Advice - WIP

Cait · Aug 16, 2010

I need some advice, I am not going to put the entire thing, but just a bit of it. Please be gentle and kind, but please state if its okay, not bad needs work, and what I might do to make it better. (o.o) I know there is never going to be a time it will be perfect, so not looking for that. But I'm always struggling with keeping things interesting, and show, not tell.

Which I think is horrible vague advice, by the way, but that goes without saying. Anyway, the text.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] The town crier was shouting through the streets that Prince Aldin, son of Wulfgar had won the competition for the title of Centurian; the nations highest honor. There were a great deal of celebrations happening from the palace to the border cities which often depended on the strength to keep out the local raiders from the south. It was a day that many would remember or so her father told her, Alora wasn't sure what to believe. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Alora glanced out of the carriage to the imperial palace. She leaned against the window, “Dad, I don't see why a woman can't be a general...” Alora stepped down from the carriage, into the halls of the imperial palace, her father only a few steps away from her. “Dad, I know you think I should get married and I do want to; but I'm not ready to settle down.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] “I don't want to discuss this here, Alora!” King Wulfgar stood from his throne and her father bowed slightly, “Your highness, I see all is well. You must be proud of Aldin, as your youngest, he has a lot of shoes to fill!” Her father took her hand, “Daughter why don't you go see Aldin, I'm sure he could use a cheerful voice about now. The easy part is finished.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Her father went off with the King, who only turned his head with a slight frown on his face: Whatever it meant, what did they mean the easy part was finished? Aldin would soon face a lot of wars, with a lot of victories and become the hero of Taistowe; something that Alora wanted to be more than anything. “Excuse me, but where is Al...I mean, Prince Aldin.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] The maid looked around nervously, pointing to the northern part of the room, “I wouldn't go, I heard the Prince is kind of distant.” She returned to her cleaning duties as the Lords and Ladies danced. In the corner was Kenric who was sitting with a red haired girl on his left and a blond haired girl on his right, both the daughters of some minor lord or another and most likely the third daughters at that. [/FONT]

Kateness · Aug 16, 2010

I think this should probably be moved to the SYW section, quite probably the fantasy SYW (though possibly the historical, I'm not sure)

dpaterso · Aug 17, 2010

No worries with short samples appearing in Basic Writing Questions for quickie opinions, but as Kateness suggests, posting in one of the Share Your Work genre forums (password = vista) might get you wider feedback. Sub-forums include Science Fiction/Fantasy SYW, Young Adult SYW and Historical Writing SYW (as you'll see for yourself).

I found your sample lacking character description and location visuals, and the character interaction felt a little flat and incomplete, e.g. Alora doesn't even acknowledge the King or get acknowledged in return. The opening paragraph had a "tell" vibe about it. I think I'd kick off with Alora in the carriage and work the town crier's announcement in there after she's introduced. Shrug, just my opinion.

-Derek

KyraDune · Aug 17, 2010

dpaterso said:
I found your sample lacking character description and location visuals, and the character interaction felt a little flat and incomplete, e.g. Alora doesn't even acknowledge the King or get acknowledged in return. The opening paragraph had a "tell" vibe about it. I think I'd kick off with Alora in the carriage and work the town crier's announcement in there after she's introduced. Shrug, just my opinion.

I agree. Also, everything felt a little quick to me and there was some confusion about who was talking when. I knew who was talking, but it took a second and I always find that disruptive to the story's flow.

I think I would describe what was happening in the room earlier, if there's some kind of ball going on it could change the whole feeling of Alora's conversation with her father and give us a bit of insight into her character. Is she stomping after her father, talking loudly with no care for who hears, or is she quietly fuming while she whispers the words through clenched teeth?

Hope I helped.

Julie Worth · Aug 17, 2010

Cait said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The town crier was shouting through the streets that Prince Aldin, son of Wulfgar had won the competition for the title of Centurian; the nations highest honor. [/FONT]

Two punctuation errors in the first sentence makes a bad first impression.

