chick5 · Jan 31, 2010

In looking over materials on short story writing as a small portion of a simple course I was preparing, I revisited a lot of the theory behind short fiction that first and continues to inspire me to it. Since I'm relatively a newbie to AW, to introduce myself and meet like-minded writers, I wanted to share a few things for discussion, hear what fellow short fiction writers have to say, and hopefully offer some insights on what helped me. It seemed at first a difficult task to write a short as opposed to a novel. I know it sounds funny, but Mark Twain once wrote that it costs him as many false starts and stops to write a short story as it does a long one. In writing to a friend, he said 'If I'd had more time, I would've made this letter shorter.'

For me, it was about letting go of my own inner editor/censor, to let the ideas roam freely. To take an idea and make a powerful impression in only a few pages can be daunting. A fabulous book I found was the Portable MFA by the NY Writers Workshop- it's a reflection on the rules and how, if wanted, to break them. A short story that is the ideal example of leaving a powerful fast impression is "The Story of an Hour" by Kate Chopin (early 1900s author). Another helpful tidbit about getting to the core and getting there quickly is the anecdote about Hemingway~ he was asked to write a short story in as few words as possible. This was it "For Sale: Baby shoes, never worn." With that simple phrase, a million conclusions arise.

So for me it was a process of letting go, trusting the action to get where it needed in a few pages and being still enough to listen, but not overthink the story. Now that it's more practiced, I can let go more easily- if I'm stuck, I just combine different ideas or change the point-of-view of the story till I get it's 'voice'. The Observation Deck by Naomi Epel is another great tool to shake up your thinking. A story, even a short one, can stem from the smallest observation. Some of mine stem from dreams I had so I keep pen and paper close when I sleep.

I wondered about other contemporary writer philosophies on the process and wanted to share some of mine~

Alchemenos Prausti · Feb 3, 2010

The process of sitting down to write and just essentially improvising has never led to very good results for me. Good paragraphs, yes, but the works as a whole lack a sense of purpose and completeness. It leads to a lot of deletion. I find I'm more productive when I wait until I know the beginning and the end I'm going for, as well as at least one link in between. You can always add and subtract links as necessary and the whole will still retain its shape. I don't ever sit down and free write unless I'm out of known beginning/ending structures to work on. That doesn't really happen with me anymore, since I've been collecting and storing ideas for years.

Slushie · Feb 4, 2010

Lit Chick5 said:
A story, even a short one, can stem from the smallest observation. Some of mine stem from dreams I had so I keep pen and paper close when I sleep.

Heh. Same.

#

I don't really have a set method for writing shorts. Something I've been experiment with is writing the story backwards. I don't mean literally backwards. What I'm saying is, start with how it ends then figure out how the characters wound up that way. Then rearrange the events into chronological order. It helps my understanding of structure; it's fun too.

Lit Chick5 · Feb 4, 2010

You both make great points~ there is no defined science to writing shorts. Starting with the end and working backwards certainly can work just like starting with the answer to a math problem and then figuring out the equation. Recently I did a story where I started at the middle of the action. It wouldn't work to start the story conventionally- it had to begin at the climax, reflect backwards in the center and finally reach the denoument (hope I spelled that right), or the French term for the untying of the knots [the end of the story arc]. As to knowing the beginning and the end, it's much like having an outline. I admire that discipline! Oh how structure eludes me... (lol) But it's finding the balance of the scales. How do you feel about dialogue and description in a short story (how much, how little) and character sketching? White Oleander author Janet Fitch offered the notion in an interview that she first hears her characters' voices in her imagination- the protagonist reveals themselves last as though they are the camera in their fictional world seeing others; the more difficult part being trying to see into them.

Alchemenos Prausti · Feb 5, 2010

Lit Chick5 said:
How do you feel about dialogue and description in a short story (how much, how little) and character sketching?

