Finding an Agent, or Agency, daunting task!

Sepisllib · Feb 24, 2010

Following my entanglement with PA I have learned a lot. However, maybe not enough yet.

Looking at the massive nummbers of Agents, Agencies, and Publishers out there - my efforts to sift through the extreme numbers and sort out the "less than desirable" ones is proving to be a daunthing task.

Since I received the "slap in my face" by the realization that PA takes advantage of all who cross their path, I have completely altered my original work - to the point it is changed completely as far as characters, places, and everything at the same time expanding and enhancing the length and debth of the manuscript. Not sure what I will do with it yet, however I will likely wait until I have regained rights to both of my works with PA before making a decision.

In the meantime, I have numerous other works, one just finished and submitted to three agancies. It is just barely under 60,000 words and Christian based, fiction / romance piece.

All the rest, six of them, are presently in excess of 45,000 words.

I am totally open to suggestions on finding a good agent, or agency which will be interested and honest to my work.

Thoughts?

In the meantime - progressing nicely toward my other goal or extablishing a seperate book sales system and while many questions are yet to be addressed, several are now behind us and still a go.

God Bless

Bill

Cyia · Feb 24, 2010

Have you tried Rachelle Gardner?

Gravity · Feb 24, 2010

Bill, check out Christian Writers Market Guide, the 2010 edition (any bigger bigger bookstore should carry it in their resource section). It's chockablock with houses, agents, and so forth. Like anything else, you'll want to thoroughly vet whichever ones you find, but it's a great resource.

PVish · Feb 24, 2010

Have you looked through Guide to Literary Agents? Or checked out the blog by the editor of Guide to Literary Agents? Or read some agents' blogs?

scully931 · Feb 24, 2010

You might also want to post this in a thread dedicated to your specific genre. As this is a section on PA there might be a lot of helpful people who never see your post just because they don't read about PA.

Take heart, nearly everyone on this board has had to sift through the long list of agents. You can do it.

James D. Macdonald · Feb 24, 2010

A useful agent has sold books that you've heard of.

Gillhoughly · Feb 24, 2010

Go to a bookstore that sells works similar to your own.

Get the names of the publishers from the inside front page. You can see who takes unsolicited submissions.

Get the names of the writers.

Look them up on line; see if they mention their agent. A short, polite mail asking if they might recommend an agent will usually get a reply.

Sepisllib · Feb 24, 2010

Thank you all - and I have been fairly active in doing some of the recommendations.

Sometimes I think it's easier to write the manuscript than to find a good agent and/or publisher.

I did have someone tell me about Tate - so I checked them out and was once again hugely disappointed. Too bad that folks feel they must operate their business in this mode - oh well, life goes on and so do I

God Bless

Bill

James D. Macdonald · Feb 24, 2010

Tate is a vanity press. They charge $4,000.

If you've written a book that others want to read, you can get the publisher to pay you, rather than the other way around.

The response to rejection is to write a new, different, better book.

kullervo · Feb 25, 2010

And do be aware of the odds. One agent who blogs got 38,000 queries last year and took on six new clients. Many writers get frustrated by their struggle and end up signing with a scam agent (or publisher) out of pure annoyance. Don't do it. The truth is that the majority (I hesitate to say vast majority but it probably is) of books do not find a legit agent or publisher. Be ready for that. Start writing your next book. Agents are looking for writers— people who want careers and will continue to produce. They aren't looking for those many folks who produced one book and have been shopping it for the last five years.

Sepisllib · Feb 26, 2010

kullervo said:
And do be aware of the odds. One agent who blogs got 38,000 queries last year and took on six new clients. Many writers get frustrated by their struggle and end up signing with a scam agent (or publisher) out of pure annoyance. Don't do it. The truth is that the majority (I hesitate to say vast majority but it probably is) of books do not find a legit agent or publisher. Be ready for that. Start writing your next book. Agents are looking for writers— people who want careers and will continue to produce. They aren't looking for those many folks who produced one book and have been shopping it for the last five years.

Thank you - the information you expounded on is something I believe needs to be told, however most just never "say" it.

I have come to that conclusion also and that is part of the frustrations in dealing with the situation. My very first, and second because of the time flow, experience turned out not the greatest. I hate doing things and then encountering folks that just measure their success by the level of their "Greed".

I have not stopped writing and now have 8 more ready to submit. Rather, truthfully, I have 3 more actually ready to submit and am quietly working that direction, however the other 5 I am in various levels of editing them.

I plan on spending substantial effort to work through the "Maze" of agents, agencies, and/or publishers and absolutely will never again be suckered in by the likes of PA. That includes folks that operate like Tate.