Devil Ledbetter · Aug 17, 2010

Cait said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Alora glanced out of the carriage to the imperial palace. She leaned against the window, “Dad, I don't see why a woman can't be a general...” Alora stepped down from the carriage, into the halls of the imperial palace, her father only a few steps away from her. “Dad, I know you think I should get married and I do want to; but I'm not ready to settle down.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] “I don't want to discuss this here, Alora!” King Wulfgar stood from his throne and her father bowed slightly, “Your highness, I see all is well. You must be proud of Aldin, as your youngest, he has a lot of shoes to fill!” [/FONT]

Dialogue falls flat when characters tell each other things that both of them already know (in order to inform the reader). It sounds forced, because it isn't what these characters would say to each other (unless they really are the type of boors who go around stating the obvious all the time).

"Dad" knows women can't be generals, so Alora doesn't need to say this to him. Dad also knows he thinks she should get married - she's announcing what he thinks only for the reader's benefit. His highness already knows all is well, and he knows he is proud of his son; Alora's dad doesn't need to tell him this.

When character A tells character B something character B already knows, there is nothing for character B to react to. It flattens the whole scene.

Cait said:
Which I think is horrible vague advice, by the way, but that goes without saying. Anyway, the text.

"Show, don't tell" is good advice but when misapplied it can cause trouble. Telling has a place. Any information that would be tedious to show should be told. Characters announcing things that the other characters already know is tedious -- even if the reader doesn't already have the information.

Also, "big shoes to fill' is a cliche, and "a lot of shoes to fill" doesn't make sense unless Prince Aldin is replacing several people at once, or a centipede.

Don't give up. Keep reading and keep writing. It takes practice.

Welcome to AW.

Cait · Aug 17, 2010

Thanks for all your comments. I will take them into consideration. I've edited, but not going to put it down here until I work on it more. But Devil, your comments are based on a little portion of the work and at this time, you do not know what is for your benefit and what's not. However, I do think that I should have made it clear that this is a fight that they've been having for some time. So that has been changed just today, because of this.

I was hoping for more direction and advice than I got. What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? (I think I got the wrong part, but most of the time these kind of threads always get that advice). My biggest problem is that it is from HER point of view and no one thinks "I am a blond hair, blue eyed beauty with legs that just won't stop." And no one stops to notice the hair color of the person they're talking to. Actions, sounds and what's happening around her, that's easy. But character descriptions, in a drama? Just how do you work those in?

Devil Ledbetter · Aug 17, 2010

Cait said:
But Devil, your comments are based on a little portion of the work and at this time, you do not know what is for your benefit and what's not.

I wasn't the only person in this thread who thought your character interaction was flat. I explained what made it fall flat.

You say I do not know what is for my benefit and what's not. Do you mean King Wolfgar does not already know that all is well, does not already know his son Prince Aldin won the title of Centurian, does not already know that Aldin is his youngest and does not already know his son has "a lot of" shoes to fill? Apparently King Wolfgar is so whacked out on black tar heroin that he needs Alora's dad to stop by and fill him in on everything that's going on in the kingdom, including the birth order of his own children.

His heroin stupor also explains why King Wolfgar has no reaction whatsoever to all of this huge news that Alora's dad shares only for the benefit of King Wolfgar. And here I mistook it for reader feeder. Beg pardon.

Cait said:
I was hoping for more direction and advice than I got. What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? (I think I got the wrong part, but most of the time these kind of threads always get that advice).

So, help you received but the thread was thin on warm fuzzies. Check under your desk for those.

Cait said:
My biggest problem is that it is from HER point of view and no one thinks "I am a blond hair, blue eyed beauty with legs that just won't stop." And no one stops to notice the hair color of the person they're talking to. Actions, sounds and what's happening around her, that's easy. But character descriptions, in a drama? Just how do you work those in?

Open the novel by having her standing in front of a full-length mirror thinking about every detail of how she looks, and include the name of a soap opera actress she resembles. That would fit perfectly with what you have here.

backslashbaby · Aug 17, 2010

It's not very long, so I can't say that anything struck me as right enough to highlight. I agree that the "As You Know, Bob" problem seems to be pretty big.

