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Tate Publishing

ResearchGuy

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. . . better off paying for an independent editor. . . . .
Maybe in theory. But in real life, many cannot afford the price, or are unwilling to pay it even if they could scrape up the thousands of dollars. And many manuscripts have zero chance of ever being made into commercially viable books no matter how well edited because the author, subject, or both are of so little interest to anyone outside the author's own friends and family. I speak from experience.

It is just false that every book can, with enough editing, be made commercially viable. And many with a manuscript have no intention of becoming a "professional author." They have one book in them, period. Again, I speak from experience. Subsidy/vanity publishing is the ONLY choice for them, other than abandoning any hope of seeing the manuscript in book form.

I should add . . . many completely lack any skills for self-publishing (even for managing their way through Lulu or Createspace). Again: experience speaking.

--Ken
 
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ctripp

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And many with a manuscript have no intention of becoming a "professional author."

Ken, I think you've hit it on the head there. Many of us, myself included, work toward making this a career and as such, accept (not happily:) that a career takes work and time. An Accountant doesn't just say, I think I will BE an Accountant now.... they need to pay for schooling, they need to apprentice for little if any money, same can be said for many a profession. Others of us just want one book to hold, to say we have written a book. Then there are the serious self publishers, who don't just enjoy the writing side of the industry, but the whole process and very likely have a strong business sense.
For the record (re: new authors/illustrators being published) it certainly DOES happen and often! After a year of promotion (with no success, just rejections) I got my first illustration contract with Scholastic for an 18 book ed series. After that more pub work, off and on. (usually more off:) Finally a series of 3 Trade books to Illustrate and the Author I was paired with by the Publisher was brand new, never published. So, yep it happens but usually only after a lot of dogged determination to make this a long lasting career.
 

herdon

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Maybe in theory. But in real life, many cannot afford the price, or are unwilling to pay it even if they could scrape up the thousands of dollars.

If they can't scrape up the money for independent editing, they can't afford "subsidy" publishing.

Subsidy/vanity publishing is the ONLY choice for them, other than abandoning any hope of seeing the manuscript in book form.
It's quite obviously not the only choice for them. You even contradict this statement with your next statement:

I should add . . . many completely lack any skills for self-publishing (even for managing their way through Lulu or Createspace). Again: experience speaking.

While this statement contradicts your assertion that vanity press is the only option for these authors, it's actually quite incorrect to even say that the choice is between vanity publishing and self publishing. There are PoD publishers and/or electronic publishers that are viable options. They can take chances on books without a wide audience because they don't have the upfront costs of a commercial publisher. They also don't charge the author.

But for those that can't hook on with a PoD publisher, self-publishing is a better option than "subsidy" publishing. It's a cheaper option that allows the author much greater control.

And just as your assertion that vanity/subsidy publishing is the "ONLY" option available for these authors (an assertion you quite quickly contradicted), your implication that those who are unable to publish through places like Lulu because they lack the skills must go to a subsidy or vanity publisher is also quite incorrect. There is nothing stopping a person from hiring a freelancer to format the manuscript and/or create some cover art. That's just part of self-publishing.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that subsidy and vanity publishing doesn't have its place. If someone has plenty of extra cash and their main goal is to put one of their books on their own bookshelf with as little work on their part as possible, I think they are quite viable options.

But that's quite a different audience than the author whose book is either very regional or very niche thus precluding them from going with a commercial publisher. That author certainly has choices beyond subsidy/vanity.
 
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victoriastrauss

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It is just false that every book can, with enough editing, be made commercially viable.

And many unscrupulous/unqualified editors are making a nice income from that false belief.

Subsidy/vanity publishing is the ONLY choice for them, other than abandoning any hope of seeing the manuscript in book form.
I agree with you. But there's no need for them to spend thousands of dollars on this--there's a variety of lower-cost, efficient options available. Unfortunately, it's hard for writers to take this rational approach and give up the dream, even in the face of massive rejection--which is why so many are so vulnerable to the blandishments of less-than-forthright pay-to-play companies that present themselves as "real" publishers.