In narrative art, I tend to feel the most successful works are the ones in which every piece of information you receive about a character has some function in the story with no superfluous detail. Let characters reveal themselves by what they do and say. Good dialogue can help a lot, but dialogue isn't a necessary story element, only a useful device. I love meaty characters, too, but I don't see them as ends in themselves. Oedipus is far from the richest, most complex protagonist in the history of drama, but he is nevertheless the centerpiece of perhaps the stage's greatest story. Compared to what you learn about Falstaff, for example, you only learn a smidgen about Oedipus. Doesn't matter. Try and care about anything but Oedipus when reading Sophocles.

Another illustration of this same principle is the film "United 93." The characters are all entirely forgettable, yet the it's a riveting watch from beginning to end.

When it comes to short stories, I feel there's very little room to go on and on about characters. Just give me enough detail so that my imagination doesn't hit any hiccups trying to visualize them living out their actions. Give me their words (even a lot of them), if they help. Ditto for setting. Tell me what I need to know about it and leave the rest out.

Lit Chick5 · Feb 8, 2010

Absolutely. I remember writing a short story which was highly narrative and introspective without too much dialogue. Every fact about the protagonist explained in the beginning turns out to have an entirely different meaning in the end. I'd heard so much discussion about putting in as much dialogue as possible with little to no introspection. I thought the story might be a hard sell to lit journals. It received 3 acceptances, but of course I went with the first and notified the others as proper procedure goes. It shows, however, that in such a small space, the story needs to be dynamic, cutting away the extraneous. When the book The Princess Bride was revamped and re-written, the author talked about the hundreds of superfluous pages elimanted. If I have a prominent character, I'm not caught up in the details of setting. However, in a story where a house was the main character, I didn't go too far in sketching the characters themselves. 3 cheers, Alchemenos! I have to ask~ what are your favorite short stories/films?

Jamesaritchie · Feb 9, 2010

I studied an awful lot of short story therory in college. Admittedly, most of it went in one ear and out the other, partially because I was already selling short stories before college. And largely, because of the saying. In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Most writers, and the more famous the writer, the more likely this is, really don't have a clue how they write what they write. But they have to say something, they have to write articles explaining what they don't know, or they have to teach students what they don't know, so they come up with an answer that gives perfect theory, no matter how wrong or inaccurate it might be in actual practice.

After about four years of study, I decided it was all ca-ca, blind men trying to describe an elephant. Somerset Maugham got it exactly right for novels and short stories when he said, "There are three rules for writing the novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

So I went back to what I'd been doing all along, which was following the advice of Ray Bradbury, Robert Heinlein, and Stephen King. Do not plot, do not plan, do not outline. Just get an idea, and write the story. If you know proper story structure, and you know where to open a story, this is not only all you need, its the only thing you should ever use.

After reading all teh theory my professors chould throw at me, I came to believe Ray Bradbury were dead right in some things they said.

Stephen King said, “Plot is, I think, the good writer's last resort and the dullard's first choice."

Ray Bradbury said, "Remember: Plot is no more than footprints left in the snow after your characters have run by on their way to incredible destinations. Plot is observed after the fact rather than before. It cannot precede action. It is the chart that remains when an action is through. That is all Plot ever should be."

Heinlein said the same, and added his five wonderful and indispensable business rules for writing.

HEINLEIN'S RULES FOR WRITING

1. You must write.
2. You must finish what you write.
3. You must refrain from rewriting, except to editorial order.
4. You must put the work on the market.
5. You must keep the work on the market until it is sold.

I never could discover who said it, but I also came to belive an anonymous quotation I once read. You should, after reading a thousand short stories, know exactly what a short story is, and how to write a good one. If not, read another thousand. If you still don't know, quit trying. You're in the wrong profession.