It's not uncommon, so it has its own name

POV issues are often hard, I think. I'd just read the threads we have on them until a lightbulb goes off

I don't do much character description, but when I do, I think of something that won't seem contrived, exactly like what you are trying to avoid. My MC is a redhead with pale skin, and so I conjured up an especially sunny day for her to think about that, as we do!

Cait · Aug 17, 2010

I've suddenly thought that perhaps it isn't the the writing itself that is so bad, though it does need editing, and I am doing just that. But my answer lays in when I chose to start, instead of at the beginning of the end... I should start with the very end, and go back to where it the end all began? It would have the tension there, make you want to see how it all got up to that point.

Has that been done many times? Is it cliche? I mean, I don't want something that's been overdone, but it would help with the beginning. Just let me know what you all think? I hope that's not too confusing, but it just came to me. I wasn't exactly satisfied with where I chose to begin the book (way before I posted here, fyi) and I've been debating it. Tension, it would definitely add tension.

Steam&Ink · Aug 17, 2010

Cait said:
I've suddenly thought that perhaps it isn't the the writing itself that is so bad, though it does need editing, and I am doing just that. But my answer lays in when I chose to start, instead of at the beginning of the end... I should start with the very end, and go back to where it the end all began? It would have the tension there, make you want to see how it all got up to that point.

Hi Cait. You have received some very good, and honest advice from posters here. Some of it may be hard to accept.
I understand you want to hear comments like "this is great - I would totally buy this book". As writers, we all want to hear this everyday, believe me! It never goes away.
But the fact is, there are obvious issues with the writing in the piece you've posted, and many of them have been pointed out above.
Maybe you're right about starting in a different place in the story. But that doesn't change that this piece exhibits many beginner's errors, which you will need to work on if you want to improve your writing.

Theo81 · Aug 18, 2010

Cait,

First, welcome to the boards.

But Devil, your comments are based on a little portion of the work and at this time, you do not know what is for your benefit and what's not.

It's never a good idea to have dialogue explaining things for the benefit of the reader. Unless you are a writer of exceptional skill, it will be hideously clunky and detract from the good bits.
It's also worth bearing in mind that an agent will be looking for reasons NOT to read any further. If you have made (what is considered to be) an elementary mistake in the first two paragraphs, they are not going to get any further. Their slush-piles are BIG and nobody here wants to see you shoot yourself in the foot before you get going.

Happily, the delete key exists and you can get rid of those dodgy parts and replace them with somthing better.

Don't worry about introducing and describing things too much to begin with. In the meat world, we don't always begin by introducing ourselves to people; we just fall into conversation. We may then go on to tell them our name or ask them theirs. We might ask a leading question based on what we can see: they are wearing a suit so "what area of business are you in?" might be asked.

It sounds like you are basically trying to convery a few pieces of information a) the prince has won a tornament b) Alora wants to be a General c) Her father won't let her because he's a mysogenistic cretin who has never heard of womens' rights (okay, maybe that's not quite what you are trying to convey).

Describe what's going on as it pertains to the plot. Rather than opening with the line about the town crier, could you expand the journey to the palace and what Alora sees and hears. It's a celebration so, had the King given free beer to all? Have people lost bets because they thought Aldrin was a puny weakling compared to his brothers and didn't think he'd win? Alora's father is somebody important so, does he scatter the drunks in the road? Does he tell Alora to stop earwigging on the inapropriate conversations of the commoners and act like a lady?
Set the scene, but don't bog it down with details which aren't relevent. Put physical descriptions where they naturally go. Maybe she dresses up for a ball and it can go in there. Maybe a potential suitor writes her a poem praising her physical attributes. There are lots of ways to do it.

Bufty · Aug 18, 2010

Cait. Don't forget to read the newbie guide, and if you want to know what all the buttons mean check out this thread.

And there are stickies at the top of every Forum's thread list.

I'm suggesting you take time to read through these before leaping in with more submissions.