In the process, as it unfolds, I am working hard on establishing an alternative, honest, ethical, and forthright company by which I, and other authors like myself, may have the ability to publish and market their work without being taken advantage of.

I appreciate, and value, each input and the best part is I learn from each of you.

Thank you all

God Bless

Bill

stormie · Feb 26, 2010

Bill,
First, take one of your manuscripts--the one you like best--and make it even better. Reread it, polish it, make it hook the reader and draw them in.

Then don't give up looking for an agent to rep you. If your ms. is very good, it WILL attract at least one agent, but make sure you target agents who rep what you write.

The numbers may be daunting in finding an agent or publisher, but it can be done. It happens every day. There are many, many success stories.

You mention wanting to start your own company. I know of a writer who was also a professor of writing at a university. He couldn't get an agent or a publisher for his first book so he self-published. The book wasn't that great. The beginning was dull, dull, dull. Then he decided to start his own publishing company. He knew hardly anything about the business, but thought he did. After about two years of struggling, it closed.

I just think that immediately feeling that the task to get an agent or publisher is too hard, is like giving up too soon.

AC Crispin · Feb 26, 2010

99% of the publishing companies started up by frustrated former PublishAmerica authors wind up treating their authors poorly, if not outright scamming them out of their money.

Almost all of these companies fold after a year or so, unless they morph into outright scam publishers, charging authors to stay afloat.

I believe all the people who started these companies did so with good intentions at the outset.

But without any experience in publishing, they all either sink without a ripple, or turn to the Dark Side of the Force pretty quickly.

I can only think of maybe one or two out of dozens that hasn't gone that route.

Not good odds.

-Ann C. Crispin

Sepisllib · Feb 26, 2010

AC Crispin said:
99% of the publishing companies started up by frustrated former PublishAmerica authors wind up treating their authors poorly, if not outright scamming them out of their money.

Almost all of these companies fold after a year or so, unless they morph into outright scam publishers, charging authors to stay afloat.

I believe all the people who started these companies did so with good intentions at the outset.

But without any experience in publishing, they all either sink without a ripple, or turn to the Dark Side of the Force pretty quickly.

I can only think of maybe one or two out of dozens that hasn't gone that route.

Not good odds.

-Ann C. Crispin

That ---- Ann, is precisely why I am taking a year of work, research and planning toward that goal. Having three successful corporations under my belt, from startup, I know a little (sometimes very little) or what I am doing.

Each one of my companies are founded, and continue to operate, with Christian ethics as our guide - all my employees are groomed to be in step with our policy.

I will "not" start up without a good and solid goal. I will not allow any company of mine to victimize anyone, period.

Great imput though - Thank You

God Bless

Bill

kullervo · Feb 26, 2010

You know how much it cost my publisher to edit my book, copyedit my book, get a cover for my book, print my book in hardback, and have my book distributed? $25,000. How many books did they manage to publish before going bankrupt? Four. The other three were from known authors.

Don't start a business out of frustration. Don't risk folding your tent in frustration. Don't declare bankruptcy while you still have authors on book tour.

Why did my former publishers start their company? They wanted something fun they could do that would finance their retirement. I'm sure they noticed when I looked at them like they were nuts. They loved books. They loved reading. It was not enough.

Don't think you'll use the latest e-pub and print-on-demand and do it on the cheap. You'll get un-agented or badly agented submissions that you'll sell back to the writer and their families (sound familiar?) With no distribution, you'll spend your time calling book stores one-by-one (sound familiar?) and spend your margin at the post office.

I will flat out say do not start a publishing company until you have worked for a publishing company.

Sepisllib · Feb 26, 2010

kullervo said:
You know how much it cost my publisher to edit my book, copyedit my book, get a cover for my book, print my book in hardback, and have my book distributed? $25,000. How many books did they manage to publish before going bankrupt? Four. The other three were from known authors.

Don't start a business out of frustration. Don't risk folding your tent in frustration. Don't declare bankruptcy while you still have authors on book tour.

Why did my former publishers start their company? They wanted something fun they could do that would finance their retirement. I'm sure they noticed when I looked at them like they were nuts. They loved books. They loved reading. It was not enough.

Don't think you'll use the latest e-pub and print-on-demand and do it on the cheap. You'll get un-agented or badly agented submissions that you'll sell back to the writer and their families (sound familiar?) With no distribution, you'll spend your time calling book stores one-by-one (sound familiar?) and spend your margin at the post office.

I will flat out say do not start a publishing company until you have worked for a publishing company.

You have a rare insight, into the business.

That in itself is extremely valuable, and knowledge sells you well.

I am very aware that you do not know me, the real me, and I appreciate your words of insight, wisedom, and your intentions are well noted.

