How do you know how much to write, about each scene/chapter, to finish up with a novel-length story?

[The Backward OX]

Let’s assume you have a target word count for the finished story of between 80k and 100k. How do you control the word count for each individual part of the story so that the entire package comes out the right size?

[TheIT]

Write the story. Use as many words as it needs. Adjust word count in revision. Once you have the whole story, you can figure out what to emphasize and what to cut.

[mccardey]

Write the story. Use as many words as it needs. Adjust word count in revision. Once you have the whole story, you can figure out what to emphasize and what to cut.

What she said. Mostly, just write the story. Other people do it differently, though...

[gothicangel]

Read as many novels as possible.

[leahzero]

Like the wise folks above said: just write it.

As you write, you'll probably start to get a feel for the length of your scenes, how long it takes to set up and resolve conflicts, and ultimately you'll be able to group scenes into acts. So if it takes 25,000 words to set up the first act, and 25,000 for the second, the third and final act should be about the same length.

Of course you don't have to rigidly divide your MS into acts, but whatever structure works for you.

Don't be afraid to go over your target word count--for most of us, it's far easier to cut than to add words.

[Maxinquaye]

I usually sit down, make an outline, bring out 50 index cards (electronic ones) and say: each index card represents a scene; each scene will be approximately 2000 words. Then I shuffle, write, rethink, and on average it turns out about right - except I do have to adjust the pacing here and there, shortening some scenes and lengthening others.

[dpaterso]

As a very rough guide for first pass plotting, you could figure aiming for 5,000 words per chapter x 20 chapters.

Try writing an outline (full, short, bullet points, or whatever suits you) and see if you can break your story down this way.

And/or try looking at the outline from a higher altitude, and highlight the classic beginning, middle and end -- or perhaps a beginning, middle1, middle2, end variant to avoid the midway sag -- which might help you feel the story beats with a view to adjusting wordcount for each section of the novel.

-Derek

[Linda Adams]

I try not to control the individual word count of my sections. That's tended to be very bad for me. I historically run too short, and individual goals like that puts a magnifying glass on the overall word count. Instead of paying attention to the writing, I end up focusing on the word count and how I'm not making the goal--and each one I miss contrinues to remind me I'm running too short. So I'm trying very hard to ignore word count entirely!

Because I don't outline, I just keep in my head the next couple of sections (which, in my case, are different than scenes) and work on those at the same time. Another couple are on the deck, ready to launch. I'm also thinking of what the next major turning point is, though I haven't made up my mind what it is.

[KTC]

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

How do you know how much to write, about each scene/chapter, to finish up with a novel-length story?

I don't. I just write the friggin' story. The chapter lengths take care of themselves. For me, there's always a natural cut-off. I never think about things like this. NEVER.

[NeuroFizz]

As many of you may know, I'm a fan of shitcanning the word count until it's absolutely necessary to consider it. That means I'm just going to echo what others have said. Dedicate yourself to the story without having any nagging word count expectations limiting your creativity. The story is going to have to go through significant edits between first and second draft anyway, so that may be the time to worry about word count. Even if you find you are through 70% of your story and you are only at 30,000 words, maybe this story doesn't have 100,000 words in it. The most important thing, if you are being stalled or worried about word count issues, is to tell the story--get to the end of the first draft. Then it's adjustment time.

[MumblingSage]

Outlining helps.

Reading a lot of novels can let you 'internalize' about how long a scene, chapter, story, etc should be. You won't know intellectually, but you'll feel what about of detail should be added, pacing, etc. *Knock on wood*

I write in notebooks, rather than onscreen, and I have a pretty good idea how many words I can fit into each notebook--90,000-120,000, or about the length a novel in my genre should be. Judging by where I am in the notebook, I have some idea if I'm on track or not. Using the word count option in MS Word might provide the same benefit if you compose onscreen.

[theneffzoo]

I'm a new writer, so take this with that in mind...

FWIW
One trick I've learned is to type 'Chapter ##' and leave it at the end of my word processor document as I type. Then I type in 'Chapter 1', 2, 3... etc. as I start each new chapter (but I still leave the ## at the bottom).

Anytime I want to see how long my current chapter is getting, I just use the search feature and type in the word 'Chapter'. The box at the side brings up all the chapters in order, with the 'Chapter ##' at the end. I can mouse over the last one and then the ## and look at the page number that shows when I do that, then just do the math. When I get to the point where approx. 15-20 pages have been typed, I find a good stopping point (hook) and start a new chapter. So far, it has worked out pretty well when it comes to lining up with my plot notes.

[dangerousbill]

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Let’s assume you have a target word count for the finished story of between 80k and 100k. How do you control the word count for each individual part of the story so that the entire package comes out the right size?

That's a tough question. I'm a pantser, which makes it difficult to predict how long a story will be before I start writing. Even though I may have an outline, it's not much help in judging final length. I write each chapter until it's done, then I stop, whatever the word count. Often, I abandon the outline altogether as the characters take over and tell me where the story should go.