Enthusiasm is admirable but you are not the first to make all these beginner mistakes and there's an enormous amount of accumulated information in this site. You can learn a lot from these stickie threads and from browsing the questions others have posed and the relative responses.

Cait · Aug 18, 2010

I understand you want to hear comments like "this is great - I would totally buy this book".

(o.o) Actually, that's not want I want to hear, but I am really honestly begin to believe the statement that opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.

Thank you, but since everyone ignored my last thought. I thought it was a really good idea, so I'm going to go with that. No one else needs to respond, this has been resolved, and I will be starting a new topic when I edit my work just a bit more. Maybe in a few months or so.

Devil Ledbetter · Aug 18, 2010

Cait said:
(o.o) Actually, that's not want I want to hear, but I am really honestly begin to believe the statement that opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.

Including you.

Cait said:
Thank you, but since everyone ignored my last thought. I thought it was a really good idea, so I'm going to go with that.

By all means start in a different spot. But work on improving your writing, too.

Cait said:
No one else needs to respond, this has been resolved, and I will be starting a new topic when I edit my work just a bit more. Maybe in a few months or so.

We will respond if we feel like it. Feel free to put me on ignore though, if you have a problem with this.

Toothpaste · Aug 18, 2010

I think what happened Cait was that after you got a lot writing advice here (solicited advice I might add) you then returned saying that actually you didn't think there was anything wrong with your writing just where you started your book.

Now. That may be an important revelation, that you started your book at the wrong place and you've now figured out your new beginning, and we can answer the question if we think the idea is a good one (personally I am getting tired of reading books/seeing movies/television shows that start at the end and then show you how we got to that point, it's becoming a very worn device. However one can do anything one wants in one's work, so long as one does it well, so I say give it a shot!). But you see when you dismiss the idea that maybe you have some work to do in the same thought as your new beginning idea, people are going to say something. You may have thought of a new beginning, but you still have some problems in your writing that won't simply go away by starting somewhere new.

The point is, do what you will, but maybe keep the advice given to you in the back of your head. And don't get all pissy about the advice either, saying the old opinions are like ***holes etc. You asked for opinions. They weren't given unsolicited. You can't get mad when you are given what you ask for, even if they aren't as positive as you would have hoped.

backslashbaby · Aug 18, 2010

I don't have an opinion on where you should begin your story, because I don't know enough about it. What we saw was pretty short.

It might be a very, very intriguing story. I just wouldn't know yet, which is fine. Beginnings kick my butt choosing the perfect way to do it. It takes me forever to come up with one I really like.

I would suggest letting the reader know that the story won't be a cliche. My own WIP builds on common cliches, uses them. Just let everyone know you've done it on purpose. The twisting or 'what's different' has to be seen early, imho.

These things are so detailed that you have to study the craft in detail, and questions can be hard to answer because of all of the factors involved.

Still, you've got a few topics suggested for research, based on reviews of what you seem to need. Pretty cool, eh? Knowing what you can focus on helps a ton, I think.

Theo81 · Aug 18, 2010

everyone ignored my last thought

I ignored your last thought because I don't know enough about your novel to know if it would be a good idea, but mainly because I felt there were larger problems with your writing as it stood and they needed addressing.
It doesn't matter where you begin the story, from this sample there are basic writing issues I feel you still have to iron out.

Advice - WIP

Cait

Kateness

dpaterso

Patent pending

KyraDune

Finding Beauty In Negative Spaces

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?

Devil Ledbetter

Come on you stranger, you legend,

Cait

Devil Ledbetter

Come on you stranger, you legend,

backslashbaby

*

Cait

Steam&Ink

sekrit superhero

Theo81

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Cait

Devil Ledbetter

Come on you stranger, you legend,

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

backslashbaby

*

Theo81

Advice - WIP

Patent pending

Finding Beauty In Negative Spaces

What? I have a title?

Come on you stranger, you legend,

Come on you stranger, you legend,

~~~~*~~~~

sekrit superhero

Where have the last ten years gone?

Come on you stranger, you legend,

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

~~~~*~~~~

*

*