Lit Chick5 · Feb 9, 2010

Hats off to you, James. For me, I remember that the most validating philosophy freeing me to write was to toss the rule book. Many years ago in an advanced English course, we had to produce at least 3 drafts of our work. The first time I wrote a paper, editing through the basic technical aspects was when the paper was done. If a student didn't have those 3 drafts showing differences, points would be taken off of the grade even if it was an A paper. I can't tell you how much time I spent in making those faux drafts~ messing up the paper purposefully till finally I could turn it in with its original form intact. Everyone writes differently and that's something I don't think is understood in a classroom environment. There are many points in the book, Portable MFA New York Writers Workshop that I believe would resonate with you. The art of Stephen King is displayed well in one of his more recent short stories- title escapes me- but it was about a hitch-hiker. The protagonist is talking in his car, a sure sign of departing from traditional short story theory, and by the end, the reader is breathless and astounded with little to no person to person dialogue in the entire story. I love your end quote~ I'd like to try and find who wrote that! Here a few "writing quotes" that are dear to my philosophy~ "Writing is an adventure. To begin with, it is a toy and an amusement. Then it becomes a mistress, then it becomes a master, then it becomes a tyrant. The last phase is that just as you are about to be reconciled to your servitude, you kill the monster and fling him to the public"- Winston Churchill, "If you do not breathe through writing, if you do not cry out in writing, or sing in writing, then don't write, because our culture has no use for it"- Anais Nin , and Somerset Maugham- "When I read a book I seem to read it with my eyes only, but now and then I come across a passage, perhaps only a phrase, which has a meaning for me, and it becomes part of me."

Slushie · Feb 9, 2010

Lit Chick5 said:
The art of Stephen King is displayed well in one of his more recent short stories- title escapes me- but it was about a hitch-hiker. The protagonist is talking in his car, a sure sign of departing from traditional short story theory, and by the end, the reader is breathless and astounded with little to no person to person dialogue in the entire story.

Sounds like you're referring to "Mute", where the protag is talking, or venting, to a hitchhiker and then [CENSORED SPOILER

]. The story was in Playboy a couple years ago and I still have the issue.

Lit Chick5 · Feb 10, 2010

Yes~ "Mute". An incredible story in only a few pages. What are guy friends for but to rip out the appropriate pages for us ladies? (lol) Aside from the moderate feminist outrages I might have about some of the content in that magazine, I will say that the interviews and literature can be great. In a folder of what I feel are 'great' writing examples are the torn out pages from "Mute" and a few interviews, one being of Johnny Depp. I was quite surprised when I heard of some of the exemplary journalism Shel Silverstein (primarily known as a children's author and poet) had contributed to that publication. But it goes to show the various facets of a writer~ F. Scott Fitzgerald said that there never was a good biography of an author- there couldn't be- he was too many people if he was any good. So- not judging a book by its cover. And the mediums of fiction and non-fiction inevitably commune with one another- Stephen King started his own newspaper as a young boy. To get a powerful story across in a short space, whether for an article or for a short, many of the same skills are tapped into. Thank you Slushie for the title~ amazing, shocking story right? Did you see that end coming? (Don't want to spoil it)

Alchemenos Prausti · Feb 12, 2010

Lit Chick5 said:
I have to ask~ what are your favorite short stories/films?

I posted a list of some of my favorite shorts here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4599032#post4599032

Some of my favorite films, in no particular order:

The Godfather (I & II)
Casablanca
2001: A Space Odyssey
Schindler's List
Five Easy Pieces
Rear Window
The Purple Rose of Cairo
The Bicycle Thief
Shame
Taxi Driver
The Thin Red Line
Mean Streets
Singin' in the Rain
The Rules of the Game
No Country for Old Men
The Wild Bunch
Chinatown
The Deer Hunter
Unforgiven
Jaws
Synecdoche, New York
The Remains of the Day
Citizen Kane
The Departed
Dr Strangelove
All the President's Men
The Magnificent Ambersons

I could go on and on.

You?

Alchemenos Prausti · Feb 12, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
Do not plot, do not plan, do not outline. Just get an idea, and write the story. If you know proper story structure, and you know where to open a story, this is not only all you need, its the only thing you should ever use.

I hope some day to reach a point where I can start a story, let it flow from me effortlessly, and have all the elements come out internally consistent. It would certainly save me a lot of time. The first two parts don't pose much of a challenge anymore, but whether those events resemble reality and survive a dispassionate assessment is another matter. I think writers who routinely churn out novels in a matter of weeks like King and even Dostoevsky suffer from this. At least for now, I need a skeleton around which to apply muscle and flesh, or else I end up with a blob of muscle and flesh. Trying to stick a skeleton in later to make the damn thing stand up is a trick I haven't yet learned.

Jamesaritchie said:
Stephen King said, “Plot is, I think, the good writer's last resort and the dullard's first choice."

Ray Bradbury said, "Remember: Plot is no more than footprints left in the snow after your characters have run by on their way to incredible destinations. Plot is observed after the fact rather than before. It cannot precede action. It is the chart that remains when an action is through. That is all Plot ever should be."

I don't doubt that many good writers are able to succeed with this philosophy. God knows that King and Bradbury are a hell of a lot more successful than I'll probably ever be. I think a good writer, though, should be able to make a story seem spontaneous and unplanned even if, behind the scenes, it is anything but.

There are great actors who can step into a scene with very little preparation and deliver an authentic performance, but it is a matter of scope. Taking that approach for an entire feature role is a sure recipe for failure. The best actors learn their parts inside-out before the public sees their work. They may not know exactly how they're going to deliver each line before they step on stage, but they know every word they're going to say, everything their character has done and is capable of, and about 95% of the possibilities for a run-through that don't contradict the text. And yet they can make that run-through seem as though it's happening for the first time right in front of your eyes. They can do it night after night.

The important question is whether writing a novel is more like a role or more like a performance. In my opinion, it's the former, unless you're writing a series in which you already know the main characters cold.

Look at most successful sitcoms. The writers start out with an idea of what the show is about and who the characters are, but they're really just poking around in a process of discovery. After several seasons of internalizing the characters, the work becomes orders of magnitude stronger and the early episodes suffer by comparison. There are probably many sitcom writers who wish they would have spent a lot more planning time on the pilot before trying to pitch a series (although they may be glad they got their foot in the door when they could).

Lit Chick5 · Feb 15, 2010

Thank you so much for sharing your favorite short stories and films! To the philosophy of comparing writing to a stage performance, I have to agree that it suits my style and mode of working. Sometimes I can have the vague inkling of a plan~ this is an unsteady atom you see, very rare. And then, as my stories tend to do by way of the very much alive characters, it splits!.. going off in a totally opposite direction. There is something amazing about letting go and letting the ideas flow across the page without the inner editor/censor. I do, however, start with a focus and grow a blurred outline from there like a seed planted. I wish I had more discipline for a full outline. Yet whether fully planned or unplanned, it does come out to the same thing~ to quote a line from Pride and Prejudice "it has to have as unrehearsed an air as possible". Characters, so much like in television program as you mentioned, do grow into themselves. When the actors feel what the character feels for awhile, move in their skin, the plots become more smooth because in predicting the character's psychology, the writers get the reality- the humanity- and humanity is predictably unpredictable, so it comes off as fresh and improvised. Fraiser is a great example of that I think. The later seasons are incredible- so natural. A favorite film of mine is the Painted Veil. Naomi Watts and Edward Norton helped write the screenplay and I must say that it was better portrayed in the film medium than in the original novel- the book characters deeply lacked that subtle reality and vulnerability that we all possess. Conversely, Memoirs of a Geisha, was a wonderful film, but the book was far more powerful in it's description and characterization. Favorite films... hmm... here are some~

Dead Poet's Society (passion of writing!)
The Painted Veil (human frailty and strength of redemption)
The Joy Luck Club (claiming one's history and identity)
Anna and the King (so much to say...)
Love Potion #9

The Notebook xo
A Walk in the Clouds
First Knight
Revolutionary Road
most Kate Winslet films
Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood
The Departed
Godfather I, II
The Thornbirds
The English Patient
The Thomas Crown Affair
Seven Years in Tibet
Meet Joe Black
Romeo and Juliet (1968)
Long Hot Summer
To Catch a Thief
A Beautiful Mind

and it goes on and on from there...

Elias Graves · Feb 15, 2010

Perhaps the best string of posts on this entire site.
Well done all.

EG

Lit Chick5 · Feb 15, 2010

Wow- thank you so much! Everone is giving great feedback. It's refreshing to come across a meeting of the minds and gain different perspectives. Short fiction is such an intricate category. In compiling and organizing various short stories of mine from over the years, I'm seeing the body of work through the reader's eyes. Readers that have followed the work over time pointed out certain underlying themes and distinctions that I'm only coming to know now. Though it's said that we learn about the world through writing, it is also true that we learn about ourselves. I'd love to hear your thoughts as well! And in addition any films, novels. short stories that you hold in high regard... Thank you again for weighing in!

I'm still relatively new to AW, so it's nice to meet you EG!

Polenth · Feb 15, 2010

Lit Chick5, would it be possible for you to edit your posts and add paragraph breaks? I get lost in long paragraphs, and it means I'm not sure what you're saying.

Elias Graves · Feb 15, 2010

Lit Chick5 said:
Wow- thank you so much! Everone is giving great feedback. It's refreshing to come across a meeting of the minds and gain different perspectives. Short fiction is such an intricate category. In compiling and organizing various short stories of mine from over the years, I'm seeing the body of work through the reader's eyes. Readers that have followed the work over time pointed out certain underlying themes and distinctions that I'm only coming to know now. Though it's said that we learn about the world through writing, it is also true that we learn about ourselves. I'd love to hear your thoughts as well! And in addition any films, novels. short stories that you hold in high regard... Thank you again for weighing in! I'm still relatively new to AW, so it's nice to meet you EG!

Likewise. I can easily name Doyle as my favorite short story artist. I obtain more enjoyment from a cold evening spent in the riveting company of Holmes and Watson than any other form of entertainment. Given that I am no fan of mysteries, my addiction to Holmes is, well, a mystery. My wife has always told me that I belong to another century. Perhaps she is correct.

My favorite story, while not a novel, must surely be Beowulf. Good writing is as much a study in history as philosophy to me.

Films leave me wanting. I much prefer to read a story than watch it play out. My imagination is a far better producer than anyone in Hollywood.

Honestly, I've been away from the world of fiction and writing for a very long time. I studied English lit and creative writing in college then promptly became sidetracked with a family and a career. Only in the last few months have I begun to rekindle my creative juices. I have begun work on a novel and (jumps gleefully) finished my first short story in 25 years tonight. Now I must begin poking around other parts of this site to figure out what to do with it next.

Look forward to more of your posts. I like your style.

EG

Lit Chick5 · Feb 18, 2010

EG, your phrase "Good writing is as much a study in history as philosophy to me," strikes a strong chord with me. I've been studying mythic literature and psychology in terms of how people are predispositioned to archetypes and storytelling, and the philosophies that come out of that research reaffirm much of my belief about writing- it's importance, history and so forth.

In ancient Celtic history, poets ranked only under kings in significance as they were the keepers of the legacies, dreams and hopes of the realm. If your wife tells you that you're from another century, don't be dismayed- my whole family says that to me

Writers are almost always living in either the past or the future. It's hard to settle us creative types in the present.

Congratulations on your return to writing!!!

If only I could slow down enough to get back to work on the short story that has eluded me for a month!

And to Polenth, noted- paragraphing going forward!

Elias Graves · Feb 18, 2010

I suppose I do tend to shift around through all the centuries. Last night was spent between 1st century Rome and 19th century London. Literature is the safest form of time travel I've yet discovered.
Viewing another time through the author's words has always seemed the most accurate way for me to study history. Historians nearly always write after the fact and always with a bias. One never knows what agenda they may have when reporting facts.
Authors, on the other hand, can't help but be themselves regardless of which voice they choose or what mask they wear. To me, history is not about who did what to whom, but rather how a people saw the world. What did they value? What did they cast off?
Historians, in their attempts to record facts, record only opinions while writers, attempting to create fiction, reveal only the truth.

EG

Lit Chick5 · Feb 18, 2010

"Historians, in their attempts to record facts, record only opinions while writers, attempting to create fiction, reveal only the truth"- quite true, EG. I recommend a book to you entitled, The Awakening by Kate Chopin. It was far ahead of its time and so deeply controversial when published in the early 1900's. There are aspects a reader can love or hate, but the commentary on the restrictions of society and the descriptions are incredible. In his plays, Shakespeare was ever commenting on the world around him; The Tempest is a good example of this. Also, the song Scarborough Fair had its true origins in the 16th century and the real meaning is entirely different than the one we've come to know. Writers, we time travelers, have a timeless vocation- the keys to all worlds. I recall a history teacher that went beyond the textbook to tell us about the very human, concrete aspects of the passions of those he described (Robert E. Lee, Grant) and those classes are the ones I'll remember more than any others.

Elias Graves · Feb 18, 2010

The realization of literature as historian first struck me during my sophomore year in college. I had a US history survey class followed immediately by an American lit survey course.
Both classes covered the same time time frame, 1865 to the present so I was always reading the facts and figures of the history alongside the literature of the time. It struck me there that I learned more about the people who inhabited that century by reading what they created with their own voices infinitely more than the recitation of dates and interpretations of those who hadn't been there.
An authentic voice, even though the facts may not be in order, provides better instruction than a list of battles.
Beowulf tells me more about his world with his fantastic tale than all the archeologists over the whale road.
While the events may or may not be real...the events they imagined, the turn of phrase, the mood...provide a keener insight into their minds than I can gain any other way.

Back to shorts...I'm going to put myself to bed with Charles Augustus Milverton.

EG

theDF_underground · Feb 19, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
Do not plot, do not plan, do not outline. Just get an idea, and write the story.

Here I was, reading along in this thread, trying to formulate some sort of coherent description of how these things come together for me, and there it is. I don't plot or plan or outline; I've tried. It doesn't work for me. I once got an entire concept for a novel out of a title of a movie I saw on a shelf at Blockbuster. I got the idea, and I wrote it down. It ended up being an 80,500-word idea. Same goes for the inspiration for some of my short stories. Sometimes, it just happens. Luck of the draw? That's good enough for me.

Elias Graves · Feb 20, 2010

Seeds are everywhere. It's up to us to make them grow.

EG

Lit Chick5 · Feb 20, 2010

theDF_underground said:
Here I was, reading along in this thread, trying to formulate some sort of coherent description of how these things come together for me, and there it is. I don't plot or plan or outline; I've tried. It doesn't work for me. I once got an entire concept for a novel out of a title of a movie I saw on a shelf at Blockbuster. I got the idea, and I wrote it down. It ended up being an 80,500-word idea. Same goes for the inspiration for some of my short stories. Sometimes, it just happens. Luck of the draw? That's good enough for me.

Welcome, DF! For me, I've found it immensely validating to know that other short fiction writers work similarly, where, as you put it "it just happens". I enjoyed your Blockbuster anecdote! A story I'm working on right now was scribbled on a piece of paper during an art class I took years ago. It began with a sentence- a scene- in my mind that had nothing to do with my surroundings. Janet Fitch commented in an interview that she "hears" the characters first in her mind similar to the state of dreaming where each person has aspects of you and composites of others.

It sounds like your process- even better than luck of the draw!

Kate Thornton · Feb 22, 2010

I like to write from a single idea, allowing the story to tell itself, keeping in mind that a real short story has a beginning, a middle and an end - or in some of my instances, the two ends of a double twist.

Recently, I looked over a couple of dozen of my stories, looking for a commonality among the flashes and novellas, among the mysteries and the science fiction and I discovered it.

I was so pleased at that common thread, that I decided to pick twenty or so for a collection. I am working on it now, slowly but with deliberation and a schedule. I want the entire thing to come in at around 60,000 words with a modicum of cohesion, so the order in which the stories are presented will be very important.

But as I have been writing for some time, I am going through the work of transcribing printed stories into my computer (the early stories were written either before computer use or on floppy disks which have deteriorated) and trying not to edit them out of their original existence. It is tedious in some ways, but I like re-reading some of the stuff from 15+ years ago and seeing what was important to me thematically then and now.

I'm not sure this collection will be a complete success, but I do want to see it. I don't have any problems with rights (they have all reverted to me except in one unfortunate instance where I no longer own that particular story and will not be able to use it) but finding copies has been a real trip down printed memory lanes & through dusty electronic archives.

PS Good historians record that which will be of interest to the future: the human condition at a given time.

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