writing a realistic and interesting relationship

lol absolutely. I love that he's a total stalker and yet somehow, we kind of like him anyway! And eyeroll I could just murder her - oh, this is terrible, richness and eternal beauty and wonderful clothes, oh woe is me. They both need to have a spoonful of cement, and harden up.

And yet. I have read every book, seen every movie the day it came out or within 2 or so days of release...

we indeed have much to learn from the crazytown bizareness that is Meyer's work.

eileenmcilwain said:

I can't bear to see Edward suffer either!

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Really? I would fucking love that.

This is another thing I was thinking about. I was so into that character, and I cannot, for the life of me, understand why. But he's one of those characters who I would like to see in any situation. Edward joins the circus. Edward is a lawyer. Edward fights mutant cats. I have NO idea what to make of this.

eileenmcilwain said:

argument is who loves who more.

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I effing hate those parts. So embarrassing.

Stunted said:

Edward joins the circus. Edward is a lawyer. Edward fights mutant cats.

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I didn't like there only being external conflict in Twilight. If the main focus is a romance, then they'd better have an issue or two or else focusing on the romance makes it boring.

Also, I resent the idea that to make a romance "realistic" it must be unloving/stereotypical. Good relationships exist in real life, but perfect ones don't.

My own novel has two characters who genuinely care about each other, are in a relationship, and want to help each other. The conflict comes from how much this bond is worth to them, and the external conflict seriously affects their relationship.

I think a lot of books described in this thread have flat relationships because the male characters don't have any flaws. They're too perfect, i.e. unrealistic. I personally really liked Jacob Black as a character because he wasn't afraid to be a jerk, even if it made him unlikable at times.

I dunno. To each their own, but as a reader, I like having conflicting feelings about a love interest. I want to hate them a little sometimes.

If you're talking about trangles where one of the guys s a sweetie to root for I'd suggest The Hunger Games. Two good guys for the MC to choose from and the author did a really good job of making her final choice about who she'll end up with unpredictable.

Welllll I have not read Twilight, nor do I plan on it, but I will say that to me, fictional relationships are 1000% more interesting when there is some form of internal conflict [as in, conflict between the two characters resulting from their own personal flaws/idiosyncrasies]

As in, the two people in question have different religious beliefs, they will separated for a period of time, one or both are tempted to "give up" on making things work, or they must learn how to unconditionally love the person, beyond mere attraction.

These are the things that make relationships interesting, probably because everyone can relate to those fierce, internal struggles you experience when you truly care for someone. I know people read romance for an escape, but imo the escape is the happy ending...it better have some struggles along the way because otherwise I just find it too sugary to take in. This kind of conflict can be thrown in to just about any story to spice it up.

Additionally: love moves slowly! Attraction does not. Attraction can happen in the blink of an eye. The "honeymoon" phase of a relationship can happen soon after two people meet and are attracted. But sooner or later, enduring love will take work for the characters to maintain.

Also re: why bad boys, love/hate is so popular...it's fairly easy to build sexual tension with those types of personalities. Fiery and passionate moments also sell well--it's far harder writing about a typical bumbling "nice guy" who also has a lusty side/sex appeal.

In my current WIP my two sets of romances between my lead girls are riddled with internal and external problems for them. For Aaron and Veronica they're faced with keeping their relationship a secret because Aaron is Veronica's father's graduate student. With Michael and Zady Quinn they're torn apart by socio-economic differences (think Pretty in Pink). I find that when dealing with the situations my characters find themselves in prove that relationships are hard! Because real life relationships are hard it makes writing fictional ones even harder.

Moost said:

I think a lot of books described in this thread have flat relationships because the male characters don't have any flaws. They're too perfect, i.e. unrealistic. I personally really liked Jacob Black as a character because he wasn't afraid to be a jerk, even if it made him unlikable at times.

I dunno. To each their own, but as a reader, I like having conflicting feelings about a love interest. I want to hate them a little sometimes.

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Actually, I would have said that the problem with Edward is that he's a gigantic asshole, yet the story treats him as if he isn't. Bella keeps telling us that he's perfection incarnate even when he does things that border on the abusive, which ruins the relationship for anyone who can't get over the disconnect.

Now, it would be one thing if Bella told us he's perfect and we weren't supposed to believe her, but that's obviously not the case. (Or if it is it means Stephanie Meyer is a genius who's been playing us all for fools.) Bottom line, make sure the way your love interest(s) are presented is consistent with how they're described.

