Long sentences and lots of commas

Anaximander · Mar 7, 2010

I've recently got to the point where my WIP is far enough through that I feel comfortable with people reading the beginning, and one of the first critiques I had was that there are lots of commas. Now, I knew beforehand that I tend to get pretty wordy and string long sentences together out of lots of smaller clauses, but I didn't fully realise how much of an impact it had on my writing. The problem is that when I read it, I read it as I'd say it if I read it out loud, and a lot of the commas are there for grammar-correctness reasons and/or structure/clarity reasons and not much else. When I read it, most of the commas are effectively invisible to me, so I read it as having a nice flow, but when others read my writing they often pause at every single one, which breaks it up way more than I intend. Does anyone have any tips on restructuring my writing to flow better? My main problem is that a lot of the sentences can't really be broken up, partly because a lot of their parts can't stand alone, and partly because I build my sentences carefully so that (in my opinion) the juxtaposition of ideas and phrasing in the finished sentence makes it more than the sum of its parts. Any hints on improving the flow?

TheIT · Mar 7, 2010

Commas are my nemesis, too. I suggest looking up some grammar texts on commas and make certain you're using them correctly. The FAQ links at the top of the Grammar forum contain links to grammar sites.

Also consider the rhythm of the sentences. Too many sentences of similar construction in a row gets boring, and too many long sentences in a row can be difficult to comprehend. Try to change it up and intersperse short with long. Sometimes a short sentence after a bunch of long sentences can be an attention grabber.

Chase · Mar 7, 2010

I'm certainly not on the dumbed-down, short-sentences-sans-comma bandwagon.

Such brevity is wonderful in kiddie lit, to include youth/young adult. For adult novels, I enjoy sentences of varying length and complexity, punctuated in a variety of proper ways.

I believe your style of writing has a worthwhile audience. If a critique judges the specifics of your writing solely on sentence length and a paucity of commas, it may be time to say "thank you" and find a beta reader more appropriate for your target audience.

Jamesaritchie · Mar 7, 2010

Well, I'd say there is no such thing as a sentence that can't be broekn up. You can say whatever you want to say at pretty much any length. If the sentence can't be broken, you need a different sentence. There's always a short way of saying anything.

But I wouldn't worry too much about it, as long as every comma is there becaus ethe grammar calls for it. You're supposed to pause at every comma.

The main concern is flow. Good writing means a mixing long and short sentences. Too many long sentenecs gets boring, too many short ones come across as choppy. Both are killers.

blacbird · Mar 7, 2010

Anaximander said:
My main problem is that a lot of the sentences can't really be broken up, partly because a lot of their parts can't stand alone, and partly because I build my sentences carefully so that (in my opinion) the juxtaposition of ideas and phrasing in the finished sentence makes it more than the sum of its parts. Any hints on improving the flow?

My main problem is that a lot of the sentences can't really be broken up. A lot of their parts can't stand alone. I build my sentences carefully so that (in my opinion) the juxtaposition of ideas and phrasing in the finished sentence makes it more than the sum of its parts.

The instant you have any reader stopping at the end of a sentence and going back to reread the beginning to figure out what was actually said, is the instant your sentence has failed its purpose.

caw

Maryn · Mar 7, 2010

On the other hand, Neal Stephenson's genius novel "Cryptonomicon" has a great many sentences in the low hundreds of words, with as many commas as required, and they're freakin' brilliant. To break them into easily-digestible bits would have done a great disservice to the writing.

If your long sentences hang together well, supporting a single concept without confusion, then use your commas and don't listen to anybody but an editor in a position to buy the work or not.

Maryn, not a fan of dumbing down

backslashbaby · Mar 7, 2010

It's rough. I have the same problem.

But with non-fiction, I had my dad criticize my sentences in my essays, for instance. Dad is used to things written for the business world, and very good at that. I explained to him that Oxford likes long sentences with lots of commas and semicolons. I promise

And they do

It depends on your audience, for sure

kposa · Mar 7, 2010

You asked for hints so I'll try to give them. I broke up your post into shorter sentences, just so:

I've recently got to the point where my WIP is far enough through that I feel comfortable with people reading the beginning. One of the first critiques I had was that there are lots of commas. Now, I knew beforehand that I tend to get pretty wordy and string long sentences together out of lots of smaller clauses. But I didn't fully realise how much of an impact it had on my writing. The problem is that when I read it, I read it as I'd say it if I read it out loud. A lot of the commas are there for grammar-correctness reasons and/or structure/clarity reasons and not much else. When I read it, most of the commas are effectively invisible to me. So I read it as having a nice flow. But when others read my writing they often pause at every single one, which breaks it up way more than I intend. Does anyone have any tips on restructuring my writing to flow better? My main problem is that a lot of the sentences can't really be broken up. A lot of their parts can't stand alone. I build my sentences carefully so that (in my opinion) the juxtaposition of ideas and phrasing in the finished sentence makes it more than the sum of its parts. Any hints on improving the flow?

I hope this helps.

backslashbaby · Mar 7, 2010

^^^ I don't know that it does, imho. I think the thoughts need to be restated to make shorter sentences, if you need short sentences.

I don't know, OP. Just read a variety of things with shorter sentences, I think. There are good ways to do either choice.

Fallen · Mar 7, 2010

Try and grab a few Beta readers from here, hun. You can ask for someone that's used to your genre so that you know you're targetting the right audience.

Backslash made a very good point: if you pick a reader that isn't used to the genre you write they're already expecting things off you that aren't going to be there. As academic writing differs from fiction, Literary fiction will differ from genre fiction, and again you'll find that fantasy will differ from horror when it comes to clause length and punctuation.

But if you've run into a brick wall, just ask, hun. There are plenty here to help you out.

xtine · Mar 7, 2010

Sorry kposa. The original post read better, though your post was an interesting exercise.

I'd get a new beta.

But thank them for their time.

Anaximander · Mar 8, 2010

First off, thanks for all the comments, guys; it's great to see so many people willing to help.

I've started to restructure a few parts, but I've actually decided to ignore some of the comments I've had because the things that they're picking up on were done for specific reasons that aren't apparent yet because I haven't written the parts that explain it yet. I think what I'm going to do is find a few more people to read it through, and get a variety of opinions. Also, I reckon I need some more experienced people to read it, which means asking nicely around here.

RJK · Mar 10, 2010

My first question would be: what is your genre?
If you're trying to emulate Dickensian literature, then, by all means, continue with your long, convoluted sentences that allow your writing style to stand out from the story; letting the story itself slip to the background.

If you write suspense, you need shorter sentences. This isn't to say only use short sentences. You need to mix sentence length. When I write, I aim for a wide audience. I keep most of my sentences below eighteen words, with about two to three percent of them exceeding that limit. This targets my reading level at the fourth grade on the Flesche and Spache reading scales. This, I'm sad to say, is where most American readers are comfortable.

Anaximander · Mar 11, 2010

It's the WIP mentioned in my signature: a slightly-steampunk-ish fantasy. My Flesch-Kincaid score currently comes out at about 7th or 8th grade...

Jamesaritchie · Mar 11, 2010

Chase said:
I'm certainly not on the dumbed-down, short-sentences-sans-comma bandwagon.

Such brevity is wonderful in kiddie lit, to include youth/young adult. For adult novels, I enjoy sentences of varying length and complexity, punctuated in a variety of proper ways.

I'm not on the dumbed-down, short-sentences-sans-comma bandwagon, either.

I, too, enjoy a mixture of short and long sentences, but this doesn't mean I think short is in any way dumbed-down. Brevity is usually the hallmark of genius, and overly long is most often an attempt to look like a genius when you aren't.

backslashbaby · Mar 11, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
I'm not on the dumbed-down, short-sentences-sans-comma bandwagon, either.

I, too, enjoy a mixture of short and long sentences, but this doesn't mean I think short is in any way dumbed-down. Brevity is usually the hallmark of genius, and overly long is most often an attempt to look like a genius when you aren't.

Like Isabel Allende, the little poser

I don't think long or short is the mark of genius. Imho, they are just two different styles that fit the work or not. They can both be genius. Folks often criticize the long style, yet it fits certain things well, I think.

Anaximander · Mar 12, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
... overly long is most often an attempt to look like a genius when you aren't.

You see, this right here is why I'm trying to cut down on the huge sentences. When I write, I tend to instinctively write long, flowing sentences, carefully constructed to give the reader the exact image I have in my mind, because I want them to see the awesome story I see, as accurately as I can show it to them. The problem is, when I read it back, it sometimes sounds like I'm just writing long in order to sound smarter, because my shorter sentences occasionally lack punch - and impact is generally the main reason for mixing in shorter sentences. I'm currently going over my WIP to re-work it a little, going from two angles: trimming down any sentences that really are too long, and improving the shorter sentences so that they're stronger. I figure if the short sentences sound just as good as the longer ones, then maybe it won't sound so much like I'm avoiding them because I'm not very good at them, and more like it's just a preference thing.

Rambutanious · Mar 13, 2010

At some points, you should be able to use a semi-colon to link two related sentences together. This won't ultimately solve every grammar/comma problem you're faced with, but it could give you some room to breath.

Arkie · Mar 13, 2010

I think short sentences are the impact sentences. The long Faulkneran sentences tend to lose steam about the second comma. I generally get to the end and have to go back and reread to see what the author said. Also, I've noticed that authors have a tendency to tie clauses together with a comma when it should be a semi-colon. Often in long sentences you see a comma inserted at the wrong place splitting a complete thought. The other thing that happens with long sentences is the insertion of prepositional phrases. Any time a prepositional phrase is inserted in a sentence, the sentence loses thrust. Any sentence that exceeds 23 words likely should be made into two.

Lance_in_Shanghai · Mar 20, 2010

I failed to see any example. Where is this comma mess?

You may have problems in your writing, but you don't want to admit it. For example:
"The problem is that when I read it, I read it as I'd say it if I read it out loud, and a lot of the commas are there for grammar-correctness reasons and/or structure/clarity reasons and not much else." This could much better be written as "I read it as I'd say it out loud, with many commas for correct grammar, structure, or clarity." Your writing in this forum is wordy. If your other writing has the same problem, open your mind to criticism.

Long sentences and lots of commas

Anaximander

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

Jamesaritchie

blacbird

Maryn

I Tried

backslashbaby

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kposa

backslashbaby

*

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

xtine

A hundred words at a time

Anaximander

RJK

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

Anaximander

Jamesaritchie

backslashbaby

*

Anaximander

Rambutanious

Arkie

a reader's ear and a writer's heart

Lance_in_Shanghai

Long sentences and lots of commas

Infuriatingly Theoretical

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

I Tried

~~~~*~~~~

~~~~*~~~~

Stood at the coalface

A hundred words at a time

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

~~~~*~~~~

a reader's ear and a writer's heart

*

*

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