- Victoria
 

ResearchGuy

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. . . the author whose book is either very regional or very niche . . . .
For some the niche is quite literally their own family and friends and their own egos. Their friends and family will expect free copies of the book -- and the egos have inflated, unrealistic expectations of public demand for the book.

--Ken
 

herdon

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For some the niche is quite literally their own family and friends and their own egos. Their friends and family will expect free copies of the book -- and the egos have inflated, unrealistic expectations of public demand for the book.

Which is why I targeted those that fit that profile who have ample spare money and want to do as little work as possible in getting the book to a printed state as being a fine fit for subsidy/vanity publishing.

But that's quite a bit different than your sweeping statement of the choices being either commercial publishing or paying a vanity press. Quite a few other choices (and for most, better choices) beyond vanity.
 

DreamWeaver

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Interesting discussion, but perhaps we are getting a bit far afield? ;)
 

herdon

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Interesting discussion, but perhaps we are getting a bit far afield? ;)

Not really. It's a discussion about subsidy/vanity publishers in a thread devoted to a subsidy/vanity publisher. I'd think anyone weighing Tate Publishing as an option should know what other options might exist. Not that I think we need pages devoted to the subject, but a few posts on the topic seems quite appropriate.

I do agree that it's just about run its course, which is why I didn't respond earlier this morning.
 

JenniferPereyra

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Hello All!

I hope you are all doing well!

I hope those of you that are in the Philadelphia market will tune in on Monday, April 25th to the ABC6 News 5pm broadcast. As the author of Mommy & Daddy Work to Make Some Dough, I am being featured (only about 20-30 seconds) as part of a longer segment on working parents. If you can't see it, I will try to get a vid posted to my website which is www.jenniferpereyra.tateauthor.com

As a side note, I don't know of any vanity press that has a marketing rep and a publicist working on their authors' books that has been able to secure that type of exposure for an author; especially in a market like Philadelphia which is the 4th largest media market behind NY, LA, and Chicago.

All the best....happy writing and happy selling!

Jen
 

Chris P

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Congratulations, Jennifer! I hope it goes well.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Look at this! Over at the Tate Blog:

Sunday, April 3, 2011

TATE PUBLISHING AND THE FACTS ABOUT "YOG'S LAW"


Followers,

A few years ago an individual created out of thin air a concept he called "Yog's Law." I have no idea who "Yog" is or what planet he may be from but just like Superman there is "kryptonite" in this concept and that "kryptonite" is the facts.

You don't know who Yog is? Maybe I can help you out: http://tinyurl.com/3m8rdan

But since I've answered one of your questions, maybe you can answer one of mine: Where did Dr. Tate get his Ph.D? What university, what year, what subject?
 

herdon

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Rather funny how the big bad publishers pay tens of thousands of dollars as an advance and -- in a quite evil twist -- expect the authors to pay it back through their royalties!

You mean an advance isn't really a gift...?
 

JenniferPereyra

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James

I am really surprised by your latest post about Tate being liars. Up until this point I had thought that you wanted to have an open and honest conversation about Tate. In particular, your previous post to me where you had stated that if Tate is able to help me sell more books through channels other than myself that you would eat whatever hat I might specify. That led me to believe that you were sincere in engaging in this discussion but at this point, I am starting to question your intent.

I think that other than the reference to Yog (which from what I understand is a nickname of sorts created off of a fictional character?), the post by Dr. Tate actually proves your point about money always flowing to the author. The fault in Yog's Law is that it does not provide for a set point in time at which one should take stock of his or her net gains or losses. See, if at the end of the day, my $4K gets refunded to me and I end up netting a profit on top of that, well, technically that should meet your definition of money always flowing towards the author. Perhaps your statement is oversimplistic but written as is, could be left open to many interpretations. Which as you know, when dealing with writers, is bound to happen.

I read the history and your story of the origin of your plight to inform other writers to be aware of unscrupulous business practices. I couldn't agree with you more because there are many scam artists out there. Tate, however, as hard as you or Victoria may try to prove it, just aren't part of that bunch.