Sean Wills said:

Actually, I would have said that the problem with Edward is that he's a gigantic asshole, yet the story treats him as if he isn't.

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No, yeah, I agree with you. For me, this is the big source of the ick in Twilight. I'm not sure it would be popular otherwise, though.

Stunted said:

No, yeah, I agree with you. For me, this is the big source of the ick in Twilight. I'm not sure it would be popular otherwise, though.

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I've never understood that. What odd vein of reader psychology is he tapping into?

(Some enterprising English grad student needs to write an excessively in-depth essay on the subject immediately!)

If you want to know how Twilight works, The Oatmeal has it summed up pretty neatly. It's also hilarious haha!

http://theoatmeal.com/story/twilight

Twilight aside, I think that you can make any sort of relationship work as long as there is conflict somewhere in the story. Even in fairytales, the prince still has to kill a monster or two before he can ride off into the sunset with his lady love. You can't have a happily ever after at the beginning of the book.

I think Green has the truth of it. Every relationship has a bump in the road. I know in my current relationship, my partner and I have been through a lot of trialling times. What makes our relationship so strong is how we work through the conflict together, and support eachother. We must be doing something right, cos it's our 9 year anniversary at the end of next month! I never thought the shy, rebel I dated in my last year of high school would turn out to be my perfect partner, but now I can't imagine anyone better suited to me. We're complete opposites, but like two opposing sides of a jigsaw puzzle, we seem to be a perfect "fit."

Yes, I think I agree with you, eileen - it's how both parties deal with the conflict that makes for a strong relationship. I love seeing that within romance books. When you expect the main characters to respond in a certain way, in a way that could hurt the other, but they don't - they find some way to support the one they love - the conflict actually makes them stronger.

I think it's because it's difficult to find this quality in real life. It's never about what actually happens - it's about how both of you choose to deal with it.

That's something to think about in writing realistic relationships IMO. And, also, as I think Green said, they need to be flawed, and those flaws can either be something the other MC likes, or something that really really irritates them, but you get to see them deal with that, and surmount it.

Oh, and the number one ingredient for a successful relationship is COMPROMISE.

I have a saying about that... "Compromise - where nobody gets exactly what they want!"

Twilight example:
Edward "I don't want to turn you into a vampire, but if I must then I want you to marry me first."
Bella "I don't want to get married, but I do want to be vampire. Hmm, how about... I'll marry you if you agree to try and have sex with me while I'm still human?"
Edward "No! I could accidentally kill you doing that!"
Bella "Just promise you'll try! I mean, what could possibly go wrong?"
Edward "Well... I can't argue with that logic. Okay, it's a deal."

LMAO!!!!!

do not start me on that scene, and the not so subtle attempt to shove 'no sex before marriage' ideals on their target audience. Either it's too dangerous to have sex, therefore, they shouldn't - until Bella is a vampire, OR, he's too old fashioned, and he wants to wait for marriage - in which case, don't pull the 'it's too dangerous' card, unless it really IS too dangerous. Compromise is great, but not at the expense of someone's health and well being. He never should have agreed to that. (I know, fictional character, sigh.)

I don't advocate abstinence only sex education, and the fact that she got pregnant in an extremely risky way is no less risky simply because they were married. IMO.

Oh good gracious, I promised myself I wouldn't start this little rant, lol!

Aww MissMacchiato you just couldn't help yourself, could you?

Well, at least Edward didn't go "You know what, I'm not ready to be a daddy." before prancing off into the forest and leaving Bella to deal with the aftermath! I think marriage before sex is a sweet, romantic idea. I thought it was downright adorable, in fact.

My characters are going to have a Celtic hand-fasting ceremony as a sign of their commitment to eachother before they do the deed. I want to promote the idea that you should only have sex when you're committed to eachother... plus Celtic hand-fasting ceremonies are really cool! Lol!

I totally couldn't resist, lol!

I've threadjacked a whole heap, [SORRY OP!] so I'll just say I do see your point, and I think the handfasting idea is adorable, although I know that in certain areas, it was considered an easy way for a man to get a woman into bed without having to marry her, since at the end of the year and a day period, he could cut ties with her if he chose, just as she could do the same, without marriage taking place.