In my first attempt at a novel, when I looked up from my keyboard to see how much I'd written, it came out to 215,000 words, far too much to simply cut paragraphs and words. It sits, lonely and forgotten, on my hard drive.

My next attempt came to a logical end at 42500 words. But I was able to add two chapters in the middle to push it just over 50000.

After that, story length came naturally. I generally keep track of my word count as I'm writing, and I adjust my story as needed as I go along. For instance, when I'm at 50% of the target word count, I try to envision the rest of the story and adjust it if needed. I do the same at 75%. After that, it's pretty much of a skate home.

The novel I just finished was targeted at 60000-80000 words. I fell a little short when I realized that a different ending would be more powerful and surprising, and plant the seeds for a sequel. I ended up at 57500, which was close enough when I submitted it.

[rainsmom]

I am allll about structure. I used to write screenplays, and what I learned in that world applies VERY well here. There are people who argue that the novel has no reason to follow such strict structure, but I disagree completely. When it doesn't, the pacing feels horribly off to me.

Google Alexandra Sokoloff. She's a former screenwriter who now writes novels. She also teaches occasional classes on applying screenplay structure to novels. (And she may have written a book on the subject.)

[Jaligard]

Figuring out how you write is an important step. Lots of people work well with outlines; others can't stand them. I don't like to start a project until I know pretty well how it goes. You'll need to figure out what works for you.

For me, the big jump was in figuring out how to break the novel into smaller scenes in the first place. The psychology of it. A novel is scary when you try to manage the whole of it in your head, but when you realize you're probably only writing fifty scenes--could be more, could be less--it's no so bad. Some will be big scenes, some will be little scenes. But making that mental jump--you don't have to write the whole novel all at once--was the trick that gave me my first draft.

Good luck figuring it out yourself. I'm sure it will be a different method that works for you than it was for me, so I can't really offer a technique.

[rainsmom]

Act 1 is roughly 1/4 of the final word count. Act II is roughly half. Act III is the final quarter. These are screenplay breakdown, but they work FABULOUSLY with novels. Understanding what happens within the acts -- and when -- can help you figure out when key events should happen within your novel. Nail it, and you'll also nail your pacing.

Google Alexandra Sokoloff. She's a former screenplay writer who now writes novels. She has written a LOT about applying screenplay structure to novels.

[tko]

If you've done enough reading, looking at writers you admire, and kind of follow their style, it should come close.

I just finished my 1st novel draft, goal was 100,000 words, came in at 110,000. Further editing will shorten it, so I'm maybe only 5% off at most, probably acceptable. I kind of intended it to be over rather than under, so not bad.

I didn't worry about chapters, scenes, or anything, just told the story with the same amount of detail I saw in other novels. If I can do it so can you.

[jaksen]

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Let’s assume you have a target word count for the finished story of between 80k and 100k. How do you control the word count for each individual part of the story so that the entire package comes out the right size?

I don't know how I know. I just do. It's like some part of my genotype came equipped with just knowing this stuff. Not all of it. Not everything about writing. But this must be coded into me.

[thothguard51]

The scene ends where a scene ends. A chapter ends where a chapter ends. The book ends when everything is brought to a conclusion, no matter the number of chapters.

Different genres have different styles based on reader expectations, so there really is no single mold to go by. Look at Stephen King, his books are getting longer compared to his first book, Carrie..

[theneffzoo]

Considering that scenes (and even the plot itself) sometimes take on a life of their own as one writes, how do you determine where chapter breaks should be?
Is there a hard and fast rule?
(obviously a long term shift in POV would qualify)

[Greeble]

What are these "scenes" and "chapters" you keep talking about.

[jaksen]

Originally Posted by theneffzoo

Considering that scenes (and even the plot itself) sometimes take on a life of their own as one writes, how do you determine where chapter breaks should be?
Is there a hard and fast rule?
(obviously a long term shift in POV would qualify)

You just know. It ends where it ends and the new one begins where it begins.

Not all things need be explained.

[dangerousbill]

Originally Posted by Bs_08

i would never do that. some chapters deserve to be 5000+ words, some chapters deserve to be 1000 words. it's totally dependent on what's happening in the story. if you set up artificial limits for your chapters you will be handcuffing yourself.

Indeed. My most recent novel had chapters ranging from 1400 words to 3700. If a scene were to run longer than that, though, I found a way to cut them in half. This happened about twice.

Transitioning chapters takes some practice. Normally, you might want to wind up a scene, but you have to leave a reader a good reason to keep reading. So there have to be some loose ends or suspenseful bits to sucker them on into the next chapter.

This most recent novel is being serialized, too. That means that each section, of about five chapters each, has to have an extra strong hook to make the reader go back to the site and buy the next installment.