As I have indicated previously, I intend on exploring this business as just that, a "business" however I insist on a an expanded sense of christian morals and ethics application, which is extremely rare in business dealings today. I have found that when one takes the side of "christian ethics" in any and all business dealings, everyone walks away from the table with fullness. If I reach the conclusion that I cannot create this business, based upon such moral and ethical standards, I will walk away from it before it becomes an entity.

God Bless

Bill

Momento Mori · Feb 26, 2010

Publishing is a very specialised business and if you're serious about making it commercially viable, you need as an absolute minimum:

- experienced managers, editors and marketers (among others) who can find you books worth selling and then sell them;

- a significant amount of seed money - either equity or a bank loan (and good luck getting a bank loan in the current financial climate);

- distribution deals with Christian and other bookstores (that will involve agreeing discounts on books and returnability conditions);

- if you're doing print runs, warehouse capability for print runs. If you're going down POD, then you're going to find it difficult to give the discounts you need to get the books in stores.

There are dozens of other requirements but it's the ones I set out above that see most of these ventures crash and burn in the first 2 years, taking the hopes of its authors with them.

I know that you've got good intentions, but would seriously urge you not to do it.

MM

BenPanced · Feb 26, 2010

Momento Mori said:
Publishing is a very specialised business and if you're serious about making it commercially viable, you need as an absolute minimum:

- experienced managers, editors and marketers (among others) who can find you books worth selling and then sell them;

- a significant amount of seed money - either equity or a bank loan (and good luck getting a bank loan in the current financial climate);

- distribution deals with Christian and other bookstores (that will involve agreeing discounts on books and returnability conditions);

- if you're doing print runs, warehouse capability for print runs. If you're going down POD, then you're going to find it difficult to give the discounts you need to get the books in stores.

There are dozens of other requirements but it's the ones I set out above that see most of these ventures crash and burn in the first 2 years, taking the hopes of its authors with them.

I know that you've got good intentions, but would seriously urge you not to do it.

MM

^^^^^
This[sup]10[/sup].

A couple years back, I thought about starting a micropublisher to get a book of shorts Out There. I would incorporate, get the ISBN numbers, and go through Lulu. But the more I read through the pages here on AW, I realized it would fail miserably based on my abilities to get things done; I have the marketing skills of a mackerel. Sure, I could see the book getting out onto Lulu's marketplace, but what I needed to do to get it outside of that was, I thought, beyond what I thought I'd be able to accomplish, so I killed the project while it was still in the planning stages. It wouldn't have been worth the headaches.

waylander · Feb 26, 2010

Bill. Can I ask you a very hard question?
You seem like an upfront guy who wants to do the right thing.

Are your books good enough?
Really?
Have you had people who have wide experience in your genre read them and say "Wow, great!"?
Have you done absolutely everything to make them the best books possible?
If you haven't then you have to do this before you do anything else.

Sepisllib · Feb 26, 2010

waylander said:
Bill. Can I ask you a very hard question?
You seem like an upfront guy who wants to do the right thing.

Are your books good enough?
Really?
Have you had people who have wide experience in your genre read them and say "Wow, great!"?
Have you done absolutely everything to make them the best books possible?
If you haven't then you have to do this before you do anything else.

Tough - but honest and I like that.

Are my books good enough, truthfully I don't know.
The real reason I am exploring this is because of the possibility of a business opportunity - not just to publish and market "my" books.

I believe I am going about this is a different way - far more so than anything I have seen out there so far. Like I have said earlier - no one here knows me, and if you/they did this discussion would likely not be happening.

Back to "my" books - I don't know, been told by well over a hundred strangers that they loved the book, however they certainly are not critics, qualified to render judgement.

Great imput too - thank you

God Bless

Bill

Terie · Feb 27, 2010

Bill, I believe absolutely that your intentions are good. That said, as part of your research, I would ask you to read a few threads here about publishers who started up with the best intentions but crashed and burned because they had no publishing experience and insufficient capital. I know there are masses of them, but these are two I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe some others can point you to other relevant threads.

Living Waters Publishing Company

Cacoethes Publishing Company

For that matter, go to the Index page for the B&BC forum, scroll down to the publishers list, and click links of any of the ones listed in grey (which indicates they're closed).

The Cacoethes thread in particular shows exactly how a failing publisher hurts its authors.

Ethics and good intentions aren't nearly enough to successfully run a publishing company. Publishing industry experience (being a published author doesn't count) and sufficient startup capital are of the utmost importance. And if a company fails, it's its authors who get hurt the worst.