I think you can have sex before marriage in a romantic and sweet way, and in terms of realism, I think it's extremely important to use romance in YA fiction to lay out the choices young people have, and the kind of things they might face - RATHER than skirt the whole issue with the whole,

"and they waited til they got married, and then went at it like rabbits. The end."

(lol)

There's a lot more scope for emotional conflict when the characters are dealing with sex, and I think a lot of young people appreciate that realism.

I'd prefer my (hypothetical) teen to be supplied with all the info, aware of all their options, and make that decision to wait or not, as they choose - safely. Waiting is great, but if it's still unsafe, and the teen is uneducated, they're still at risk. YA is a platform that we can use to educate, as well as show sweetness and traditional values. I don't think it has to be one or the other

That's also very true.

In Maggie Stiefvater's SHIVER the characters have what feels like a realistic sexual experience.

And in EVERNIGHT the MC is forever going on about condoms, and the author makes a point of the two characters going to the shop together to buy said condoms before they have sex. Another realistic sexual experience.

I guess I always tend towards the romantic - two people fall in love, commit to eachother, and have magical amazing sex together. But now I realise that romance/love is worth so much more if you torment your characters a bit first!

In CRESCENT I started out with two characters on a fairly even keel - neither had been in a serious relationship, and neither had had sex. But now I'm shifting the balance by making my male character more experienced. He's more of a bad boy in my latest version. He's had his share of girls over the years, but has grown tired of meaningless sexual encounters. Nothing really fires his passion anymore, he doesn't connect with any of the girls emotionally. Well, except for one - Elisabeth Mason - who he accidentally killed during what would have been his first sexual encounter. That may well have been what made him so emotionally distant. Then he meets my MFC and she pushes all his buttons... in the wrong way. He can't stand her at first! Then he starts to realise that he actually has feelings for her *shock horror* and doesn't know quite how to deal with it.

Ahh! There's so much more that happens to shake him up, but it would give everything away. I torment him sooooo much in this new version of my MS! Poor bloke! But the contrast is that while he's experienced physically, his emotional experiences have been limited. And my female character is a big ball of emotions, but she has never been physically intimate with anyone. When they get together it's a new experience for both of them, but in different ways.

I'd prefer my (hypothetical) teen to be supplied with all the info, aware of all their options, and make that decision to wait or not, as they choose - safely. Waiting is great, but if it's still unsafe, and the teen is uneducated, they're still at risk.

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Seconded

Also, Eileen, your book sounds fairly awesome...

Thanks starryeyedkt. I'm glad you like the sound of the newer version! I also think it's fairly awesome, but I'm terribly biased!!!

Sean Wills said:

Actually, I would have said that the problem with Edward is that he's a gigantic asshole, yet the story treats him as if he isn't. Bella keeps telling us that he's perfection incarnate even when he does things that border on the abusive, which ruins the relationship for anyone who can't get over the disconnect.

Now, it would be one thing if Bella told us he's perfect and we weren't supposed to believe her, but that's obviously not the case. (Or if it is it means Stephanie Meyer is a genius who's been playing us all for fools.) Bottom line, make sure the way your love interest(s) are presented is consistent with how they're described.

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I totally agree that Edward is a huge a-hole. He's a stalker, he's patronizing, and he's overprotective. But, too many girls think he is an example of an ideal mate. I personally think Edward is S.M.'s idea of perfection, too.

Stunted said:

Lol, me too. I've always had this feeling that because Twilight is such a bizarre anomaly, if you could figure out what makes it tick, you would have learned some amazing trick to story-telling.

.

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Believe me, I've sat around many an hour trying to figure this out. (While downing motrin from the migraine I got reading all the books within a weekend- and while complaining about how poorly written they are. HAha- like I would do much better. lol)

In the end, I think it's just the charm in the relationships. It reminded me of what it felt like to fall in love with my husband. To be so sure of that one thing, despite the rest of the world. To be so young and so sure (I was 16 when we met....). At least that's what it was for me- that charm overwhelmed everything else about the book. Heck, it could have been rabid robots and I would have still read it as long as that charm was there.

I had another point about the actual OP, but I forget it now...blech.

Hey, how would you feel about a character who has never felt infatuation or love before and thinks that she's in love when she isn't really? This definitely happens in real life, but do you think it would be annoying in a novel? (She does eventually fall in love with him for real, but she never explicitly states that this is different.)

I kinda wish Bella ended up with Jacob ...