I had previously suggested that Victoria reach out to her readers to see if they would view it as her accepting a gift for being reimbursed by Tate to travel to their offices to which I received no response. If she is not interested in allowing Tate to reimburse her, then why not go on her own dime and write it off as a business expense? As writers, if we are to be objective, we should look at all sides of a story and try to gather as much reaearch as possible. I guess I'm not sure as to why she wouldn't go. The only conclusion that I can possibly come to is that perhaps she is afraid that she might actually like what she sees and that might be too much to deal with after all of these years of writing such negative things about Tate.

James, I, like you, believe in providing the general public with all of the facts so they can make informed decisions that best meet their specific needs which is why I came her in the first place. I believe that is what your original intent was in writing Yog's law. I also believe that is what Anne's and Victoria's original intents were. However, I'm starting to get the feeling that you are all just writing to defend your point of view and not really to seek the truth.

To be honest, at the end of the day, I don't really care where Dr. Tate got his PhD from. It could be from the school of hard knocks or it could be some honorary degree given to him. I don't know and to me, that is besides the point. At the end of the day, what is important to me as an author is that he has been smart enough to hire the right people to work with him that will give me and my book our best possible chance for success. Sorry, but to me, that is more of a personal attack and is immaterial to the issues being discussed here.

I find it surprising that very few responded to my recent posts about Tate securing me a spot (however short it may be) on the most watched news channel in the Philadelphia market which happens to be the 4th largest media market in the United States. Like I stated previously, I'm not aware of any vanity presses that provide that type of marketing and publicity support. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Just one last observation on your post. I find it interesting that you got so upset about Tate writing about you and your beliefs on one of their blogs when this has been commonplace for you to do over the years through the forums you frequent. Please believe me when I tell you that I don't say that in an argumentative way, rather, it's simply an observation.

One final question...am I correct to assume that none of you have ever paid a dime out of your pockets (beyond the necessary writing tools) for illustrations, editing, layout design, marketing, or publicists? I'm just curious.

As always, all the best!

Happy writing and happy selling!!

Jen
 

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at this point, I am starting to question your intent.

Jennifer, I don't think James is here right now but I am happy to vouch for him. I've known him online for some years now, and can guarantee that his intent is to do his best to give writers good, solid advice.

I think that other than the reference to Yog (which from what I understand is a nickname of sorts created off of a fictional character?)

James is the Yog in question. He is Yog, and he wrote Yog's law.

if at the end of the day, my $4K gets refunded to me and I end up netting a profit on top of that, well, technically that should meet your definition of money always flowing towards the author.

Well, no. Because you've had to pay out that $4k in the first place, which represents a pretty large amount of money flowing away from you.

As an aside, how many authors have been refunded their $4k by Tate? I'd love to know.

I had previously suggested that Victoria reach out to her readers to see if they would view it as her accepting a gift for being reimbursed by Tate to travel to their offices to which I received no response. ... The only conclusion that I can possibly come to is that perhaps she is afraid that she might actually like what she sees and that might be too much to deal with after all of these years of writing such negative things about Tate.

There are other conclusions that you could come to: for example, Victoria might feel that such a visit would benefit no one as Tate would only show her what it wanted her to see, and so on. I don't think your speculation is valuable here.

James, ... I'm starting to get the feeling that you are all just writing to defend your point of view and not really to seek the truth.

Again, you're speculating and it's not doing you any favours.

One final question...am I correct to assume that none of you have ever paid a dime out of your pockets (beyond the necessary writing tools) for illustrations, editing, layout design, marketing, or publicists? I'm just curious.

I have had over 20 books published, and hundreds of articles and stories published in various newspapers and magazines. I have been paid an advance for every single book; I have been paid a fee for most of those articles and stories. I have never, ever paid anything for any of the things you've listed. Never. Every piece has been edited, typeset, designed and so on; the books have all been marketed and promoted by my publishers; and I've never had to pay a penny. Writers don't pay for these things when they're published by good trade publishers: only when they're published by vanity presses.
 