I know you're taking your research very seriously, and kudos to you for that. I think it will help in your decision-making process to kind of 'watch', if you will, a publisher fail, even if not in 'real time'. It will show you pitfalls that you must avoid if you want to succeed, and also will show you the real-live consequences of what happens when things to terribly wrong.

Best of luck.

Momento Mori · Feb 27, 2010

Sepisllib:
The real reason I am exploring this is because of the possibility of a business opportunity - not just to publish and market "my" books.

As an additional point (and with apologies for the fact that I'm going to sound like a complete arsehole here), any publishing enterprise that's been set up and which includes the owner's/staff members' own books among the titles is an automatic red flag for me and the reason is as follows: if you couldn't get a commercial publisher to take your own book, then how are you going to achieve commercial success with mine?

I'm not saying that to slag off people who go down the self-publishing route. Self-publishing works for some books that are of a particular niche market (e.g. poetry and local history or specialised knowledge). A very limited number of people end up self-publishing books that go on to be commercially picked up and achieve significant success (the caveat being that this is a v. limited number - most of whom will have spent a hell of a lot of money to self-publish before it's picked up).

There's also the fact that as you admit here, you are still in the process of submitting your work to agents. If you set up your company and I was someone thinking about submitting to you only to find out that you are represented by an agent and have a commercial publishing deal, then to my mind, it would raise doubts as to your commitment to your own publishing company and its authors.

Here in the UK there's a famous children's author called G. P. Taylor who has appeared in adverts for self-publishing companies and who advocates the benefits of self-publishing on the basis that his first books were all initially self-published and sold in schools. His success at doing this encouraged a commercial publisher to pick up the rights and it was only when this happened that he started to get the big sales figures. Every time I see him in one of those adverts espousing the benefits of self-publishing, I remember his large-advance book deal from Faber and Faber and think how hypocritical he is.

Sepisllib:
I believe I am going about this is a different way - far more so than anything I have seen out there so far. Like I have said earlier - no one here knows me, and if you/they did this discussion would likely not be happening.

You're right, we don't know you. It could very well be that you've got the finances and access to the right expertise that could help you turn a publishing venture into a success. At the same time though, you also got taken in by PA and I've seen so many people claim to have a "different way" of running their company and a "different way" of making a success and a business background that will make that happen, only to see those same people crash and burn within the first 2 years, that it is inevitable I - and many others - will feel skeptical.

If you are absolutely determined to go down this route, then at the very least could you confine yourself to your own books rather than inviting members of the public to submit. If you want to risk your own work, then that's fine, but you really need to have a demonstrably successful sales history before you risk other people's work and their dreams.

MM

JanDarby · Feb 27, 2010

Be sure to research why READERS would be interested in your site, and why READERS would choose to buy books from your site, instead of from any of the dozens (hundreds?) of other sites out there. I've seen reasons -- from you and other well-intentioned but under-researched booksellers/publishers -- for why the WRITERS would be interested in working with you, but not why READERS would be interested in buying from you.

So far, your entire focus seems to be on the writers, rather than the readers. Consider how backwards that is, compared to any other kind of business establishment. If you were selling widgets, the bulk of your pre-launch research would NOT be into the widget-makers (the writers) providing the product you're selling, but would be into the buyers (readers) and how to differentiate your widget-selling (book-selling) business from your competitors (other publishers).

I'm not asking for the answer personally, but make sure you know how your business is different from every other bookseller on the planet in ways that readers care enough about that they will be willing to find your business and buy from it. Take a look at all the various epublishers (and non-e publishers) out there and see how the successful ones have differentiated themselves from their competition. I think you'll find, ultimately, that there's a clearly defined, tangible (not just "ours are better") niche.

JD

Marian Perera · Feb 27, 2010

Terie said:
...I would ask you to read a few threads here about publishers who started up with the best intentions but crashed and burned because they had no publishing experience and insufficient capital. I know there are masses of them, but these are two I can think of off the top of my head.

Luna Brilliante would be another, and perhaps Capri. Started by people who had the best of intentions. Tico, Kunati, Mardi Gras... the list goes on.

JulieB · Feb 27, 2010

Bill, if I had a buck for every new publisher who said they were different, I wouldn't be scrambling for my kid's college tuition. I don't doubt your sincerity or enthusiasm, but please do as others have suggested and take the time to read about publishers who have failed and why. And then please read about those who have made a success and why. You'll see some clear trends.

You might want to read the thread about DarkStar Books. I point them out as someone who is new, but is doing it right. They're a small publisher, but are producing quality books that people want to read. Writers, in turn, are lining up for a chance to submit. They're being very selective, taking it slow. This is a good thing.

Find yourself someone who will mentor you and teach you about the publishing business. That will increase your chances of success.

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