Calla Lily

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One final question...am I correct to assume that none of you have ever paid a dime out of your pockets (beyond the necessary writing tools) for illustrations, editing, layout design, marketing, or publicists? I'm just curious.


Jen

Jen, this is correct. My publisher paid me an advance. I haven't paid one cent for anything: editing, design, publicity, marketing, reviews, interviews, signings. Not a penny.
 

Chris P

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I paid for a fee to enter a novella contest. The fee was equal to a one-year subscription to the magazine, which they sent, I read, and I enjoyed. None of the short story outlets charged me anything; not even postage as they were all electronic submissions. Shoot, PublishAmerica didn't even charge me anything.
 

herdon

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The fault in Yog's Law is that it does not provide for a set point in time at which one should take stock of his or her net gains or losses. See, if at the end of the day, my $4K gets refunded to me and I end up netting a profit on top of that, well, technically that should meet your definition of money always flowing towards the author.

It would not meet his definition of money always flowing to the writer. You're skipping one very important word in Yog's Law: always.

Commercial publishing works by a writer writing a book, submitting it to a publisher without a fee and being accepted without a fee. Rather, a successful publisher will pay the author upon acceptance. It's called an advance.

Tate's blog seem to take a negative stance on advances, pointing out how the writer who was paid $50,000 for writing her book in advance then got a royalty statement on book sales where the royalties went to pay off the advance. Maybe Tate doesn't understand the concept, but an advance is an advance on royalties.

An advance is similar to a free loan since it is giving you money now that you will in turn pay off as your book sells, but it's not actually a loan. In fact, it would be fair to say that an advance is guaranteed sales. Even if a book never sells enough copies for the royalties to pay off the advance, the writer doesn't have to pay anything to the publisher. (Money always flows to the writer.)

Let's compare:

Tate's publishing model is to ask for thousands of dollars from the author to publish the book and then, after it is published, maybe they'll make it back with sales.

Successful commercial publishers give the author an advance as a form of guaranteed sales.

Tate's blog seems to imply that these same publishers don't market the books. These are publishers that have already given out $10k, $25k, $50k or more to the author as guaranteed sales. Do you honestly believe the publishers aren't marketing the books? That would be a little naive.

The most important forms of marketing that successful publishers do for their authors and their books is rather invisible to the author. The most important marketing is to market a book to book sellers like Barnes and Noble in order to get the book into thousands of physical 'brick and mortar' stores. There's no form of marketing -- including book signings, etc. -- that beats being on the shelf of every Barnes and Noble in America.
 

brianm

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I find it surprising that very few responded to my recent posts about Tate securing me a spot (however short it may be) on the most watched news channel in the Philadelphia market which happens to be the 4th largest media market in the United States. Like I stated previously, I'm not aware of any vanity presses that provide that type of marketing and publicity support. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's because we are all trying not to rain too hard on your parade.

Publish America authors secure local TV station interviews on a regular basis. It is not difficult for a vanity published author to obtain a local TV interview or a local book signing.

To verify this information, you need simply visit the PAMB and read PA author posts in regards to their local TV appearances and book signings.

Your enthusiasm is admirable and we all sincerely wish you the very best. I wish you did not have to learn the hard way about the real world of publishing and Tate's true business model, but judging from your posts it seems that is the only way you will learn.

~brianm~
 

CaoPaux

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I find it surprising that very few responded to my recent posts about Tate securing me a spot (however short it may be) on the most watched news channel in the Philadelphia market which happens to be the 4th largest media market in the United States. Like I stated previously, I'm not aware of any vanity presses that provide that type of marketing and publicity support. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
How many books have you bought as a direct result of seeing them promoted on that (or any) news show? What percentage are from authors you never heard of before that news spot? How many books have your friends and family bought as a direct result of seeing them promoted on that (or any) news show? What percentage are from authors they never heard of before that news spot?

Personally, the closest I've come is seeing "you know that book from YouKnowWho you were waiting for? It's out now! And he's holding a signing at LocalBookStore on your side of town!" I didn't make the signing, but I put the store on my errand list to see if there were any signed copies left. There weren't, so I waited for the paperback. :cool: